Funeral practices
 

My wife and I have become interested in our mortality lately and not to bypass the spiritual side of death, by are more interested in the practical side of what to do "when".

I have been reading on caskets from eco-friendly cardboard ones to 14k gold plated ones. Are caskets even necessary except to transport the body? I found two Orthodox suppliers. Has anyone heard of these? Or these?

In my mind, the coffin should be the least expensive item purchased since it is only going to be seen for 2-3 hours then buried. Who says you can't take it with you? I have read all about the rip offs the funeral homes do to greiving families. I guess we are trying to prepare for this. I have heard of people and one priest specifically who keep their coffins in their garages and this helps them remember death.

Cremation is not an option for Orthodox. I understand that. What about embalming? I was told that organ donations are ok, what donating your body to science? How then would it get buried if it were all cut up? I understood cadavers to all be cremated when they were done with them.

I hope my funeral is like my wedding. All our friends pitched in and start to finish only cost $1500 including the dress and honeymoon. Ok, so I'm cheap! So what. I envision being buried in a simple pine box at our local monastery. Service in the church, put my coffin in the back of the pickup and drive to the monastery, dig the hole and drop me in. Simple. Cheap!

What are the do's and don'ts from a modern Orthodox perspective on what I might have missed here? Oh, yeah. Ya'll are all invited.

Paul

I thought we didn't do organ donation (though anyone can have my Yamaha).

Paul, what a macabre discussion but we need to be practical just as our grandparents were practical even about death.

I can only tell you what the customs are here.

In the past, when girls and their mothers were preparing their dowries, beautiful hand woven silk sets were also made for the bride and groom to be used in their coffins when they died. A bottom sheet, a top sheet, the pillow and also a face covering - the first night when the wake is being held the dead person's face is covered.


The wake allows everyone to say a final farewell to the deceased and the children become used to death in life.

Customs are changing here now and the all mighty European Union will soon decide that having a dead person in the house for one night is unhealthy....................................

We shall all soon become as scared of aging and death as those who live in more regulated countries in the world.

The coffin : people don't spend that much on coffins here. Those that do are more interested in impressing the mourners than in honouring their dead. The only exception to this is when young, unmarried people die. Their coffins are white and they are dressed in bridal outfits because they are now married to death.....

Funerals have become a big business over here. At the last one I attended I was amazed that the funeral home had plastered their advertisement (name + telephone number engraved on brass nameplates) on just about everything. The funeral home provides the lamps that are placed at the head and feet of the deceased as well as the stand for the coffin. They also provide the transportation of the coffin from the house to the church and from there to the cemetary.

It's really quite expensive to die here. People are going crazy and spending as much money on funerals as they are on weddings. Moderation in all things is something that is in danger of being forgotten.


Dying is a part of life and although we are all afraid of dying we need to accept it as natural.

I remember the wake we held for my husband's auntie a few years ago. She had marked the passages in her bible that were special to her and that she wanted her family to read during the night. She told her circle of close women friends that she wanted no crying but wanted them to laugh when recounting things that she had done during her life. She had also, amazingly, provided black clothes and stockings for the female members of the immediate family. What a woman! I hope that when my time comes, I shall have her courage.

During a wake here it is also traditional to serve the mourners with a special sweet rice dish and also soup - lots of coffee and wine.

All these various traditional customs help those who have lost a loved one - especially the wake before the funeral - but, sadly, the current nouveau riche attitude is like a cancer that is slowly destroying the purity of the old customs.

There are two things that I would like to see here - imported customs but good ones - people standing up in church and saying something special about the deceased and the rendition of a song that was special to the deceased. I realize that these are not Orthodox practices but I consider them to be special tributes to the person who has died.

Effie

Umm, yes, we can, if we wish, though some might be reluctant to donate or accept a heart for transplant. The 2000 Jubilee Council of Russian Bishops addresses various "modern" health matters, including organ donation. To my knowledge, the position of the Greek church would be much the same.

Andreas, I thought that organ donations were now acceptable. I have to check this but I am almost certain that this is what I have heard.

Effie

Sorry, Olga - that link doesn't work. I read something recently here in the UK about people who had heart transplants experiencing personality changes. I suppose giving eyes, for example, might be alright, but I'd like to know the official Orthodox line - if there is one. Mind you, I doubt any doctor could make use of my bits and pieces - they don't serve me as well as they used to, so I don't see them being much use to anybody else.

