[wizardasa]

education != intelligence/IQ
You show the logic skills of Kenobi in this thread.

[sessoorale]

I'm not saying education=inteligence.

Then how do you explain your sentence which seems to indicate approval and agreement:

"I hope he doesn't since what he said really can be backed up by ample statistics. "

But education and material wealth do correlate with intelligence What proof do you have of that?

In your other thread I said that the variation of social status and wealth over the generations is smaller than the variation in intelligence.

You replied:

As to poverty and inteligence, this depends on how meritocratic a society is, it also probably has a few envirnomental feedbacks. I'm not nesecarily saying there is a large difference once one controls for this, but you must admit that a slight difference probably does exist even in rigid societies. I do not admit even such a slight difference exists. If it did, the European aristocracy, going back a 1000 years in some cases, would by 1789, due to natural selection, all have been excellent military strategists and statesmen. I doubt you can argue such a case. Of course there was inbreeding on the highest levels (of kings), but as far as I know this was not the case for lower aristocracy, and the gene pool should have been big enough to produce aristocratic supermen.

You disappoint me Heraclitus. I guess you have a high IQ, but you clearly don't know how to apply intelligence and logic to more than mere abstract mathematical problems.

[moredasers]

the funny thing about Sarrazin is that his surname seems to mean "Sarracen", meaning "muslim/Arab"...

[sesWaipunsaws]

Heraclitus is singly responsible for the decline of IQ in Europe.

[hechicxxrr]

But we also imported a lot of Germans.

[M4tHkBw2]

1. The founding stock (as of independance) was arguably better than the average Euro, they still represent the bulk of American ancestry. I highly doubt this. In Philadelphia, I am certain the majority of people of European descent are of Italian, Irish, Jewish, German, and Eastern European descent, groups which arrived well after Independence. I am certain that you would see similar ethnic breakdowns all across the East Coast.

2. Most immigrants in the 19th century where European So? Still impoverished huddled masses. Are you implying Europeans, even impoverished peasants, are genetically superior to all other ethnic groups?

6. Regression towards the mean, even if the immigrants where dumb their kids would regress towards their populations average I hope points 1 to 5 clearly suggest the average of these averages for these groups was probably around 100. By what mechanism if you claim IQ is so genetically determined?

[leacturavar]

I don't know... look at that nose...

[desmond001]

If Germans are so smart then why did they start and lose two world wars?

[chadnezzrr]

A spokesman for a Muslim group in Berlin said; ‘He is a tired old white Christian male full of prejudice and few ideas.’ your ideas are wrong because
(a) you're a white christian male;
(b) you're the racist

fukkin' brilliant

[EspanaCamsInfo]

A century and a half of taking in the impoverished masses of the world should have made the US technologically backwards and economically poor.

A century and a half of that certainly would have, however that is not what happened.

[Gadarett]

Again with the IQ decline of Europe due to immigration?

Europe's IQ is lower because of EMIGRATION.

All the smart ones move to the new world.

[Apparpsmose]

Oerdin really doesn't like Turks, I see. What are you? Greek?

And nevertheless, the same can not be said of the Arabs.

[Tjfyojlg]

Germany offers great welfares and quite open immigration policies, and Germans really don't like immigrants => a great combo that pisses off smart people and attracts dumb asses at same time.

[freddystone]

http://pgf.cc/2006/03/28/poles-have-...-iq-in-europe/

actually third, after Germans and Dutch (107 both, Poles 106)


In France, the average intelligence score was 94, comparable to Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey and Serbia, while Germany and the Netherlands posted a brainy 107.

wtf, France?

[Grenader]

http://pgf.cc/2006/03/28/poles-have-...-iq-in-europe/

actually third, after Germans and Dutch (107 both, Poles 106)


In France, the average intelligence score was 94, comparable to Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey and Serbia, while Germany and the Netherlands posted a brainy 107.

wtf, France?

