[Piemonedmow]

Hi all,

I just wanted to ask for a little advice and maybe some practical suggestions in particular. My partner and I have been thinking about marriage recently, and have decided to approach his priest about this. My partner is a Russian national and a member of the Russian Orthodox Church, although he lives in England and we think we would probably marry in England. I am high-church Anglican, and English.

We are of course going to see what advice we can get from our respective churches, but I would like to know if anyone has any thoughts on how we might approach the ceremony, and whether there are any questions we might need to consider. I would be especially keen to hear from anyone who has seen or participated in (in whatever capacity) a marriage between an Orthodox/ non-Orthodox couple. I am trying to think not only of theological questions, but also questions of cultural practice and even of language, since I speak very little Russian and my family speak none at all, while my bilingual partner's family speak little English - and of course we would like our parents to be able to understand the service as much as possible.

Looking forward to your views,

Liz.

[kavaTeexy]

Congratulations on planing to get married Liz!

Pray a lot.

My husband and I got married last year in the Orthodox church in his homecity. My husband is by baptism RC (his parents are RC and Protestant), however we have been attending only the Orthodox Church since we have been together. God willing I pray and we have talked about him becoming Orthodox but since he became acquainted with Orthodoxy mainly through me, we are just allowing things to take their course since we both do not wish that he becomes Orthodox for me, but with his own resolve, will and for God. However we needed to get married before he converts so we got married in the Orthodox Church. There was only one priest and he was Orthodox.

Now since his family is not Orthodox and since my family is, and since they had also friends invited who are not Orthodox, I requested that the priest uses German language for the non-Orthodox and throw in here and there a tiny bit of Greek for my side. We (the Orthodox side) know the service and what is going on but the guests should know what is going on and it is only logical to be hospitable as Orthodox and allow the guests to enjoy and not to get bored with foreign languages and foreign ceremonies; and at the end the priest also explained the entire ceremony to the audience (in German) although I wanted to make little pamphlets to explain the ceremony to the guests however for lack of time we did not. It was better the priest told it because it had much more salt (he had a great way of telling things).

Praying for you.

[bZEUWO4F]

Hi all,

I just wanted to ask for a little advice and maybe some practical suggestions in particular. My partner and I have been thinking about marriage recently, and have decided to approach his priest about this. My partner is a Russian national and a member of the Russian Orthodox Church, although he lives in England and we think we would probably marry in England. I am high-church Anglican, and English.

We are of course going to see what advice we can get from our respective churches, but I would like to know if anyone has any thoughts on how we might approach the ceremony, and whether there are any questions we might need to consider. I would be especially keen to hear from anyone who has seen or participated in (in whatever capacity) a marriage between an Orthodox/ non-Orthodox couple. I am trying to think not only of theological questions, but also questions of cultural practice and even of language, since I speak very little Russian and my family speak none at all, while my bilingual partner's family speak little English - and of course we would like our parents to be able to understand the service as much as possible.

Looking forward to your views,

Liz.

Hello, Liz! Not married myself but I've seen enough mixed couples get married. ETA: when I say mixed, it's more of a case of the families of one or both families NOT being Orthodox. I've seen the non-Orthodox mothers of a fairly new convert bride throw a hissy fit at the length of the ceremony (about 1 hour in the States), as well as there not being able to be instrumental classical music, to the fact that the bride couldn't have a strapless dress, or that family members had to dress more modestly with no low-cut tops. I've helped plan two weddings like this. In one, both the bride and the groom were fairly new converts, with most of each family very unhappy about the conversion/it being an Orthodox wedding. Boy, I hope I never have to deal with anything like that again. Not pleasant!

You first of all need to sit down with your boyfriend's priest. I'd suggest taking proof of your Anglican baptism (certificate). There are things with planning an Orthodox wedding that are different than planning an Anglican wedding.

First of all, there is no choice in the matter of Scriptural readings for Orthodox weddings, as there are with Episcopalians (Anglicans) in the States. I have to assume it's similar with UK Anglicans. For Orthodox weddings, the readings are always the same. No secular music is allowed, including strings, harp, etc. The music beforehand will be Orthodox hymns, usually, in my experience, things such as the Psalms (Praise the Name of the Lord, etc.). You *might* have a small choice of hymns for before the ceremony, but it depends on the parish/priest/choir director.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but having your Anglican rector participate in the Orthodox ceremony is not possible. It's simply not allowed.

