[Ufkkrxcq]

I've never seen magic work (That could not be explained by science). I have seen science work though. My trust is in that which I can see, I can experiance, I can feel. Not in what I want to be there, unfortunatly.

I think a lot of it is comfort. +shrugs+ You want something so much you are going to "find" personal proof. In my opinion it is all psychological. Not saying you don't have a right to believe in it

[Bonioners]

I've never seen magic work (That could not be explained by science). I have seen science work though. My trust is in that which I can see, I can experiance, I can feel. Not in what I want to be there, unfortunatly.

I think a lot of it is comfort. +shrugs+ You want something so much you are going to "find" personal proof. In my opinion it is all psychological. Not saying you don't have a right to believe in it

Inclined to agree with you. If someone willingly spreads disinformation it starts to become pretty crappy though.

[rfceicizgm]

I've never seen magic work (That could not be explained by science). I have seen science work though. My trust is in that which I can see, I can experiance, I can feel. Not in what I want to be there, unfortunatly.

I think a lot of it is comfort. +shrugs+ You want something so much you are going to "find" personal proof. In my opinion it is all psychological. Not saying you don't have a right to believe in it

If you haven't felt or experienced magic, it's not magic's fault, it's your fault. Shallow minded pop-science chimps wasting their time at occult forums repeating the same shallow bs again and again will never experience magic. Go read some Stephen Hawking book noob.

[AALee]

Perhaps you both mean different things by magic?

[Wetekemieluth]

If you haven't felt or experienced magic, it's not magic's fault, it's your fault. Shallow minded pop-science chimps wasting their time at occult forums repeating the same shallow bs again and again will never experience magic. Go read some Stephen Hawking book noob.

Now now, we're all just having a friendly chat, they are as entitled to an opinion as you or I.

I've never seen magic work (That could not be explained by science). I have seen science work though. My trust is in that which I can see, I can experiance, I can feel. Not in what I want to be there, unfortunatly.

I think a lot of it is comfort. +shrugs+ You want something so much you are going to "find" personal proof. In my opinion it is all psychological. Not saying you don't have a right to believe in it Well, magick is not something you see or don't see work. Let me put it into terms you might understand, when one preforms a spell, what they do is they gather energy (QP: waves, the stuff reality is made from.) and charge it with mental intent (will, a part of the "mental superhighway" that keeps us all seeing the same shit when we look at a bug), then send it out into the higher frequencies (realities) the wave affects other waves subtly, mingling with them, tugging at them like a puppetmaster to bring about the desired event. It works with the path of least resistance, thus, when I cast a money spell, thousand dollar bills don't shoot out of my arse. hahah. But, I might find a 20 on the sidewalk and/or get a promotion at my job.

Now, I won't deny that some people want to see their magick happen so badly that they make themselves see it, but, it DOES happen. One of my students, Sarah, I had her do a weather spell for one of her first tests, she had a date with her boyfriend the next day and wanted snow, so, I helped her along a bit (with the energy gathering) and the next day it was so heavily snowy that he almost crashed his truck bringing her to the skating rink, now, is that just good timing? Maybe, but I don't think so. Why? What is my proof? Every- not just sometimes- but every time I have cast a weather spell, it happens. It creates change. I don't watch the weather, so it isn't like I see a snowstorm coming then run outside to call the white stuff down. It just happens.

Another example would be, I had a friend, Emmy, she was going off to the military in Fall of last year, now, this is in Nevada, it does not snow in the fall, hell, some people say we don't even have a Fall (We do.). So, I told her I'll make it snow in the Fall for her, she didn't believe me. (We had a 100 degree summer).
So, I do my thing.
Guess what happens come Fall?
Snow.

[Nashhlkq]

If you haven't felt or experienced magic, it's not magic's fault, it's your fault. Shallow minded pop-science chimps wasting their time at occult forums repeating the same shallow bs again and again will never experience magic. Go read some Stephen Hawking book noob.

Please keep it civilized. Even though I agree with your idea, I will not have fights in my thread. They haven't insulted us, so you must not insult them, lest a flame war starts.

Thank you.

[wiweimeli]

I think he means to say he has not experienced "vulgar forms" of magick.
That is to say, nothing like the movies.
No fire balls shooting out of wands, no flying witches riding broomsticks under the full moon, no withering death curse that worked, no glowing spirit come to give a message. Nothing of that sort.

