[Roferurse]

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Sexyredhead to seadove:
But just as you would have no respect for someone who was only nice to you when they needed something or where in a jam, God has no respect, even though He does love all of His creations. And just like lying or any other sin, the way to make up for this is to to do as He asks, repent and worship Him even in good times, and to appreciate the gifts He gives.



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seadove to sexyredhead:
Phew.

Well we\'re both saying the same thing I guess.

Maybe I\'d better go to the synagogue this saturday to repent for MY sins, just in case I sinned.

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Well in reference to our a/m yesterday\'s most valued inter-feedbacks, and what do you know? I decided not to wait until saturday to go to the synagogue.So early evening I sneaked in the local temple,no one was there, I selected a seat and started praying.

Suddenly I heard something \"Psssst!\".

I was startled.I looked left and I looked right but there was nobody there.So I continued to pray.Then it came again,\"Psst up there!\", I looked up and I saw light, and there was a man dressed in white smiling at me.I got scared sh*t, but he calmed me, saying that he was the angel Gabrielle.He goes,\"What are you doing here?\"

I said \" I came for repentance, maybe I have doing a couple of woppers.\"

He said \"Would you like to tell me about it?\".I grasped the opportunity being that he\'s so close to G-d, maybe I\'d shorten my agony and all that.So I told him EVERYTHING.

Suddenly, but really suddenly, he burst out laughing,\"Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ..........\" for a whole minute.From laughter tears rolled from his eyes and he was wiping his tears but he continued to giggle,\"Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ......\"

I told him \"Stop that! Why are you laughing at me? Be serious!!\", but no, he fell on the ground and, clutching his stomach he continued, \"Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ......\"

\"Stop that!\" I told him, \"I\'m telling you some serious stuff and you\'re laughing at me?\"

He took a grip at himself, stood up and said \"I think I\'ll have to tell you something....\" and still there were some giggles, Gabrielle still did not control himself.

Suddenly a thunderous voice echoed from behind him.\"OH, TELL HIM DAMN IT!!\"

Gabrielle straightened himself, took complete control and said,\"It seems that there was a mistake in our allocations for you.According to our books you were supposed to be a comedian.\"

And then all three of us fell on the floor laughing our as*es off for the next 5 minutes.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[actrisski]

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All I know is there is a God, the one who gave us the Bible through people He chose to write His words. For the most part its finished form has not been changed through the ages, other than translated.

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What if you did not grow up in a religious setting? Would you have that gut feeling that there is a God? What if you grew up in a foreign country or with a different religion is that not God? I am not starting a argument with you because there isn\'t one to fathem, what I am saying is as you have an opinion so do I. To me calling out one religion and saying this and that off it, when it has youth and manipulation in it seems a bit egotistical and self centered (not directed towards you).

[kathy]

i totally agree with you, tallmacky. actaully i must say i agree with the past few posts.

anyways... i think you could have a feeling that there is something greater to believe in. It\'s important to recognize whether you are believing in something you have discovered on your own, or if you are believing something you were told at some point in your life. Faith in God is often faith in some person who told you about God in the first place. On the other hand, I wouldn\'t say people only believe in God because they are told to. If you lived a secluded enough life i\'m sure it\'s possible you would still believe in SOMETHING... I think the details are unimportant. Then you find some religion and you\'re like \"YEAH!...i totally feel this way.\" It doesn\'t have to mean you are doing or believing what you\'re told.

A lot of this comes down to how picky you want to be. You can tear any belief or idea apart if you really want to. That\'s why I think it\'s a bad idea to stress over it so much. The belief itself really isn\'t so important, but its consequences ceratinly are. This is how I feel anyway. I mean, YOU can feel that YOUR beliefs are important, but it\'s not worth taking down those of others if they really don\'t harm you in any way.

[kathy]

i\'d just like to add:

thank you seadove, that actually was a very interesting post. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[actrisski]

Couldn\'t find it Ivan. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[55Beaphable]

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But, just as soon as trouble hit their lives, be it sickness, fighting a possible death or other disasters, they suddenly \"discover\" G-d, and they raise their arms toward Him and request salvation.