You also need to ask the priest about dress requirements. Modesty in dress in church is not something to be sneezed at and is taken very seriously by most Orthodox. The priest might tell you that you can't have a strapless dress or one with spaghetti straps. Low-cut dresses, bare shoulders, and bare backs are generally frowned upon. One option would be to get a dress with a short jacket that would cover bare shoulders/arms. You will probably have to consider the wedding crown when getting your veil. Again, ask the priest. Modest dress for wedding guests might need to be addressed. Some parishes will require a statement in the invitation that modest dress (no low-cut dresses, short skirts, bare shoulers) is required. Some churches require all women to cover their heads. If your boyfriend's church and priest require such things, find out much in advance so guests can be duly notified. That avoids embarrassment for guests. If women want to wear something less covered for the reception, they can wear a shawl or sweater for the ceremony.

There are also many days on which a wedding cannot be scheduled because of fasts. The Orthodox fast for something like half the year, so you can't pick a date, book the reception facility, and then expect the church to squeeze you in. You need to set the date with the priest and then book the reception facility. From late August to late November on the Old Calendar is actually the easiest time to schedule an Orthodox wedding, since for these three months, there are no long fasting periods. Among my circle, September and October are popular wedding months.

Sunday is the preferred day for Orthodox weddings, by far. Saturday weddings are usually frowned upon. Here in the States, Sundays weddings are usually any time between 2 and 4 pm, depending on when the Divine Liturgy finishes on Sunday morning.

Many priests require both the best man and maid/matron of honor to be Orthodox, although other attendants usually don't have to be. So you better check with the priest if this is required, before you ask a friend/relative who is not Orthodox, and have to back out of that choice.

Is your boyfriend's priest able to serve in both English and Slavonic? If so, I guess the best thing would be to do the ceremony half and half. Having the Epistle and Gospel readings done in both English and Slavonic might be something to consider.

Definitely look at having at least explanatory booklets done up in English. Are members of your boyfriend's family practicing Orthodox? If so, then I don't know if the explanatory booklets need to be in Russian, too, as they would know the ceremony. I'm OCA in the States and our national church has printed for years small booklets with the entire wedding ceremony in them, as well as some explanation. There are places online with the entire wedding ceremony in English. If you do a wedding website, perhaps you could include links to websites with explanations of Orthodox weddings in English. That way, people could have more info, if they wished. You might have some print-outs ready to give to older relatives who are not on the internet.

Just one last note: if you were even considering getting the marriage later blessed in the Anglican Church, that is likely not possible. The Orthodox are not to take part in the sacraments/ceremonies of other Christian bodies, and even the blessing of an already existing marriage would likely fall under this - and result in your boyfriend's being unable to partake of Orthodox sacraments (for a time, it's not permanent). So, if you were considering an Anglican wedding blessing after you were already married in the Orthodox Church, *please* mention this to your boyfriend's priest and ask for his input.

I don't want to seem so strict and such, but Orthodox weddings are so different from Anglican/Catholic/Protestant weddings that I felt it was better to lay it all out there for you now, so there are few surprises. Have you ever seen an Orthodox wedding? Perhaps you might be able to attend one at your boyfriend's parish. There's also a pretty average Orthodox wedding scene from the American film "The Deer Hunter" (set in the late 1960s). This clip is dubbed in Russian, but you get the idea (it doesn't show everything). The priest in the film is a real priest in the OCA. If you like the music at the beginning, it's the Archangelsky "Praise the Name of the Lord."

YouTube - Православие. Wedding orthodox in film " The deer hunter ".

[Sleedyhex]

Dear Liz,

The key difference between an Anglican wedding and an Orthodox marriage is that the former is a sanctified contract whereas the latter is a sacramental union. Accordingly, in the Orthodox sacrament, the couple say nothing - there is no exchange of vows and there is no pronouncement of being man and wife. The focal point of the sacrament is the crowning.

The marriage is just the beginning. How things will be thereafter depends quite a bit on how much of a practising Orthodox Christian your partner is, but since you describe yourselves as partners, I suppose he isn't the devout type. My wife is Russian and speaks fluent English. Her parents live in Moscow and I can't communicate with them because I can't speak Russian. It's a pity but it doesn't cause a problem. However, ours was not a mixed marriage - I had been Orthodox for some years when I met my wife. We were married in the Russian Cathedral in London and most of the service was in English because although all the guests were Orthodox, they were English, Greek and Cypriot as well as Russian. We did know a couple who were 'mixed' - she Greek, he Norwegian: what a contrast! Different cultures are enriching but can also bring challenges.