Several explanations for this. France is heavily Celtic in origin. Ireland for example also has an IQ of around 93. Perhaps the Celts where a wee bit dimmer than the Germanics and Poles? They also had heavy immigration from Italy in the 19th century, perhaps it was mostly from Souther Italy whose IQs are much lower than the Northern Italians, perhaps comparable to Greeks (92) who are of similar type? Lots of plausible explanations for just White Frenchies lower than German IQ.

Or maybe the guy doing the study wasn't able to get a sample of just European Frenchmen and the influence of the huge Arab and Black (20%) population is showing.

[Attarderb]

I don't know... look at that nose...

Albert Speer assesing German banker's noses to determine possible semitic ancestry.

[violalmina]

I would say the results of national IQ tests have more to do with educational system (which we've unfortunatelly changed in Poland, so new Poles will be just as ignorant as westerners or Americans). Poland in general scores well in mathematics, we have good traditions in this field, and I believe thia is the reason for good polish outcome, not superior genes The French have contributed a lot to science, so I guess their outcome has more to do with their educational system prefering hs or something.

[Blaxastij]

Who says he is speaking primarily of Kurds?

I didn't say they where that dumb. You need to understand that Northern Central Eruopeans are really really smart (Germans have an IQ of 107 which is comparable to East Asians like the Japanese and less gifted Jewish groups), its not coincidence that out of the all the groups of Jews in the world, many of which filled similar neiches as the Askenazi Jews, the Askenazi Jews ended up the smartest. They had to be smarter than Dutchmen/Germans/Poles.

Note: The average IQ of Israel is just 94. Askenazi and certain Shepardim Jews are the ones with the proverbial smarts.

It depends on which Sryans you are refering to, many populations in Iran, Lebanon, Srya and the Arab world in general (to a lesser extent) are very well of in the inteligence department most with average IQs from the low 90s all the way to 100 and a few even a bit higher than that. The problem are the unwashed masses who drag down the IQs of countries like Egypt, Yemen and Saudi Arabia to the low 80s.

Randomized Balkan (including Slovenian) immigrants would also probably hurt the German average IQ since we are probably in the mid 90's at the best of times and Gpypsies are probably in their high 80s or low 90s considering their origin. But fortunatley we aren't from cultures that breed like rabbits.

Overall the argument anyway wasn't nesecarily group differences but the average IQ of the immigrants. The ones who choose to migrate are usually menial or construction workers that are really poor, since its not that expensive to reach Germany (living there is another matter). Even if Japan was exporting immigrants like that, their average IQ's would probably be in the middling 90s.

Not only that but the ones with higher IQs among them tend to assimilate (ie breed less) rapidly to German norms in the course of a generation or two. So the remaining population with the backward culture (which I do agree is a problem for things like education) are still breeding waaay above the German average and have an even lower genotypical average IQ than the intial wave of immigrants.

Anyway I'm willing to quite confidently state that Turkey today is more meritocratic than 19th century Europe (it also porbably has higher average IQs due to the Flynn effect) this is why the poor workers who emigrated to the US climbed the social ladder, the Flynn effect did wonders for them as the quality of their life improved, not only that those that where stuck in their class due to unfair treatment experienced rapid gains in acheivment and to top it all of their culture was European in character and their religion was Christianity which made assimilation a breeze.

2nd and 3rd Mexican immigrants for example today in the US do worse than fresh immigrants precisley because the Flynn effect probably dosen't have much more to go in them also its much cheaper to reach the US today for a Mexican than it was for a Belorussian peasant in the 19th century.
Americans do whine too much about cultural endangerment. Mexicans in Mexico have stopped breeding like rabbits, which means that together with the ever decreasing standard of the American South East the immigrant flood will decrease to a trickle. The prominence of English world wide means USian Mexicans are slated to assimilate to the language unless they can acheive a clear majorit (which they won't since whites will still be the biggest single group in 2040). To top it off they are chatolic, their culture overall is heavily influenced by Europeans norms.

The real key difference is their lower genotypical inteligence which will keep them poorer than whites its just a question of how much.
Depending on how you handle them they will either turn out like Apalachian Whites or Blacks.

