[anaisdannyxys]

It took me years to come to grips with this. Why do so many people cling to irrational beliefs? Why do so many people not only reject reasonable arguments that contradict their beliefs, but believe those that deliver these arguments as crazy? The answer is simple: logical arguments don't work very well, but emotional arguments do! Some of us are lucky enough to be extremely resistant to emotional arguments. Some of us believe that we are even immune to them. One thing that I've come to believe is that anyone can fall victim to an emotional argument. We all have varying levels of vulnerability, but no one is above being manipulated.

Characteristics of Logical Arguments vs. Characteristics of Emotional Arguments

Logical arguments are:
direct
simple
singular in expression (no undertones or multiple meanings, what you see/hear is what you get)
devoid of emotion (obvious)
reasonable

Emotional arguments are:
indirect
convoluted
expressing emotion (often times they even use language that conveys emotion, like angry, sad, etc)
abstract
suggestive
often made in secondary and tertiary expression (for example, body language is used in a face to face emotional argument)

Characteristics can tell us what to look out for when hearing arguments. For example, charisma is often a form of manipulation, because it is a non spoken, indirect, and non verbal means of communication. 'Way with words' or 'Gift of Gab' can also be a red flag. Personality characteristics are not in and of themselves indicative of purely emotional arguments, but when coupled with other characteristics one can often infer the intent of the argument.
'Arguments' can be conveyed in non traditional means and still have an effect on the unaware and unprepared. Think advertising.

It's useful to observe the degree of efficacy of certain types of arguments in others. First of all, it helps prevent bad feelings and animosity (how can he/she be so stupid?). Second, it often helps one guard themselves against falling prey to the same types of arguments. In general, the efficacy of any argument has little to do with the truth value or rationality of the argument, rather the intensity of the emotions that the argument appeals to (for most people, that is). This is why arguments appealing to ethnocentricity are so powerful.

When carefully considered this information can be both helpful and depressing. The bad guys almost always use emotional arguments and the good guys try to use logical arguments whenever possible. How can this possibly be anything other than an overwhelming advantage for those that prefer manipulation to truth? I don't think that it can. It explains a lot, but unfortunately it doesn't solve much unless one is willing to engage in the same types of underhanded manipulation that the other side is so willing to engage in.

dys

[JohnMaltczevitch]

For bonus points, exercise the observational skills outlined in the post on the post itself.

[bestcigsnick]

For bonus points, exercise the observational skills outlined in the post on the post itself.

OK. I'm listening, whatcha got?

dys

[Kemapreedasse]

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and I woke more people up with emotional arguments than I did with logical ones. This saddens me but I did what I had to do to get the job done, and always tried to turn people back onto the path of logic at the end.



In martial arts there is the concept of blending. It is so very hard to counter somebody's force directly - but if you blend with their force (go the same direction as they are) it immediately unbalances them, and their power becomes your power.


Sometimes you have to (unfortunately) argue this way, as well. People want to be scared, they are conditioned to be scared. They don't believe there is a problem if they are not scared. So you scare them a little bit, followed by logical, rational solutions. Usually I make an emphasis on personal responsibility and taking personal power back for onesself.


I mean, it isn't out and out dishonest to use emotional arguments, but it isn't exactly honest either. What we are facing IS scary, but what we are facing has no emotional solutions. Only logical ones. Gut reactions, revenge, blanket accusations, etc, are going to go nowhere. The only solutions to TPTB-problem are exposure and logic.

[indartwm]

Argument is synonomous with babbling. Better to stick with reason than with argument.


ARGUMENT, practice. Cicero defines it ii probable reason proposed in order to induce belief. Ratio probabilis et idonea ad faciendam fidem. The logicians define it more scientifically to be a means, which by its connexion between two extremes) establishes a relation between them. REASON. By reason is usually understood that power by which we distinguish truth from falsehood, and right from wrong; and by which we are enabled to combine means for the attainment of particular ends. Encyclopedie, h. t.; Shef. on Lun. Introd. xxvi. Ratio in jure aequitas integra.

2. A man deprived of reason is not criminally responsible for his acts, nor can he enter into any contract.

3. Reason is called the soul of the law; for when the reason ceases, the law itself ceases.

[ResuNezily]

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and I woke more people up with emotional arguments than I did with logical ones. This saddens me but I did what I had to do to get the job done, and always tried to turn people back onto the path of logic at the end.



In martial arts there is the concept of blending. It is so very hard to counter somebody's force directly - but if you blend with their force (go the same direction as they are) it immediately unbalances them, and their power becomes your power.


