We should not fear but only trust in the mercy of our God when we confess in humility that we are sinners!

'God of all spirits and of every flesh, who didst trample down death and didst overcome the devil, bestowing life to this world; do Thou, O Lord, give rest to the soul xxx of Thy departed servant xxx in a place of light, in a place of green pasture, in a place of refreshment, from whence pain, sorrow and
mourning have fled away. Every sin committed by xxx in thought, word or deed, do Thou as our good and man-befriending God forgive: for there is no man that shall live and not sin, Thou alone art without sin. Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is truth.'

Alice

Alice, There is Greek minority in Albania.

Effie, Yes you are so right.

My priest in Greece mentioned that Archbishop Anastasios is doing a wonderful job in Albania.

I have read of one interesting Orthodox custom that seems to have some ramifications. Maybe someone could enlighten me a little. Is it a correct Orthodox practice that if someone has very recently communed and then reposes, if the body is to be embalmed then the blood must be saved and buried as well? If so where does this instruction come form and what is its theological foundation if anyone knows?

Sounds in line with the teaching that if you cut yourself after communing the bandages are to be disposed of in the same manner as holy things, I assume because Christ is flowing through your veins?

ok, but how long is He flowing? 1 day? 5? until I sin? (that is not too long to wait) I can see the purpose of it, but can't see the timing of it.

I've heard a day, but I don't know the source reference for this canon/practice.

I would like to think my body is a closed system and once he is in, he can't get out. But I'm a sinner and I am sure He wastes no time withdrawing from me when I sin.

Paul

This is a new way to be buried, or should I say an old way. Is it still done? why or why not?

Sensing his impending death, the saint wrote his last will, and he fell asleep in the Lord on April 5. Igumen Petronios and the brethren of the monastery buried the Patriarch. By Greek custom the saint was buried in a sitting position. On February 1, 1662 St Athanasius was glorified as a saint and his Feastday was designated as May 2, the Feast of St Athanasius the Great. Paul

Paul, this is still done in Greece, but only Archbishops etc. are buried in a sitting position.

Effie

I think it was General Jefferson Davis in the US civil war (he was a Southerner) that had his tomb stone in the shape of a pointed arrow rather than the traditional flat or curved top of the period. He did this because he "did not want any Yankee sitting on his tombstone".

So I assume archbishops not in monasteries had this done? I read about the cleaning of the body and putting specific pieces of vestments over their faces and pectoral crosses in their hands. When they are exumed years later and found to be incorrupt, they are always "laid out". It would seem difficult to do all this for one sitting up. Not to mention having to dig the grave a little deeper.

Paul

Paul, they aren't buried in graves. They are in a sitting position during the funeral procession and after the service they are put in vaults- still in a sitting position. The vault is sealed after the burial. I witnessed this myself.

Effie

How strange!!

I have been to the grave of Archbishop Christodoulos in First Cemetery Athinon, because my father-in-law is also buried there. He (the Archbishop) is not buried in a crypt, but a grave. Perhaps it was not done in his case?

Alice, perhaps it's a case of big cities trying to be a little more modern. I'm probably wrong about this because I know that you know so much more than me.

Up here in Kozani, apparently they still adhere to this old custum - my husband told me that this practice dates back to the Byzantium period. I'm not that knowledgeable about Church practices but I did see him before they sealed the crypt. It's a special crypt built under the St. George Church and all our Metropolitans are buried there.

Effie

Please forgive me if I offended you. Indeed, it seems that Athens and Kozani are world sapart, and I assure you that Kozani sounds much nicer!!!!!! (I won't even start on my impressions of Athenians...suffice it to say that when I am back in New York, I feel as if I am back in paradise, and that New Yorkers are like angels in comparison!)

Maybe one day, I will visit your beautiful part of Greece.

If it were ups to a 'city slicker' New Yorker or adopted 'Athenian' like me, one would never know any of the real customs of the Greeks and of our church. Thank God we have you to share such interesting facts and customs and traditions with us. I love reading your posts, and always have--even years ago when I would just browse around here and there without being a member of the community.

Love in Christ,
Alice

P.S. Someone here said they couldn't find Arch. Christodoulos' tomb in the First cemetery. It is almost at the beginning of the cemetery to your left. There were many flowers on it, and people stopping to pray there. May his memory be eternal.

Dearest Alice, you are incapable of offending me because I know your sincerity and the fact that whatever you say comes from your heart. I don't know very much about church practices and am still learning. I can only refer to things that I have experienced myself.

I have tried to find some references to this practice on the Internet but couldn't find very much. Wikipedia refers to it but very briefly. It does say though that it is a Byzantine practice - something my husband already told me. I have found references to it in parts of Russia in which Greeks lived in the past and also some of the countries in North Africa.

We need someone on this forum who knows Church procedure to tell us why this is done. I have found that even when a custom seems strange there is always a sound reason behind it.

Lots of love

Effie

p.s. I have found young men and old men to be very polite here. The ones I can't stand are these yuppies or whatever they are called - new rich, aged from 30 to perhaps 50, mobiles permanently attached to their heads, expensive clothes, and the manners of what???

Certainly not a mountain peasant because, although this expression is used to describe an ill mannered person, men who live in villages are usually respectful, courteous and well mannered..........................................

Is there an English equivalent for the Greek proverb

Αλλοι εχουν την χαρη και αλλοι το ονομα

Alloi exoun tin chari kai alloi to onoma

Literal translation
Others have the grace/ habit and others have the name

Literal translation
Others have the grace/habit ... Grace as a translation is good, not sure about habit; I suspect gift would be better. http://www.monachos.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.png

Returning to the topic:

If it has been a centuries-old custom to bury or inter hierarchs in a sitting position, then, on opening their graves after the customary period to examine the remains for incorruption, then is the body treated to "straighten" it out, as many bishop-saints' relics are with us to this day intact, and "laid out" in a coffin as it were, for veneration. Examples which immediately come to mind are St Dionysius of Zakynthos, and St Spyridon of Kerkyra (Corfu). Were these bishops originally interred seated?

Olga, St. Spyridon of Kerkyra is particularly attractive to me after reading Gerald Durrell's book about his childhood in Kerkyra. A wonderful book - one which I recommend.

I wrote the word habit because chari of course translates as grace but as this is a proverb about the bad habits that some people are known for I thought the word habit would fit. The proverb's meaning of course is that some people are criticized for something and are wholly innocent while others appear to be blameless regarding the same "habit" but are secretly guilty of it. I just couldn't think whether there is anything in English that describes the same social phenomenon.

I hear it's very cold at the moment in Victoria. We are enjoying a beautiful spring day today after a week or so of heavy rains.

Effie

St. Spyridon of Kerkyra is particularly attractive to me after reading Gerald Durrell's book about his childhood in Kerkyra. A wonderful book - one which I recommend.
The book, for those who are interested, is called "My Family and Other Animals". It is a complete delight of a book, and I, too, thoroughly recommend it.

There is a popular belief in Russia that graves should not have grave stones placed over them but that there should only be a headstone. This belief is based on people saying (where, obviously there was a grave stone involved) that they had had dreams in which the departed cried that they couldn't breathe, and on the notion that resurrection might be harder with a heavy stone on top of the grave. As I said, a popular belief; I haven't asked any clergy what they think.