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No offense intended, Seadove, and I\'m certainly not trying to spark a debate here, but I don\'t completely agree with that statement. All it says to me is that those people have weak convictions and maybe a lack of will or drive. People need to believe that they are part of something bigger than themselves, some grand scheme that takes into account all the negativity in this world and neatly explains it away (just MHO there). So, it seems to me that those people who \"find God\" at the first sign of trouble either 1)never really believed He didn\'t exist in the first place (used atheism as an excuse for disregarding the principles taught by their chosen religion/denomination) or 2)use their circumstances to circumnavigate taking responsibility for the situation in which they find themselves and/or taking action to improve that situation (i.e. well if I must deal with this then it is God\'s will and through no fault of my own and/or now I put my fate in the hands of God so I don\'t have to deal with it myself). I realize I just stomped all over many people\'s beliefs, and I apologize for that. I just felt I needed to respond to your comment. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[Ferrotoral]

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1)never really believed He didn\'t exist in the first place (used atheism as an excuse for disregarding the principles taught by their chosen religion/denomination) or

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That is right. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] (Allthough I have never been taught any principles ....)
Personally I can\'t imagine I will start to believe in God when I am old or sick. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[55Beaphable]

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My opinion is that it\'s weak and lazy to only serve your religion when you\'re in a jam. I was taught that God loves those who believe in Him totally, not just when they really need something. Either do it totally, or not at all.

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Exactly, SRH. That\'s exactly what I mean. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I wasn\'t advocating one religion over another or even questioning the existence of a higher power- I believe what I believe and I don\'t expect everyone to agree with me. I think we\'re on the same level with this [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] My point was, just as you said, if people truly believed their convictions then they wouldn\'t turn their backs on those beliefs at the first sign of trouble.

[MADwanker]

I agree with you, I think. I\'m not sure if it\'s whether they totally BELIEVE or whether they\'re more concerned about what the rest of the world thinks and are too weak to stick up for what they believe in.

But think about it. Would you want a friend that ditches you at the first sign that somebody disapproves?

[actrisski]

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Yes, absolutely!! My argument is IF it was evolution that got us to what we are now I would say that we would have been far, far more ugly that what the human race is today ,

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Now that is some great proof. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] How do you know Humans are not ugly, in what context are you speaking of? I bet some of us would consider a dog or a pig pretty ugly, but to themselves I bet they \"don\'t\" see it and continue to have sex with eachother. Human beings to eachother are not ugly of course, if we were what sense would that make? If God makes such beautiful beings how come some humans in our own state of mind are extremely ugly? I guess that\'s a whole new debate in itself.

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The converters can be explained. If I told you to tell me I am the best you would be like ahhh no I won\'t say that, you let me put a gun to your head and ask again I am sure I will get what I want. Those who are converting may be weaker and now can use a crutch, I have seen it with some of the most religious people around and when their problem is gone for some reason religion slips away too. Isn\'t religion partially a tool?

[Roferurse]

DVK and Franki,

My argument was not trying to convert anyone to believe in G-d or not, and I myself am not so deep in religion,I take from Judaism what is suited for me and as for the difficult tasks in my religion I tend to leave aside. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]
But if we are talking about believing in the very existance of G-d? Yes, absolutely!! My argument is IF it was evolution that got us to what we are now I would say that we would have been far, far more ugly that what the human race is today [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img], taking into consideration the so many harsh developments that occured during the million years of that same evolution.

There is no attempt on my side to convert people into believing or even not believing in G-d.The essay that I posted was of a different nature altogether.

And as for the bracketed quote under DVK\'s post,In my life I have seen people \"suddenly\" believing in the existance of G-d when sorrow or trajedy hit them.I see it all the time in my religion.

[Roferurse]

Brouze through that site until you get to \"The Zohar\".

But you\'d better fasten your seatbelt!!This is heavy stuff.