Sometimes you have to (unfortunately) argue this way, as well. People want to be scared, they are conditioned to be scared. They don't believe there is a problem if they are not scared. So you scare them a little bit, followed by logical, rational solutions. Usually I make an emphasis on personal responsibility and taking personal power back for onesself.


I mean, it isn't out and out dishonest to use emotional arguments, but it isn't exactly honest either. What we are facing IS scary, but what we are facing has no emotional solutions. Only logical ones. Gut reactions, revenge, blanket accusations, etc, are going to go nowhere. The only solutions to TPTB-problem are exposure and logic.

Interesting that you reference arguments related to personal responsibility. I've observed that arguments directed at personal responsibility tend to be very powerful arguments. I think in this way TPTB often create a very distorted sense of personal responsibility in the proles that tends to result in the 'blame the victim' phenomena.

Orwell: "The integrated man seldom has a developed sense of responsibility." (paraphrase, I can't find the exact quote)

dys

[movlabc]

Dysgenic, you wrote that yourself, I give you great credit.

And you wrote it in a timely fashion when it is needed.

Many people follow their friends around when they do wrong,
follow likable personable people, affable people, " the life of the party ",
many women are like this too in relationships, they don't like the " boring "
" too serious " guy who does not lie and refuses to put on a mask.

Dysgenic wrote what he wrote I strongly believe because of Joe King.

Joe King a divider. He is in chat befriending people, not just on these
forums.

Some people here would tell me to shut up, they should shut it, this
is a good case study, just as gim was a good case study, we all learn.

This is a shit hit the fan forum, it does disturb me when I see people
here that are more aware and awake fall for this type of crap with someone
that is messed up in the head judging him by his posts " of substance. "

People here should be leaders, encourage others to do the right thing,
stand for the right thing, support the righteous, stand together in unity
where ever possible.

The Sirens, an old allegory, what is it about, ? , follow the Sirens,
sweet tongues in your ear, destroy your ship, destroy your men,
destroy yourself.

Do not follow the Sirens !


This is why dysgenic isn't getting a thanks. lol
" This is why arguments appealing to ethnocentricity are so powerful. " ? ? ?
Is that an emotional argument or a logical argument ? LOL !
What is dysgenic saying here ?

[affozyBoomi]

Some of us are lucky enough to be extremely resistant to emotional arguments.

Not really. I think the key thing to realize is that the conscious thoughts we have bouncing around in our heads are not based primarily on the logic we apply to them. When you understand that, then you can use that self-awareness modify your behavior in a non-superficial way. The added benefit is how you interact with others.


Emotions


Emotions: These three lines in the chart relate to Emotions, and are further explained in their individual sections.
Which comes first? It is a very common to ask, "Which comes first, thoughts or emotions?" The answer is, "both!" By understanding the law and process of Karma, this is easy to see.

• When the Deep Impressions or Samskaras are triggered or awakened, they align with the primary Emotion of Desire itself.
• The emotional process then leads to a thought process that is typically only partially conscious.
• This leads to the surface mental awareness of the thoughts and the ensuing actions and speech.

Latent thoughts > Emotions > Active thoughts: Thus, we see that the latent thought impressions (stored from our countless experiences) lead to an emotional process, which then lead to an active thought process, which, in turn, leads to actions and speech. This Active thought process occurs through an aspect of mind called manas in Yoga science and sensory-motor mind in psychology.
(See manas in the article, Four Functions of Mind)
Witness the Emotions often during daily life: It is extremely useful to become a witness to our own emotional processes during our actions in the world. Isn't it true that we often, and easily observe the gestures, body language, and emotional reactions of others? If we can so easily see it in others, we can also see it in ourselves. By clearly seeing our own positive and negative emotions (those are the culprits), we can promote or strengthen the positive, useful emotions like love, compassion, benevolence, and acceptance (See Yoga Sutra 1.33 for meditation on these positive emotions). Witnessing our own body language, speech, actions, and our emotional reactions will give us a mirror reflection of our Deep Impressions or Samskaras. It also allows us to see the predictable ways in which the Four Primitive Fountains (food, sleep, sex, self-preservation) play out. Thus, we not only learn to regulate our emotions in positive ways, but also come to see the roots from which they arise. This self-witnessing in daily life is a major part of Karma Yoga, going along with doing our actions selflessly for others.




So here is a practical example of all this: we have public debate in the media about whether we should go to war, which candidate for president is the best one. The msm pushes zionism, and the public genuinely seems to swallow it. There is no conspiracy here, the public wants this. The reason is not because of a debate based on logic, it's because of 911. That large, spectacular event, created deep impressions in people. This leads to emotions, then, which lead to superficial debate.