Andreas, the "link" in my previous point is a feature of this forum which renders scripture references as hyperlinks. http://www.monachos.net/forum/images...es/redface.png

Here's the link to the document I referred to:

http://www.mospat.ru/index.php?mid=192

Here is the excerpt on organ donation:

XII. 7. The modern transplantology (the theory and practice of the transplantation of organs and tissues) makes it possible to give effective aid to many patients who were earlier doomed to death or severe disability. At the same time, the development of this sphere of medicine, increasing the need for necessary organs, generates certain ethical problems and can present a threat to society. Thus, the unscrupulous propaganda of donoring and the commercialisation of transplanting create prerequisites for trade in parts of the human body, thus threatening the life and health of people.

The Church believes that human organs cannot be viewed as objects of purchase and sale. The transplantation of organs from a living donor can be based only on the voluntary self-sacrifice for the sake of another's life. In this case, the consent to explantation (removal of an organ) becomes a manifestation of love and compassion. However, a potential donor should be fully informed about possible consequences of the explantation of his organ for his health. The explantation that presents an immediate threat to the life of a donor is morally inadmissible. The most common of all is the practice of taking organs from people who have just died. In these cases, any uncertainty as to the moment of death should be excluded. It is unacceptable to shorten the life of one, also by refusing him the life-supporting treatment, in order to prolong the life of another.

The Church confesses, on the basis of Divine Revelation, the faith in the bodily resurrection of the dead (Is. 26:19; Rom. 8:11; 1 Cor. 15:42-44, 52-54; Phil. 3:21). In the Christian burial, the Church expressed the reverence that befits the body of a dead. However, the posthumous giving of organs and tissues can be a manifestation of love spreading also to the other side of death. Such donation or will cannot be considered a duty. Therefore, the voluntary consent of a donor in his lifetime is the condition on which explantation can be legitimate and ethically acceptable. If doctors do not know the will of a potential donor, they should, if necessary, find it out the will of a dying or dead person from his relatives. The so-called presumptive consent of a potential donor to the removal of his organs and tissues, sealed in the legislation of some countries, is considered by the Church to be an inadmissible violation of human freedom.

A recipient assimilates donor organs and tissues entering his personal spiritual and physical integrity. Therefore, in no circumstances moral justification can be given to the transplantation that threatens the identity of a recipient, affecting his uniqueness as personality and representative of a species. It is especially important to remember this condition in solving problems involved in the transplantation of animal organs and tissues.

In some monasteries, the monks make their own caskets and use them as their beds. I certainly do not see anything wrong with a simple casket from an Orthodox viewpoint. Embalming is a liltte more complicated. Many places require it. I am pretty sure that bishops, at least, are not embalmed. Jewish practice, as I understand it also discourages embalming, so there are places that allow exceptions. I do not believe the Church has specifically pronounced one way or the other on embalming.

Some bishops do encourage organ donation, but not all are "of one mind" on the subject, I'd say let your conscience be your guide on that one. However, I do not think that the Church encourages donating one's body to science, nor would I. Funerals are as much for the living as for the dead, and allowing some consolation and edification of those we leave behind seems like the Christian thing to do. Who knows what those science labs will be doing to the body that God created for you, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit. In one sense, it does not matter, God will bring back the resurrected body from its component atoms if necessary. But ending up as part of something like "The Body Exhibit" just doesn't seem right to me (but that might just be me).

We do not need big fancy edifices, that money would certainly be better spent helping others. I know I plan to go as cheaply as I can in a manner that considers the feelings of those left behind.

It is a good thing to think on such things and be prepared, being ready for death is certainly the responsible thing for a Christian to do.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

Paul,
allow me to cut up your questions for response.

We have been doing the same here.

I have been reading on caskets from eco-friendly cardboard ones to 14k gold plated ones. Are caskets even necessary except to transport the body? I found two Orthodox suppliers. Has anyone heard of these? Or these? There is a third place as well, but their website says that coffins are not currently available - http://desertlighthouse.net/caskets.html The Kizhi wood caskets look nice, but need 30-90 days in advance, so you would have to already have it when the time comes.

In my mind, the coffin should be the least expensive item purchased ... From what I understand, $2K for a coffin is fairly inexpensive, and that is the most expensive Orthodox coffin I have ever seen.

...since it is only going to be seen for 2-3 hours then buried.
...
What are the do's and don'ts from a modern Orthodox perspective on what I might have missed here? Oh, yeah. Ya'll are all invited.
Paul Here is the traditional cycle of events that I have been taught. If you follow these, you won't even need the interference of a funeral home, especially since you are going to use your truckhttp://www.monachos.net/forum/images/smilies/wink.png.

1) Person is dying. Priest is called to come to give confession, communion, and possibly read the canon for the departing of the soul.
2) After the person has died, the body is washed with rose water, dressed, and put in the casket, then transported to the church, where they lie in state until the burial.
3) All services at the church are performed with the open casket present. There should be a Liturgy at some point. Then comes the funeral service and the burial.