Mostly, magick, is subtle. You won't really notice it unless you mixed up in it, looking for it. You do a spell, you get what you want. Personally, I've caused a house to be burned down, made a doll that hosts the violent spirit of a killer (which has cause many people to injure themselves while holding it), called up a ghost and got an audible response with three other people to verify the event, made a man crash his truck into another car, recieved large sums of money, and battled nasty spirits. Much more, but thats just some of the stuff that sticks out.

Now, most of them, were what you might call coincidence. The money didn't just show up out of thin air. I find it on the ground or someone means to give me a dollar tip but had a fifty dollar bill folded up in there by accident. The house was later scheduled for a controlled burn by the fire department. The doll just makes people hurt their hands usually, even when they don't know about the doll. Totally natural means of occuring.

If you are looking for vulgar magick, good luck. It's hard to find. Not impossible though.

Magick works on atheists, but they won't notice or, like it has been said, they will nullify the effects just because of their stance on things. Think about it, they banish with laughter. "Magick? why you delusion asshat hahahahah". Bam. They are better at it than most of us wizards are.

You should read up on anthropologist who actually encounter the supernatural. One guy saw an honest to god resurrection of a corpse with glowing magick beams and everything. Another guy got mixed up in Malay magick and drank charmed water (with effect) and was given a real life magick amulet that did spooky things. Check it out, great stuff.

[E4qC1qQ5]

I do not mean hollywood magic. I mean Magic. The thing we have been talking about.
I used to study the occult like I have stated before, and I also used ot be wiccan. I am not arguing, I am only stating my opinions.
I don't see why one of the members here saw fit to be extremely rude to me, but what ever.
I have studied this, I have been around the occoult community for awhile(I just change my name and don't draw attention to myself). 6 or 7 years to be precise. have seen no evidence of magic, subtle or no, in that time.

Personal encounters mean nothing to me. Unless it happens to me personally, I do not take others experiances as fact. People lie. People misinterpret things as supernatural.
I have never seen a spell work that wasn't something that could have happened anyway without the spell. In the same vein, praying has never worked, and thats toned down spell casting in my opinion.

And a note, if anyone else would like to insult me just because i believe something different than you, do it through pm and don't show your ignorance in public. It's embarresing.

[secondmortgages]

I do not mean hollywood magic. I mean Magic. The thing we have been talking about.
I used to study the occult like I have stated before, and I also used ot be wiccan. I am not arguing, I am only stating my opinions.
I don't see why one of the members here saw fit to be extremely rude to me, but what ever.
I have studied this, I have been around the occoult community for awhile(I just change my name and don't draw attention to myself). 6 or 7 years to be precise. have seen no evidence of magic, subtle or no, in that time.

Personal encounters mean nothing to me. Unless it happens to me personally, I do not take others experiances as fact. People lie. People misinterpret things as supernatural.
I have never seen a spell work that wasn't something that could have happened anyway without the spell. In the same vein, praying has never worked, and thats toned down spell casting in my opinion.

And a note, if anyone else would like to insult me just because i believe something different than you, do it through pm and don't show your ignorance in public. It's embarresing.

Ha Ha Ha Do you call that an insult? What an emotional "man of science" you are. As I mentioned before, all you do is keep repeating the same bs, like "personal encounters mean nothing to me", "I have never seen a spell work", even in your latest post. You never say anything constructive. You know what? If you're such a big science freak, show us some empirical evidence that magic doesn't work. That would be fun. Until then, you're nothing but another guy with his own subjective and newbish opinion lol.

[johobuo]

I don't have to prove a negative. There is no scientific data saying magic exists. Tghe ones trying to prove then egative need ot provide the proof.
I have reported your post. Try ot be civil, I have not insulted ANYONE on this board and i do not deserve this treatment.

[d1Bc25UP]

show us some empirical evidence that magic doesn't work. http://www.phact.org/e/z/enright.txt

The long and the short of it is that dowsing performance in the Scheunen experiments was not reproducible. It was not reproducible inter-individually: from a pool of some 500 self-proclaimed dowsers, the researchers selected for their critical experiments 43 candidates whom they considered most promising on the basis of preliminary testing; but the investigators themselves ended up being impressed with only a few of the performances of only a small handful from that select group. And, even more troublesome for the hypothesis, dowsing performance was not reproducible intra-individually: those few dowsers, who on one occasion or another seemed to do relatively well, were in their other comparable test series usually no more successful than the rest of the "unskilled" dowsers (Enright “Water Dowsing: the Scheunen Experiments,” Naturwissenschaften, vol. 82 1995). Challenge Applications - JREF Forum

Every single one of those occult practitioners failed even preliminary tests.