It is only another deep impression that will change things. A war, starvation, or some other traumatic event. Don't waste your time with logic...and don't assume you arrived here by logic either. There was probably something that had a deep influence on you that caused you to go down this path.

I believe deep impressions are what's known as the red pill/blue pill. It's not so much a logical thing as a deeper thing that you don't have direct access to. It can either be modified over time by many small things, or quickly by something traumatic.

[tramadolwithall]

Dys,

You make it sound like if a person has 'emotions", that it's a bad thing or something.
When you are arguing with someone that has an unhealthy emotional state of mind
and then perhaps mix that with no (to little) critical thinking skills , you are talking about a disastrous, unproductive, complete waste of time & energy.

If you're arguing with someone who has a pretty strong emotional/ mental state of mind & is smart enough to not be brainshwashed by the way of the world, and has honed their critical thinking then you can have a productive argument.

Most women use emotion when arguing because that's just how alot of women do the control thing
(due to their own insecurities of who they are ) but NOT ALL of them.
Men generally DO NOT because they are not emotional creatures like women, however, I'll explain later about why some men do also show emotion in arguments.


Healthy emotions are good ! I see no problem with it, when people get in touch with who they really are on a spiritual level, they know where they stand, they know who they are.


When reading Nocturnal's post, it does resonate with me alot in that FEAR is a major driving force in people in ALOT of areas in life.
I totally get where he's coming from.

I do not like to argue, I have a big mouth on here, I know, but you see,
I am a very passionate person who expresses the LOGICAL part of me THROUGH the EMOTIONAL side of me.

Some people appreciate my passion & emotion , some people are repulsed.

When you are dealing with what has become of this world & the depraved society that we live in,
I see people walking around drugged up on TONS of anti-anxiety and anti-depressants so that they don't have to feel ANYTHING. They want to be NUMB.
They prefer it that way so that they don't have to feel their pain. Too bad that don't get to feel any joy , either. They're like zombies.

When a person (man or woman) has NO coping skills, they tend to have unhealthy emotional states of mind that make them say & do irrational things. When they hear a truth, it is seen, felt as crazy because they cannot process this horrible thought into their mind of what you are talking about so they argue with an unhealthy, unable -to-cope-mindset that becomes an "emotional" argument that is like talking to a WALL !
(Also, having no coping skills is what leads people to use drugs, abuse alcohol, etc)

Now when dealing with the enemy. One MUST be ready EMOTIONALLY and LOGICALLY !
It is a must ! You cannot defend yourself against ANY enemy without first having a healthy emotional state of mind as well as being a logical , critical thinker.

Just ma dumb 2 cents on that'n ! Whew, I got it all out in one breath ! Ha

[bZEUWO4F]

It's interesting TNE wrote about using emotion to wake people up. Themistocles successfully convinced the Greeks to build up their Navy to fight the Persians at sea. He KNEW they would attack by sea but couldn't convince anyone else. He played on people's emotion to get the funding necessary to build the Navy.

To Dysgenic's point, manipulation isn't ALWAYS used to harm the people being manipulated.

Remember That!

[everlastinge]

Great post vacuum, all logic has its base in emotion.

In the heat of argument a piece of logic (when challenged) retraces to the the source, then has tendency to burn anything in its path.

People more familiar with those courses within themselves, more often than not come out on top in the end.

[Tazqoaap]

It's interesting TNE wrote about using emotion to wake people up. Themistocles successfully convinced the Greeks to build up their Navy to fight the Persians at sea. He KNEW they would attack by sea but couldn't convince anyone else. He played on people's emotion to get the funding necessary to build the Navy.

To Dysgenic's point, manipulation isn't ALWAYS used to harm the people being manipulated.

Remember That!

I think that is what The Prince is all about (I actually have not read it yet; though I bought it many years ago).

[refsherne]

The discussion is framed in terms of logical vs. emotional, but let's also look at logical vs. spiritual.
I've always considered myself to be a very logical person but my level of spiritual awareness is zero. I've had friends who considered themselves to be the exact opposite who arrived at the same conclusions I did in spite of it.
I think it's possible that some people who are grounded in spirituality also happen to be logical, but never admit it to themselves, and vice-versa.

[Clunlippibe]

Maybe they've found a way to arrive at the same conclusion using their spirituality??

[grinaJanoDant]

Dysgenic, you wrote that yourself, I give you great credit.

And you wrote it in a timely fashion when it is needed.

