[RafaelYV]

Ah, Antonia, ok I thought as you said the children were "stolen/removed from their parents" in Germany. But what the links inform, is just an isolated, normal case where homeschooling is illegal by law.

Yes, Rick is right that homeschooling is not for everyone and that it takes a tremendous amount of effort so kudos to the parents who undertake this path. But those parents who can not, are also providing a worthy education for their children. Why would Rick's daughter pursue Teaching otherwise?

The age group diversity is a good point (when children are exposed to such interaction during the course of the day). Although in schools also they are exposed to such interaction. It is worthy to mention that in the pedagogic classes I have taken in high school, I have learned that usually younger children should not be allowed to spend much time with children older than them because of the unnecessary details they might learn too early. However moderation is always good.

[fd8IIys2]

Then I must not have included that information. Within the past year or two, there definitely was a case wherein a German child was removed from the home and placed in foster care because of the crime of homeschooling. It was all over the homeschooling boards at the time. I just grabbed the first links that came up from the search.

I don't think that any of us here are claiming that homeschooling is the *only* way to educate children. I definitely do not believe homeschooling is the only way. One of our children attends an outside school because there are reasons making that the best choice. A high-quality public or private school can wind up being the right "match" for a particular child. Please don't assume an argument where there is none. (We don't know each other at all, so we both are writing in a sort of vacuum.)

Many of us do, however, stand non-negotiably on the determination to place the Orthodox faith front-and-center to our lives, including it as a core component of our children's education. Doing that is next to impossible when making use of an "outside school." Propaganda from teachers assumes many forms, some of them quite subtle. Peer pressure can be benign or harmful. Curricular content can be abominable in its moral content. Orthodox homeschoolers don't raise their children under manhole covers; we just exercise our parental rights to expose our children to life at the pace and dosage-level appropriate for each child.

I've neither knowledge of nor experience with any school which mixes age levels other than Montessori schools, or band/orchestra/choir programs. What have you observed?

[Cinzomzm]

Then I must not have included that information. Within the past year or two, there definitely was a case wherein a German child was removed from the home and placed in foster care because of the crime of homeschooling. It was all over the homeschooling boards at the time. I just grabbed the first links that came up from the search.

Ok no problem. But how it was formulated the sentence came across as it was a widespread phenomenon. This is why I wanted to know if this happening in general or just isolated cases.

I don't think that any of us here are claiming that homeschooling is the *only* way to educate children. I did not say you did! I just reinforced what Rick already explained and said so well! It had nothing to do with what others posted.

[stadiaKab]

Antonia,

Actually our homeschool group isn't even specifically Christian, although it is run and organized by Christian families and the majority of the participants are Christian. One of the main organizers is another Orthodox homeschooling mom and the others are all Protestants. I am the only other Orthodox in the group besides her. In fact we knew each other through this group before my husband and I became Orthodox and so it was a blessing to already know someone in the parish when my husband and I decided to convert even if they didn't have any direct influence on our conversion.

Nina,
I have learned that usually younger children should not be allowed to spend much time with children older than them because of the unnecessary details they might learn too early. It depends on the older kids. Older kids that have been properly raised can be a very good example for younger kids. It is the older kids who have bad values and morality that can be dangerous for younger kids. I think there tends to be a mindset that looks at your typical teenager today and simply accept that this is normal behavior. But when you have examples in front of you of what good Christian kids are really like then your view changes. Mike and I have not done that great, but we've had plenty of good examples in our lives that we can at least strive to live up to. Both among homeschoolers and those that have sent their kids to public school.

In our old congregation in FL the assistant pastor and especially his wife were some of the most godly people I have ever met. Their children were the initiators of asking for the church to open its doors an hour before school started so that the teens could go and pray (the church was only a couple of blocks from the high school). Eventually what started out with a couple of teens praying before school grew into more then 50 people coming to pray before going to work or school.

[Corporal White]

Anna,
In regards to older and younger children socializing, what the book said was just in principle (without taking into account children's backgrounds, or upbringing) just because interests become diverse and topics of discussion develop into more mature with age.

I participated in this thread, since in addition to being taught a lot as I already mentioned, I was just trying to sympathize with you all that there are not Orthodox schools (or materials) everywhere available. Today it was 1st year memorial service of a friend of mine from Boston, who was striving to start an Orthodox school for the children of the area. And she being in my mind all these days I wished here out-loud that her dream may come true.