Most of the Turks I saw in Germany were actually Kurds.

How do you explain that for much of Worlds History the Middle East and Eastern Mediterranean nations were much more developed than the Western Mediterranean and Northern European nations? Ur, Babylon, Seleucia, Ctesiphon, Baghdad, for milleniums the center of the world was in the modern shithole of Iraq.

My ancestry is German and Ashkenazi,so that makes me da pimp for you, but I still think that If Islam had never existed North Africa would be at least as developed as Southern Europe. Right before the Islamic Conquest the greatest Western City in the world was not Eurpean, it was Carthaghe, North Africa was the only Western Latin part of the former Empire that didn't look like a barbarized shithole, and that land before being overrun had produced theologians like Augustine, Tertullian and Cyprian.

Islam was able to revigorize decadent societies immediately (Southern Spain and Sicily regained their prosperity of Roman times right after being invaded) but it failed at making them progress any further, Islam made them stagnant.

But I guess you could still say that slave trade with sub saharan Africa + Arabians spreading their genes made middle easterners and north africans dumber.

To be sincere, the endogamous christian minorities of the middle east like copts, tend to be more successful than the muslim majorities.


Where did you get the number for Israel? I am sure ashkenazi jews must be at least 40% of the Israeli population, if not more.

[67Irralphaisa]

Where did you get the number for Israel? I am sure ashkenazi jews must be at least 40% of the Israeli population, if not more.

I did a bit of searching and figured out I got the number from Lynn.
As you will soon see I spoke too quickly and you where right to question the Israeli figure.

According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, in 2008, of Israel's 7.3 million people, 75.6% were Jews of any background[1]. Among them, 70.3% were Sabras (Israeli-born), mostly second- or third-generation Israelis, and the rest are olim (Jewish immigrants to Israel) — 20.5% from Europe and the Americas, and 9.2% from Asia and Africa, including the Arab countries.[2]

About 35% of all Israeli Jews are recently (first or second generation) descended from European Jews, while 25% are descended from Jews who immigrated from Arab countries, Iran, Turkey and Central Asia. In addition, 45.6 thousands (0.8%) are, or are descended from Indian Jews, and 106.9 thousands (1.9%) - from Ethiopian Jews[2]. 28% of Jews are clearly mostly nonAskenazi in origin.
Meaning 54.4% of the population is Askenazi.

Also wiki estimates in another place the population of Askenazi Jews between 2.8–4 million. The numbers are sort of ok if one takes the higher number and assumes that there are more European Jews that have been in Israel for 3+ generations (reasonable considering the history of zionism and how early Frummy Jews mary) making the quick number of 1st and 2nd generation Jews and that people who identify as Askenazi have a bit of Shepardim ancestry due to recent intermmariage which makes the above quote misleading.

Most relativley well grounded estimates of Askenazi Jew inteligence wary from a mere 103 to all the way up to the low 110s, most estimates go towards the upper limit (Lynn put the figure at 108, Murray & Herstein at 113 [BTW these are American Askenazi Jews numbers]). In my opinon Askenazi IQ is probably around 112.

Quickly curnching the numbers from the above makes to realize that the nonAskenazi IQ of Israel would need to be just 75 (!!!) to get us at Lynn's figure. In other words Lynn probably took a quick and easy shortcut or Askenazi Jews in Israel have much lower IQ than American Askenazi Jews.

Jordan's IQ is estimated by various surces in the middling 80s (87, 84, ect.).
Using a average IQ of 87 for the Palestine population and a IQ of 100 for the nonAfrican Jews once comes up with a number of 94 for nonAskenazi Jews.

My rough estimate of Israel thus places it at about 103 (comparable to Germany, Italy but not as good as Japan or South Korea).

Criticism of Lynn's Israel figures:
http://ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/20...not-94-at-all/

[GogaMegaPis]

Most of the Turks I saw in Germany were actually Kurds.