Many people follow their friends around when they do wrong,
follow likable personable people, affable people, " the life of the party ",
many women are like this too in relationships, they don't like the " boring "
" too serious " guy who does not lie and refuses to put on a mask.

Dysgenic wrote what he wrote I strongly believe because of Joe King.

Joe King a divider. He is in chat befriending people, not just on these
forums.

Some people here would tell me to shut up, they should shut it, this
is a good case study, just as gim was a good case study, we all learn.

This is a shit hit the fan forum, it does disturb me when I see people
here that are more aware and awake fall for this type of crap with someone
that is messed up in the head judging him by his posts " of substance. "

People here should be leaders, encourage others to do the right thing,
stand for the right thing, support the righteous, stand together in unity
where ever possible.

The Sirens, an old allegory, what is it about, ? , follow the Sirens,
sweet tongues in your ear, destroy your ship, destroy your men,
destroy yourself.

Do not follow the Sirens !


This is why dysgenic isn't getting a thanks. lol
" This is why arguments appealing to ethnocentricity are so powerful. " ? ? ?
Is that an emotional argument or a logical argument ? LOL !
What is dysgenic saying here ?

RE: With regard to ethnocentricity, I had in mind the type 'patriotic' (euphemism) thinking that allows for things like justifying undeclared wars, belief in corrupt government officials, etc. I wasn't referring to the Jewish question.

dys

[sbgctsa]

Dys,

You make it sound like if a person has 'emotions", that it's a bad thing or something.
When you are arguing with someone that has an unhealthy emotional state of mind
and then perhaps mix that with no (to little) critical thinking skills , you are talking about a disastrous, unproductive, complete waste of time & energy.

If you're arguing with someone who has a pretty strong emotional/ mental state of mind & is smart enough to not be brainshwashed by the way of the world, and has honed their critical thinking then you can have a productive argument.

Most women use emotion when arguing because that's just how alot of women do the control thing
(due to their own insecurities of who they are ) but NOT ALL of them.
Men generally DO NOT because they are not emotional creatures like women, however, I'll explain later about why some men do also show emotion in arguments.


Healthy emotions are good ! I see no problem with it, when people get in touch with who they really are on a spiritual level, they know where they stand, they know who they are.


When reading Nocturnal's post, it does resonate with me alot in that FEAR is a major driving force in people in ALOT of areas in life.
I totally get where he's coming from.

I do not like to argue, I have a big mouth on here, I know, but you see,
I am a very passionate person who expresses the LOGICAL part of me THROUGH the EMOTIONAL side of me.

Some people appreciate my passion & emotion , some people are repulsed.

When you are dealing with what has become of this world & the depraved society that we live in,
I see people walking around drugged up on TONS of anti-anxiety and anti-depressants so that they don't have to feel ANYTHING. They want to be NUMB.
They prefer it that way so that they don't have to feel their pain. Too bad that don't get to feel any joy , either. They're like zombies.

When a person (man or woman) has NO coping skills, they tend to have unhealthy emotional states of mind that make them say & do irrational things. When they hear a truth, it is seen, felt as crazy because they cannot process this horrible thought into their mind of what you are talking about so they argue with an unhealthy, unable -to-cope-mindset that becomes an "emotional" argument that is like talking to a WALL !
(Also, having no coping skills is what leads people to use drugs, abuse alcohol, etc)

Now when dealing with the enemy. One MUST be ready EMOTIONALLY and LOGICALLY !
It is a must ! You cannot defend yourself against ANY enemy without first having a healthy emotional state of mind as well as being a logical , critical thinker.

Just ma dumb 2 cents on that'n ! Whew, I got it all out in one breath ! Ha

The problem is not one of having emotions. The problem occurs when one believes or trusts emotions. This phenomena has been called 'feelings before facts'. Regardless of healthy or unhealthy states of emotion (and I agree that healthy emotions are important, btw), emotions are generally not good indicators of truth. Emotions and truth may be one and the same, but this is correlation and not causation. Reason and logic are far more reliable indicators of truth than emotion.

dys

[phenterminediett]

I imagine a sober population would be out now murdering each other in uncontrollable rage.

For sound logical reasons.

Leave it to the master, to make the case for Big Pharma.

[suingincentix]

You can imitate Ponce.......but you will never be like Ponce....... hahahahahahaah

HEYYYYYYYYYYYYY is all about Ponce, no?

[casinobonuswer]

Alcohol - Impeding the free flow of fear through the chakra & homeostasis to the masses.

What happens when they raise the tax on it 5%?

Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.
Frank Zappa
Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...#ixzz1j6AlgJ70

[asivisepo]