This could take up to three days or more, especially if someone dies on one of the days when there are no funerals allowed (Bright Week).

This traditional sequence of events doesn't even leave room for embalming and all of that other stuff.

Sbdn. Anthony

I personally know Fr George and his wife and was their confessor for many years. He does quality work, however, don't count on him being around when you die as he himself is getting on in years as it were. So buy early.

Fr David Moser

Paul Cowan wrote:

I have been reading on caskets from eco-friendly cardboard ones to 14k gold plated ones. Are caskets even necessary except to transport the body? Such things are actually legally regulated by the state/province you live in. Every jurisdiction I have been in requires a coffin. Some require a vault that the coffin is then placed in. Some jurisdictions allow no embalment if the burial takes place within a certain time.

By the way, eco-friendly cardboard is something I hadn't considered before!

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Paul the cheapest way I have heard about a funeral was a monk asking another monk to throw his body down a hill after death and the beasts were eating it. I remember something about sins being forgiven because of that, since the monk bypassed any minor honor after his departure. See you are not the cheapest cheap! :P But I agree with you that it is insane to have that much money spent for things that are literally and so directly going to dust. It would be much better if philanthropic work will be performed with that money and services for God's mercy for the departed soul.

About embalming I do not know what rules are but when people curse in Southern Europe one way is cursing for someone's body (flesh) not to be disintegrated after death. Now I do not know what happens after death and why that is bad, but I guess it is bad since we are dust to be returned in earth and dust, unless we are saints and our bodies have become vessels of the Holy Spirit and God decides otherwise for His Glory (what happens with relics of saints). Also grandmothers say that one that curses, does not dissolve after death and special prayers are needed (so do not curse!).

Since you have the monastery nearby, why do not you inquire there? Maybe they prepare caskets and you can draw up a will about your wishes for the body. You can have service at the monastery maybe... Oh God! These are all plans... Only God knows how things will happen and in what manner we will depart. So the best is to pray to Him and ask that it is done according to His Will for the salvation of your soul and His greater Glory! See martyrs did not plan anything and we read in all their lives what happened with the bodies... God always provides.

Pulling in Effie's macabre and Subdeacon Anthony's comments, How in this "practical" world of ours with the eeewwwww factor and all do we get our corpses from the hospital morgue (where we have to go since the police here will not allow someone to be pronounced dead outside of a hospital) to the house then the church without embalming in the humidity of Houston with the stink factor and allow it to reside in the church for 3 days (incense only covers up so much smell) then a days drive in Texas heat to the monastery. Even Lazarus of the 4 days stunk when he emerged from the tomb. I assume I will stink no less after 2 days.

I guess my questions are more relating to the pracitcal side of when you (plural) die, this is what to expect and this is what should be done. I am a very good rules follower. Don't ask me to figure it out on my own. I will end up paying the price of a new ferrari to rest in my grave.

Paul

Paul, by law here in Greece, bodies are not allowed to remain unburied for 2 nights in a row, unless of course they are in the freezers in the morgue.

If someone dies late at night then they are buried the next afternoon. If they die in the morning then they are buried the next day.

They are never kept for two nights.


At funerals each mourner brings flowers and these are arranged artistically around the body in the coffin (usually by a female member of the immediate family). I added that because perhaps so many flowers surround the body in order to disguise any unpleasant aromas that might be present. The body is always washed with wine before being laid in the coffin. I have never know a body to smell, even in summer.
I suppose we're lucky here in that we can walk behind the coffin to the church, and then after the service, we walk again to the cemetery. So no long trips for the deceased in the middle of summer.

Paul, as for your last paragraph, if you're dead you're not going to be arranging anything at all. Customs change from place to place. I don't think these customs have so much to do with Orthodoxy as they have with tradition. I know that the priest comes a couple of times before the funeral itself. He also accompanies the body from the house to the church for the funeral service and then to the cemetary where he again performs a little service. I think he pours wine on the coffin and then throws a handful of dirt on it when he finishes.

Your priest will be able to tell you what needs to be done.

I just read your post again. Leave everything in God's hands. You cannot know when you will die. It might be tomorrow or it might be in 30 years. When the time comes the priest will inform the family what to do as far as our religion is concerned and your relatives will take care of everything else.

Now, for a lighter note :

Aren't we strange creatures? I don't think about coffins etc. but I do think about what the state of my house will be like if I die suddenly. I have only my husband's family here and, disregarding logic, I wouldn't want them to criticize me (even though I will be deadhttp://www.monachos.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.png). It's different when the husband dies - his wife is still alive and in charge of everything. But men tend to come apart when their wives die and they don't pay attention to the things that are important .................................................. ........................