Long and short: there's empirical evidence. You're giving this guy a hard time unnecessarily.

Edit: Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying, I'm not saying magick does not exist, I'm simply stating that there're a lot of bullcrap claimants out there which failed rigorous trials.

[rarpAcconavox]

That some fakers failed some tests doesn't mean that magic doesn't work. What you provided is a funny joke, not empirical evidence.

[MaigicyuNinia]

Thank you Plarkenstorf.

[myspacepro]

not empirical evidence. Empirical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Empirical evidence can sometimes be flawed, certainly. But there is empirical evidence out there that a lot of experienced practitioners of magic fall flat when tested under scientific rigor.

Edit: To Yodatalk. No worries.

[BrodiKennedy]

That some fakers failed some tests doesn't mean that magic doesn't work. What you provided is a funny joke, not empirical evidence.

To yoda-the-crying-insulted-little-boy: I've never insulted you. Something's wrong with your nerves man. Or maybe you're just another emo kid, who knows. Regarding your post, If science is so omnipotent it should be able to disprove the existence of magic. So don't make excuses.

PS. "experienced practitioners of magic" don't go to freakshows lol

[Lidawka]

Hey Yoda, have you been kicked out of the Maths forum for being too emo or what? Really, what are you doing here? Practicing how to make infertile and aimless arguments or what? 'Cause all I hear from you is unsubstantiated garbage.

[SueveDobe]

PS. "experienced practitioners of magic" don't go to freakshows lol

No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They thought it was magic, it's within what is generally defined as magic.

Hey Yoda, have you been kicked out of the Maths forum for being too emo or what? Really, what are you doing here? Practicing how to make infertile and aimless arguments or what? 'Cause all I hear from you is unsubstantiated garbage.

Why're you continuing to insult him?

[autoloanexpert]

1. "Generally" ? Sorry dude but you represent science here, so I want concrete stuff from you. + formal logic and all that stuff. Oh, and clowning around with symbols from logic like you did in some former post of yours is not good enough, sorry.

2. I've never insulted Yoda. He's just immature and emotional, that's all.

[Anykeylo]

I wonder if true atheists are immune to any forms of magick. By true atheist I mean a person who honestly doesn't believe in any forms of magick, deietes, occult and spirituality.

There is a saying that if you don't believe in magick you can't do magick. I wonder if it applies to the one whom magick is casted as well. I have met people who practice such arts (some on the "darker" side) and they sustain truly atheistic persons are immune to magick (they can't cast nor can it affect them). Of course, I have met those who pretend they can prove the opposite.

I guess this happens to pure atheists only. If you have an ounce of doubt regarding your atheist belief magick can affect you in a way.

What do you believe ? Any thoughts ?

[Frogzlovzy]

Now there's a good question. I remember a conversation I had with a small group of people years ago. One of them, an atheist said all magical effects on people were explainable by suggestion. He gave several instances... a sorcerer points a stick or bone at a victim and curses them. Over the next few days the person grows ill and dies. Another instance was a so-called "gypsy curse" in which the Gypsy stares at a victim and pronounces a single word with ominous meaning. The word is implanted in the victim and has an increasing effect upon them.

The reply to that was from a person I know to be a powerful magician. He said that those methods were easy to do and of certain effect on believers living in communities who also believe in these methods, but in communities that do not support these beliefs or when dealing with atheists, the best course of action complete secrecy. Everything is to be done in secret and any magical artifacts such as dolls, amulets, etc. were to be hidden where the target would pass near them but never discover them. It was assured that ignorance of the magic (especially a curse) allowed for a greater chance of success. Especially if there were atheists involved. The magician said results in this type of magic cannot be explained by suggestion. The atheist in the conversation said he didn't believe any effect at all could be had at all unless the person to be influenced was made aware of the intended effect and believed that it was possible.

Given a few years of experience and reflection, I am siding with my magician friend.