(Wasn't it a sin for a real priest to play-act a marriage in that film?)

[Sleedyhex]

Thanks for replies!

The suggestions about dress and language sound sensible and practical. Personally, although I love clothes, I never quite understood the idea of a very revealing wedding dress even in the Anglican Church. It's not something wrong, I suppose, but to me it has a distinctly uncomfortable feel. I mean, to stand up in front of a vicar half-dressed would just make me blush! But I haven't thought much about what to wear yet, it's not that important. I was just thinking - would I be able to carry flowers? And - this is something I actually object to on grounds of feminism, but I suspect my family would see it differently - would my father be able to walk with me or take me to the church door or some variation on the Anglican 'giving away'? My partner knows that the Orthodox church here is an ex-Anglican building, and he thought an Orthodox priest might marry us in an Anglican building, so long as there were the appropriate icons and so on. Has anyone heard of that?

Btw, I have no idea how one measures devotion, but my partner adheres to the fast, attends Church, prays, etc. I'm not sure that he's not devout - but 'partner' is the usual term over here for someone you are in a relationship with, once you're out of your teens and if the relationship is fairly committed (eg. one is considering marriage).

Many priests require both the best man and maid/matron of honor to be Orthodox, although other attendants usually don't have to be. So you better check with the priest if this is required, before you ask a friend/relative who is not Orthodox, and have to back out of that choice.

- I just thought about this, too - does one have to have a best man and maid of honour? (Not that I am not fond of my friends!)

[nitivearchit]

- I just thought about this, too - does one have to have a best man and maid of honour? (Not that I am not fond of my friends!)

You will need a koumbara/koumbaro (Greek terms) to place the crowns on your heads - rather like a maid of honour/best man but with something really important to do rather than just standing around looking pretty! Also remember wherever you marry you need two bodies to sign the register anyway. I don't see why an Orthodox priest wouldn't do an Orthodox wedding in an Anglican church but I could be wrong (often am). At least it would provide enough seats or else - no joke - you'll need to add comfy shoes to any dressing advice you give.

Andreas is from over here but perhaps he's just not very modern I am not very modern either but I used to work in the NHS and we referred in letters and casenotes to someone's 'partner' if they were obviously closely involved but not married and absolutely regardless of living arrangements but before that I assumed that 'partner' meant the person someone was living with. I don't date anymore but when I did it was always excruciatingly embarrassing to introduce some 40-something bloke as my 'boyfriend' so I never did and let people form their own conclusions - we do need language to catch up with practice in that area soon!

All else aside - congratulations - it is lovely to be planning a wedding even if only in your own head for the moment.

Regards
Margaret
in Edinburgh

[ArrereGarhync]

Thanks Margaret! And thanks for the wise words about terminology ;-)

[mQb0aVZe]

Thanks for replies!

The suggestions about dress and language sound sensible and practical. Personally, although I love clothes, I never quite understood the idea of a very revealing wedding dress even in the Anglican Church. It's not something wrong, I suppose, but to me it has a distinctly uncomfortable feel. I mean, to stand up in front of a vicar half-dressed would just make me blush! But I haven't thought much about what to wear yet, it's not that important. I was just thinking - would I be able to carry flowers? And - this is something I actually object to on grounds of feminism, but I suspect my family would see it differently - would my father be able to walk with me or take me to the church door or some variation on the Anglican 'giving away'? My partner knows that the Orthodox church here is an ex-Anglican building, and he thought an Orthodox priest might marry us in an Anglican building, so long as there were the appropriate icons and so on. Has anyone heard of that?

Btw, I have no idea how one measures devotion, but my partner adheres to the fast, attends Church, prays, etc. I'm not sure that he's not devout - but 'partner' is the usual term over here for someone you are in a relationship with, once you're out of your teens and if the relationship is fairly committed (eg. one is considering marriage).

Liz, as for the difference in terminology - in the States "partner" is used for those involved in a homosexual relationship or a heterosexual couple involved in a long-term relationship not intending to be married. So you will not find "partner" in general use in by Christians here in the States due to the association with non-Christian relationships. Boyfriend is used regardless of age. Although if you're talking marriage, I guess we could use fiance

Your father very well will NOT be able to "give you away." There's usually no walk up the aisle. The first part of the Orthodox wedding service, the betrothal, is held in the narthex, or the very back of the church. Then when it's time for the crowning portion, the priest leads the couple up the aisle into the middle of the nave. For those non-Orthodox families who can't bear to part with the "giving the bride away" or the like, the bride's father will often walk here to the back of nave/narthex, where the betrothal will take place.