I opened out to you the relevant pages about parts of the human being as written in the Zohar which is one small part of Kaballah.

[MADwanker]

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But there\'s another place in the Bible (new testament, I believe)

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I\'m afraid I don\'t know much about the new testiment.I\'m having a hard time to cope up with the old one, with all the other jewish books.

But that is quite hard to believe, because as I know it, Jesus was a jew but his teachings at that time was way too liberal for the Rabbis .So I think that the teachings of Christ was liberal, lenient to the believers and also he gave enough \"space\" for repent and self corrections.

Hope I\'m right.

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Where from my post did you get that God is not lenient? He\'s extremely lenient. That\'s why there\'s all that room for repentence and correction.

But just as you would have no respect for someone who was only nice to you when they needed something or where in a jam, God has no respect, even though He does love all of His creations. And just like lying or any other sin, the way to make up for this is to to do as He asks, repent and worship Him even in good times, and to appreciate the gifts He gives.

[actrisski]

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Then why not just tell the truth?

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My point was this girl may not be a religious hero as many like to think, she simple was caught up in the moment.

Hey do you like the color red?

Um No....BANG.

Did I know what someone wanted to hear, so if I was to know I could form a lie?

[MADwanker]

Ok, let me correct that. You\'re right. But there\'s another place in the Bible (new testament, I believe) that says God has no respect for \'part-time\' believers. They make him angrier than those who don\'t believe at all.

That was the point I was trying to make.

[actrisski]

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It\'s God I love, not the Bible. The Bible is God\'s Word. And yes, I see God in the things He does, I feel his presence when I pray--and yes, at other times too. I feel His comfort when I need it, and I feel His disapproval when I\'ve done something wrong. You don\'t understand. You\'re looking at this from a \'what\'s in it for me\' viewpoint. God speaks--in a still, small voice. You have to really listen, but it\'s there. By praying, going to church, studying His Word, etc, you develop a relationship with Him that\'s stronger than any other relationship you can have.

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How can you love God but not the Bile? If it wasn\'t for the Bible\'s existence you would not know of a \"God\". I have the same voice that I hear when I do something wrong, when I do something right, I just call it my concious.

[actrisski]

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The thing that separates us from animals is that we have a conscience. We know right from wrong. Yes, there are people out there who don\'t listen to it, but that doesn\'t mean it\'s not there. And there are people forced into desperate situations where they have to make very hard decisions, but again, they know right from wrong.

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Not everyone knows right from wrong, there are people so ignorant and twisted with their actions you would be shocked. There are people who feel nothing, who have no empathy or caring, I believe they are called Sociopaths. Sociopaths have abosolutly no concious, and no remorse, they do not chose to be this way instead genetics chose them. That\'s another one of the million intersting loopholes. Why would God let a creature exist who actually enjoys savage behavior, and has no concious what would be the point of that? You can tell me I could never understand the point, but aren\'t we as Humans above all animals? Doesn\'t always seem like it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[kathy]

you can\'t blame the bible (or any religion) for the stupidity and/or corruption of its followers. I don\'t take most of the bible literally, but I think every word is true and good in it\'s own way. As far as the history mentioned, I really don\'t see why any of it should not be true. However, having only read bits and pieces (which admittedly makes me FAR from qualified to comment as i am), I might have missed parts that could use such historical reference to create a sense of superiority in a particular race. Such things may have been added over time to abuse the power of the bible for personal gain. However, I have yet to read a passage, or hear one cited, that led me to believe i was being manipulated by the bible\'s message. Of course that isn\'t to say people don\'t USE the power of the bible to manipulate others....again that isn\'t really the fault of the bible.

[55Beaphable]

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The converters can be explained. If I told you to tell me I am the best you would be like ahhh no I won\'t say that, you let me put a gun to your head and ask again I am sure I will get what I want. Those who are converting may be weaker and now can use a crutch, I have seen it with some of the most religious people around and when their problem is gone for some reason religion slips away too. Isn\'t religion partially a tool?

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Yep.