[mloversia]

I have long held the belief that home schooling is an excellent idea for Orthodox families; especially to avoid exposing our children to foreign ethics at a tender age where they should be children and guided by family and not by the outside world.

However, this opinion has always had resistance from family and friends and especially from within Orthodox people I know (I am in Australia).

I am very grateful for this thread since it confirms, gives peace in my soul to see other Orthodox people give it serious consideration ...

If God wills and I marry again and if He wills that I have children, I hope that this is the avenue I could pursue.

[BartRonalds]

I've read this discussion with a kind of 'side interest'. Since (for obvious reasons) home- versus traditional-schooling is not an issue that bears directly on me, I do work with higher education and so see these children when they come up to college and university level. This provides an interesting perspective on the 'end result' of such methods, which has been interesting to observe over the years. In general, I have mixed reactions. I find that home-schooled children are often more mature in certain areas, and regularly less mature in others, than those who have gone through traditional public/private schooling.

In any case, I am enjoying reading your comments.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[Bondjrno]

I find that home-schooled children are often more mature in certain areas, and regularly less mature in others, than those who have gone through traditional public/private schooling.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

It would be interesting to hear more considering the unique perspective you have. Are there many homeschoolers in England?

[12dargernswearf]

I too read with a bit of "distance". My children were educated in the public school system (with as much input as I could give them - which was not insubstantial). I found that a good parent will invest the same amount of time and energy in their children's education whether homeschooling (where values can be interjected as an integral part of the curriculum) or in public school (where values must be injected by the parent - sometimes overriding those implied in the public system). Given the constant of parental input, one is pretty much he same as the other. I also consult for a K-12 Orthodox school (St John of San Francisco Orthodox Academy) and I see both the benefits and deficits of that option.

One thing that I can tell you is that my son, a public school product, attended at private Jesuit university (St Louis Univ) and his observation was that the "homeschool kids" (who were plentiful) were easily identified by the fact that they did not really know what to do with their newfound "freedom" from the family system - they did not know how to function in the totally unstructured environment of the college dorm. This is the observation of a fellow student - not of a parent with an "axe to grind" This doesn't negate the advantages or the desirability of homeschooling, it just points to something that homeschool parents have to address

Another thing that has come from my work with the Academy is that there must be a conscious effort on the part of the teachers/staff/parents to purposefully introduce exposure to non-Christian or herterodox Christian missionaries/true believers in a controlled environment so that the children might be "inoculated" against the proselytizing efforts of these groups or even to the unfiltered and unabated onslaught of these belief systems.

Fr David Moser

[oxixernibioge]

One thing that I can tell you is that my son, a public school product, attended at private Jesuit university (St Louis Univ) and his observation was that the "homeschool kids" (who were plentiful) were easily identified by the fact that they did not really know what to do with their newfound "freedom" from the family system - they did not know how to function in the totally unstructured environment of the college dorm. This is the observation of a fellow student - not of a parent with an "axe to grind" This doesn't negate the advantages or the desirability of homeschooling, it just points to something that homeschool parents have to address

As a committed home schooler, allow me to agree with your son's assessment and actually "grind an axe" over this. I do not like that many of my fellow home schoolers use home schooling as a way to isolate their child. A home schooled high schooler has time to invest in the real world and ought to avoid adolescence (in the modern sense of the word) entirely.

Keeping children cloistered from naughty words and from worldly engagement is well... I'd like to go so far as to say immoral, but that's probably one hysterionic too far. A high school home schooled child should be perfectly competent to arrange their own schedule each day. And should be even MORE preparred for unstructured environments.

What I think would be particularly helpful would be extended time away from parents, either at the local jr college taking classes, or volunteering at the local food pantry, or "interning" with a local plumber. Some where that they have to deal with those who's choices in life are very different from their own and that of their parents.

My own experience in college was that very few students (home schooled or not, religious or not) were preparred to deal with the chaos of dorm life. But I don't think high school provides any preparation for that. Perhaps an extended summer camp stay might be the only possible pre-college exposure.