Yes, you can carry flowers, although when you're handed a lighted candle, you'll have to hand your flowers off to someone.

Orthodox weddings must be held in an Orthodox Church building, if such a one is around. We don't do garden weddings or the like. So if your fiance's parish has a church of its own (or rented facilities), then that's what you would have to use. Many Orthodox parishes in the States have converted buildings that used to belong to another Christian body. Getting married in a church building, currently in use as an Anglican church, is not possible. Just adding a few icons doesn't make a church building "Orthodox." That's another question to ask his priest, although it probably would not be allowed.

[illetrygrargo]

The suggestions about dress and language sound sensible and practical. Personally, although I love clothes, I never quite understood the idea of a very revealing wedding dress even in the Anglican Church. It's not something wrong, I suppose, but to me it has a distinctly uncomfortable feel. I mean, to stand up in front of a vicar half-dressed would just make me blush!

Here in the States, at least, it's quite difficult to find a wedding dress that is *not* bare on top - strapless, spaghetti straps, halter top. But there are things you can do - a wrap pinned a nice way with a sparkly brooch, or a little jacket. At a recent wedding in my parish, the bride wore a strapless dress, but it was a classy strapless - absolutely no cleavage was showing. My priest tells brides to show as little cleavage as possible. The guests, on the other hand, were dressed for going out to a club, not a church wedding. I've never seen so much skin exposed before at an Orthodox, Protestant, or Catholic wedding. Virtually all of the guests were non-Orthodox. Jane Austen once used the phrase "expensively and nakedly dress'd" to describe a fellow female guest at a dinner party. The "nakedly dress'd" part is very descriptive of the wedding guests in question. So if you suspect any guests, particularly those in their 20s/30s have a tendency to "let it all hang out" when dressed for a wedding, warn them beforehand. The "bare minimum" (pun not intended) is for no cleavage, no extremely short skirts, no bare shoulders. Unfortunately, I've seen guests (and brides) publicly chewed out by a priest for immodest dress, or by another member of the family. Not a pleasant thing to witness.

[Johnny]

Here in the States, at least, it's quite difficult to find a wedding dress that is *not* bare on top - strapless, spaghetti straps, halter top. But there are things you can do - a wrap pinned a nice way with a sparkly brooch, or a little jacket. At a recent wedding in my parish, the bride wore a strapless dress, but it was a classy strapless - absolutely no cleavage was showing. My priest tells brides to show as little cleavage as possible. The guests, on the other hand, were dressed for going out to a club, not a church wedding. I've never seen so much skin exposed before at an Orthodox, Protestant, or Catholic wedding. Virtually all of the guests were non-Orthodox. Jane Austen once used the phrase "expensively and nakedly dress'd" to describe a fellow female guest at a dinner party. The "nakedly dress'd" part is very descriptive of the wedding guests in question. So if you suspect any guests, particularly those in their 20s/30s have a tendency to "let it all hang out" when dressed for a wedding, warn them beforehand. The "bare minimum" (pun not intended) is for no cleavage, no extremely short skirts, no bare shoulders. Unfortunately, I've seen guests (and brides) publicly chewed out by a priest for immodest dress, or by another member of the family. Not a pleasant thing to witness.

Thanks for the warning. I'm not too worried - we were thinking of a small wedding with only close family and my best friends, so there would in all likelihood only be two or three women who weren't Orthodox - and they aren't inclined to dress like that anyway. Btw, do people usually wear white at an Orthodox wedding, and if so, would it be odd not to?

[lakraboob]

(Wasn't it a sin for a real priest to play-act a marriage in that film?)

I was about to say something about that also. I wonder what makes the 2 actors NOT married now if the priest did the service? How funny and sad at the same time. Did he have his fingers crossed while doing the part? I never saw the film.

paul

[I9dydJrX]

I was about to say something about that also. I wonder what makes the 2 actors NOT married now if the priest did the service? How funny and sad at the same time. Did he have his fingers crossed while doing the part? I never saw the film.

paul

Are you sure he's a real priest, not an actor? I would have thought a real priest would simply refuse to perform the service.

[JonnTEN]

I don't "DO" u-tube but just from the screenshot above, he does look properly vested and in an Orthodox church. Maybe under his breath he was saying "just kidding Lord" every other word...