From wikipedia:

How do you explain that for much of Worlds History the Middle East and Eastern Mediterranean nations were much more developed than the Western Mediterranean and Northern European nations? Ur, Babylon, Seleucia, Ctesiphon, Baghdad, for milleniums the center of the world was in the modern shithole of Iraq.

I hope you agree farming in Northern China and Northern Europe is more difficult than lets say the Fertile crescent?

By far most plausible explanation to me seems that human genetics especially with relation to inteligence are not all that matters, a popular read to show the strong Guns, Germs and Steel to see how the environment and genetics have massive impacts on the development of civilization.

[Also as a bonus here is a quick overview of my pet theory for the rise and fall of civilizations:]

Farming in some areas rather than others primarily due to environmental factors (a high IQ and future time orientation help, but we see from American Natives that you probably just need average Homo Sapiens IQ to get there)

The elites of the early civlizations where well fed even if the average pesant was worse of than a hunter gatherer (note that this is after the malthusian trap sets in where the farmers breed like bunnies for generations, before when there are few farmers the first farmers are better off than hunter gatherers). Better nutrition, higher average IQ's, an ancient Flynn effect among the elite in other words.

They maintained wast populations and trade at greater distances than primitves enabling "faster" evolution (read The 10000 year explosion by Chochran) meaning they domesticated themselves rapidly creating more tolerance for heirachy and inequality than before. Perhaps there where even Eugenic breeding patterns if farming was demanding (since cities have always been genetic black holes). Rapid specialization and a larger economy that followed was more conductive to early discoveries.
Once you get writing that by itself is a giant step and we know from literacy rates world wide that learning to write and read aren't that hard, so even if the above effects are exausted we would see continued progress that puts Euros or people like the Japanese and Mongols to shame due to the accumulation of writting.

Also who is to say that eventually dysgenic breeding patterns didn't mean stagnation or even decline? Cities drawing the best most ambitious blood of the country side for generation after generation for thousands of years is bound to have some effect especially if farmers get marginal returns in reproductive fitness for even more inteligence.

Anyway.... We know inteligence matters more for job performance the more intelectually demanding the job is. Is it difficult to imagine that the differences between people's mattered less in agrarian civlizations or even as recently as before the industrial revolution?

My ancestry is German and Ashkenazi,so that makes me da pimp for you, but I still think that If Islam had never existed North Africa would be at least as developed as Southern Europe. Right before the Islamic Conquest the greatest Western City in the world was not Eurpean, it was Carthaghe, North Africa was the only Western Latin part of the former Empire that didn't look like a barbarized shithole, and that land before being overrun had produced theologians like Augustine, Tertullian and Cyprian.

You are probably right in many respects. I agree with you on your assesment of most North Africa (not Egypt though, despite the impressive intelectual pedigree of places like Alexandria we musn't forget the huddled masses that supported this).

Islam was able to revigorize decadent societies immediately (Southern Spain and Sicily regained their prosperity of Roman times right after being invaded) but it failed at making them progress any further, Islam made them stagnant.

I feel the need to point out that the memplex of Islam and Arabian culture where very different in the time of Mohammed compared to the 9th century compared to the 11th century let alone the 17th century.

Islam changed and then the societies that adopted it became stagnant.

Or perhaps part ot the golden age of Islam where just the effects of connecting sucha large domaine into one cultural sphere (especially the former Roman world with the Persian world).

But I guess you could still say that slave trade with sub saharan Africa + Arabians spreading their genes made middle easterners and north africans dumber.

I wouldn't be comfortable speaking of the inteligence of Arabians in the 7th century so ignoring their effects is probably best. However the Islamic slave trade (20 million!) from Africa was massive and did have an effect.

Taking your example of Augustine. Algeria underwent massive demographical changes in the past few centuries. However to be fair North Africa also imported perhaps 1 million White slaves from Europe so the effect might be primarily cultural after all.

Most of the population is Berber derived and considers itself Arab.

Especially the article on genetic origions of the Berber is interesting, a mix of Subsaharan, Levantine, European and "Native".