And, if our souls are still around for 40 days as the Orthodox believe, then I will also be able to hear all the snide comments re cobwebs and dust etc.

What an adventure death is going to be!

Effie

It is so good that you have such attitude Effie. I do not care for the body like Paul has mentioned, or the snide comments (actually those will compensate for sins - since for judging which is done against us some sins are forgiven)... my terror is about the soul... how painful it will be to die... what will happen to my soul when it departs... This is what freaks me out. So much that I can not read without trembling and being terrified now, things from Fathers who speak about metaphysical issues. This just started to happen after my mom departed. Before that I had no problem reading all these things. Plus remember people will always talk! No matter what you do! My mom was the same like you, but the last days she was in a state of unconsciousness and pain and suffering that nothing was important.

You are right about the freezer. Also my mother's body stayed at home 1 night. She departed Friday after 3 PM and the body was brought to church after noon on Saturday, because at noon there was a wedding at our church. But because my mother had suffered from cancer and her womb was like a wound already and so blocked by tumor that normal human excretion could not pass through, but were excreted via mouth, after departing some hours later her body started swelling and many people said that people suffering from cancer after swelling usually have blood running from their mouths etc. so they rented a cover with glass which provided refrigeration for my mother's body. I did not like it because I kept kissing my mom and caressing her face throughout the time when she did not have this glass cover her, but then I would caress the glass and I thought she looked like Snow-white (and she had a slight smile) and wanted to take pictures but the ladies there did not allow it because "it is not good to take pictures of the departed" they said. I obeyed... what could I have done? Anyway she looked beautiful in church and she had such a happy smile after the church service that I wanted to just stay and look at her and hug and kiss her for longer and not just some seconds. She did not smell and she looked amazing. At the cemetery the smile had disappeared!!! I thought these was either my imagination or my own feelings being projected but it was real. I never forget how they closed the casket and I was kneeling to get a glimpse of her beautiful and motherly face for as long as I could! The only regret is that my mother wanted to be buried in an Orthodox cemetery and she even talked to her SF about this fear of being buried in a cemetery which is not Orthodox, but her SF said since the conditions were such as there was no Orthodox cemetery, God will provide for her soul and her body. And our family brings the priest as often as we can at the cemetery in addition to the memorial services at church.

God provides!

Because this is not an uncommon situation, there is a prayer in the trebnik for the blessing of the ground of a grave in an unblessed cemetary so that just that part of the ground is blessed and becomes a small "Orthodox cemetary".

It is a good practice to go to the graves of the loved ones and to pray there for their souls. And on the special days of remembrance as well as the anniversary of the death it is a good thing to bring the priest to the grave and to celebrate there the memorial (pannykhida in slavonic).

Fr David Moser

Wow! I did not know thaaat! Thank you Father so I do not have to be in pain.

It is a good practice to go to the graves of the loved ones and to pray there for their souls. And on the special days of remembrance as well as the anniversary of the death it is a good thing to bring the priest to the grave and to celebrate there the memorial (pannykhida in slavonic).

Fr David Moser Yes yes we do this. My family does bring the priest to the grave on those days. When I am here and can't attend I have memorial service here at church and I feel like I participated there also.

Dear Nina,

If you don't mind me asking my dear sister, where did you and your mother live that there was no Orthodox cemetery? You mentioned communism in another post. I am just a little confused, but ofcourse there is no need to respond if you do not wish to.

Be well,
In Christ,
Alice

Nina, sweetheart, you have already been comforted by Father David which is right and good.

I just wanted to add something that may warm your heart a little. My dad died in 1954 and he was buried in Fawkner cemetery almost 2 hours from my mum's house. At that time there was no Orthodox burial ground as such, but now there is. I visited his grave when I visited Australia last year. The Orthodox priest would not come to perform a trisagion, so my mum burned some incense and we prayed. It is a heavenly place and he is at rest.

I know how recent your loss is, but don't despair. Your mother is now at peace and looking after you.

Effie

Nina, you wrote :

" my terror is about the soul... how painful it will be to die... what will happen to my soul when it departs... This is what freaks me out. So much that I can not read without trembling and being terrified now, things from Fathers who speak about metaphysical issues. This just started to happen after my mom departed. Before that I had no problem reading all these things. Plus remember people will always talk! No matter what you do! My mom was the same like you, but the last days she was in a state of unconsciousness and pain and suffering that nothing was important. "

All the nonsense about having a clean house was just to lighten the mood a little.

I must tell you though that the thought of how I have betrayed the Lord with my sins makes me cringe. I know that I am totally unworthy of standing before him, but I know, absolutely, that God is love and that he will look into my soul and perhaps find something that will absolve me.

We all feel this way I think.

Effie