[hellencomstar]

I've read this discussion with a kind of 'side interest'. Since (for obvious reasons) home- versus traditional-schooling is not an issue that bears directly on me, I do work with higher education and so see these children when they come up to college and university level. This provides an interesting perspective on the 'end result' of such methods, which has been interesting to observe over the years. In general, I have mixed reactions. I find that home-schooled children are often more mature in certain areas, and regularly less mature in others, than those who have gone through traditional public/private schooling.

In any case, I am enjoying reading your comments.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

I agree with Father Matthew, and I also feel like him. I have mixed reactions (and feelings) in this matter.

As Anna said maybe it will be interesting to hear from our dear Father who is in higher academics what he has observed.

VV wrote:

I have long held the belief that home schooling is an excellent idea for Orthodox families; especially to avoid exposing our children to foreign ethics at a tender age where they should be children and guided by family and not by the outside world. VV when you mention the 'tender age', I am reminded of the words of Geronda Porphyrios that the child's education starts from when he is conceived. He places all the responsibility on the mothers and advices them what to do during the 9 months of pregnancy. Also what I have been told by an Orthodox nun in Greece who has been my spiritual mother for many years, is that, the first 4 years are very crucial and decisive for a child's development, future and his personality. It is good that also in places where homeschooling is not permitted, kindergarten is not mandatory.

[Barryrich]

VV wrote:



VV when you mention the 'tender age', I am reminded of the words of Geronda Porphyrios that the child's education starts from when he is conceived. He places all the responsibility on the mothers and advices them what to do during the 9 months of pregnancy. Also what I have been told by an Orthodox nun in Greece who has been my spiritual mother for many years, is that, the first 4 years are very crucial and decisive for a child's development, future and his personality. It is good that also in places where homeschoolong is not permited, kindergarten is not mandatory.

dearest Nina, each orthodox, I believe, belongs to a particular "school of thought" - though we all hold the same fundamental dogmatical beliefs.

I am of the Elder Porphyrios school of thought, and infact, my Spiritual Father is his disciple, my Geronta who is in Mount Athos ... so, my reaction to many things tends to be along the lines of how Elder advised us ...

Coming back to the thread, relating this to Homeschooling, I think that homeschooling for the early years, for an Orthodox family, is ideal for the reasons you mentioned. It is better for the child to be cultivated with ethics and morals shaped by the family rather than an atheistic system ...

At a later age, whether homeschooling is or isnt of benefit - wel the jury is out but at least by then you will have assured that your child has cultivated an orthodox spirit through the home environment.

The other benefit of homeschooling is that if their is a liturgy, they dont have to have school so they Grace of the Holy Spirit blesses them in their early years.

I am rambling since I am at work and can not give much thought to my grammar ....

[iiilizium]

My own experience in college was that very few students (home schooled or not, religious or not) were prepared to deal with the chaos of dorm life.

This is the answer of answers here as we might attempt to compare the "maturity" level of these 18 and 19 year old kids, especially when you want to throw sending them away to college into the mix.

We can consider my experience or Fr. Dcn's. or whoever's experience as it relates to the maturity level of kids when they become freshmen . . . but it really doesn't matter, I think, because who would disagree with DW's statement above?

Because, when I say that it has been my experience that most homeschool children are definitely more mature than those brought up in public school, I would also say that NEITHER homeschooled NOR public schooled kids are mature enough to leave home at 18-19 years of age as it relates to either dorm life or any other kind of life.

These kids are not adults, almost all of them are ill-prepared and immature as it pertains to being turned loose in the world (the crazy world of college life away from home, or the real world in an apartment or whatever).

And, now I will risk sounding out of it here a little bit, but I feel strongly that in many cases when a family sends their child away to college (especially the one's that are well known to be 'party colleges'), then that family has just thrown their child to wolves. But, now we have moved into the area of child rearing, but how is this not included in the "training up of a child?"

That is what we are talking about here the training of a child. Right?

As much as we want our kids to be smart, strong, independent and able to make the right decision for themselves when they are 18-19 . . . most kids regardless of where they received their education are too immature to be sent away to dorm life.

Now I'm feeling like I'm starting to sound like some sort of legalist or fundy here, and I know there are most definitely exceptions to what I'm saying, but I think overall this is the rule.

Did he just say, that in many cases when a family sends their son or daughter away to dorm life in a college they have just thrown their child to the wolves? Yes, I think he did!