There are some professions I would never want to play dress up even if for make believe. Priest is one of them.

[freeprescriptionplanrrx]

Are you sure he's a real priest, not an actor? I would have thought a real priest would simply refuse to perform the service.

Yes, real priest. Fr. Stephen Kopestonsky. It was filmed at St. Theodosius Orthodox Cathedral (OCA) in Cleveland, and Fr. Stephen was the pastor of St. Theodosius at the time. He retired from active parish service in 2004. He's listed in the OCA online clergy directory. The full service wasn't done, so it wasn't like he was "marrying" a fake couple. Also, in the first part of the scene, he comes out of the royal doors from the altar. Only a real priest would have been allowed to do that. As for why/how he was allowed to do the movie, I don't know. There's also a funeral scene at the end.

[adolfadsermens]

Btw, I have no idea how one measures devotion, but my partner adheres to the fast, attends Church, prays, etc. I'm not sure that he's not devout - but 'partner' is the usual term over here for someone you are in a relationship with, once you're out of your teens and if the relationship is fairly committed (eg. one is considering marriage). How about 'my fiancee'? :-)

[khjhkfggt]

How about 'my fiancee'? :-)

Yes, Alice, I would love to say that! But at the moment (although we did go to look at engagement rings today) we've not announced anything to anyone, let alone setting a date etc. So he really is just my partner. :-)

[Sensbachtal]

Fiance and fiancee, male and female (sorry, Alice)!

Ah, yes, I forgot. When getting engaged, an Orthodox couple can have a blessing from their priest. When my wife and I went to tell him we wanted to be engaged, Archimandrite Zacharias gave us a blessing which included blessing our rings on the relics of St Silouan.

[wrenjmerg]

Margaret wrote:

You will need a koumbara/koumbaro (Greek terms) to place the crowns on your heads - rather like a maid of honour/best man but with something really important to do rather than just standing around looking pretty! This is true for a Greek wedding, but not for a Russian one, unless you choose to have the wedding crowns held above your heads during the ceremony instead of placed on your heads. (This difference is purely family and folk custom, nothing more.) If you choose the former option, you'll need four men to do this, say, the best man and three groomsmen, who can take turns. Why four? It is quite a feat of endurance for only two people to hold the crowns aloft for the length of time during the ceremony the crowns are bestowed and then removed by the priest.

If the crowns are to remain on the couple's heads, then there is no need for the best man to be standing next to the couple as he does at Greek weddings. At my wedding, the best man was performing a most useful function - contributing his vocal talents in the choir. Of course, he, and the matron-of-honour also were required to sign the register as witnesses.

(Though both I and my husband are Orthodox, the above still apply for mixed marriages.)

[Lt_Apple]

Margaret wrote:



This is true for a Greek wedding, but not for a Russian one, unless you choose to have the wedding crowns held above your heads during the ceremony instead of placed on your heads. (This difference is purely family and folk custom, nothing more.) If you choose the former option, you'll need four men to do this, say, the best man and three groomsmen, who can take turns. Why four? It is quite a feat of endurance for only two people to hold the crowns aloft for the length of time during the ceremony the crowns are bestowed and then removed by the priest.

If the crowns are to remain on the couple's heads, then there is no need for the best man to be standing next to the couple as he does at Greek weddings. At my wedding, the best man was performing a most useful function - contributing his vocal talents in the choir. Of course, he, and the matron-of-honour also were required to sign the register as witnesses.

(Though both I and my husband are Orthodox, the above still apply for mixed marriages.)

Olga, thanks, this helps me to understand. In your experience, what are the crowns like? I find it hard to understand what is happening here, too - can anyone explain the meaning to me? The problem I have is that the friends I love best are either nominally Anglican, agnostic, or atheist - and much as I love them, my partner and I feel that this service should be a religious ceremony.

[SergeyMaikov]

In the Orthodox ceremony, the couple are crowned as the king and queen of their home. The crowns also represent the martyrs' crowns. Marriage is a dying to self.

To see what Russian crowns look like, have a look at the video clip I linked to. Greek style crowns are a circle of flowers or greenery, real or artificial, or even metal or fabric.

http://www.orthodoxweddingcrowns.com/

This is a place in the States that makes metal crowns that couples keep. The Russian-style crowns belong to the church. Even in Russian tradition parishes, I've seen more people using the Greek-style crowns because you can keep them. Many couple I know will put their crowns in a glass-fronted wooden shadow box and hang them in their home, often over their bed.