Where did that foxhole shovel get to now?

[oplapofffe]

VV mou, when I read those words of Geronda Porphyrios that we women are responsible when the baby is in our womb, Oh my! I have been trembling all the time because of this monumental responsibility. Where do I go to avoid temptations during these 9 months? I think a far away monastery would be a good choice...

Yes, yes thank God here in US kindergarten is not mandatory so at least those few significant years the child can rared in the bosom of the family.

PS I am just watching the monastery of Akrotiri in Crete in a documentary about Crete from German TV, that my husband has recorded and which we are watching together (He loves the documentary and he could read Agia Triada all by himself - because that's the name of the monastery) and I am hearing Greek, German (yay! I miss euroTV) and since I am "talking" to you also at the same time, it reminded me of the beautiful pictures you have shared from your amazing trip in Greece. Filakia kai i proseuxi mou ine na se dosi O Theouli mas ena katapliktiko bambino Tou, kai meta mazi na kanete pola bambini.

[Hftqdxpm]

Not a parent here, but I've got plenty of friends who are homeschooling. If you are thinking of it, every friend who homeschools strongly recommends joining the HSDL just in case you have any issues. It's also very helpful to find out what your state requires. In some the local school district must see what you're doing, the kids have to take the standardized tests, etc., and in others, you don't have to do anything. It varies a great deal.

A great resource for homeschooling (note that there are all sorts of folks on this board and many are not Christian, but I know many Christians who appreciate the info gotten here. It's a "crunchy" group):

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...sprune=30&f=50

[bjacogaerllyo]

You are right Nina, raising kids is certainly a journey of faith. None of us are really adequate to the job.

Want to learn to pray? Have kids.

"A child is raised by the entire village!" This is very true and creates incredible hardships for parents in a society where there has been such a breakdown of community.

[Timoxari]

You are right Nina, raising kids is certainly a journey of faith. None of us are really adequate to the job.

But see God has entrusted you all with His children. Whereas I am really inadequate. This is why I think I do not have any children. Although I have dreamed to have my first child by the time I was 20. As the Jewish proverb so rightly says: "Do you want to make God laugh? Tell Him your plans (dreams in my case)!"

Want to learn to pray? Have kids. YAY. And I have been trying to figure out the easiest way! Thanks!

[JennyStewarta]

I think that all of us posting have pretty much the same observation: Children develop into a variety of adult types, no matter how they were educated -- homeschool or outside school. Also appears to be general agreement that *nothing* prepares an individual for the chaos and madness of dorm life !

Each family finds what works best for the tasks of "real life preparation." Homeschoolers have to work harder at this than families who use outside schools. That certainly is fair to note. Not to use this as some claim that homeschooling is inferior, but just to note that homeschooling parents have additional planning required.

My two sons now in college adjusted to "a larger fish pond" without a hitch. Dual-credit classes, sports involvement, and scouts were as useful for us as they are for other families. I can't speak for adjusting to dorm life, though. We can't afford that luxury.

[espenijij]

I'd like to be able to help her find Orthodox home schooling resources, communities, blogs, or friends online. I'm pretty good at my Google-fu, but I've come up dry. Home schooling and Protestants seem synonymous. I've found the odd RCC and a couple of Uniates, but only one Orthodox mom home schooling (and she really struggles with it, on and off).

I was wondering if anyone one Monachos might have some resources I don't, even internationally.

Here is something I just came across and thought I would share it as it seems appropriate

the very first Orthodox
conference dedicated to homeschooling. The dates for the conference
are March 26 - 29, 2009. It is hosted by Antiochian Village, so there
will be onsite lodging options for those that are interested. Please
check out the full registration packet to read about the speakers, and
please pass the word.

http://www.antiochianvillage.org/***...ckageI2009.pdf Fr David Moser

[numinertyuesk]

But see God has entrusted you all with His children. Whereas I am really inadequate. This is why I think I do not have any children.

I would not be so quick to interpret God's intentions in this. Perhaps He desires your work with many children in the parish that you could not invest so heavily in, if you had your own children.

There are always plenty of children around who need more than they are getting from their parents (or you can say if you find it less offensive, "parents who could use some help"). And let us not forget the orphans, they are very close to the heart of Christ!