[qwerty1]

http://moneymorning.com/2011/10/12/d...et-to-explode/

[johnsonjunior]

Paper floats (maritime law) while Rock (common law) sinks. Scissors cuts Paper but won't touch Rock.

Unless a derivative has been chiseled in stone carrying a simple scissors will handle the situation.

[VewCoorkPow]

Article claims JPM, BoA, Goldman, and Citi hold 95.5% of all derivatives. GOOD. Let 'em burn!

[VINPELA]

going on 4 years now...

[traithJah]

'time bomb' & 'explode' make for a better headline than "banks will fail in cascading series involving counterparty risk."


we all saw what counterparty risk means in 2007-2008. banks write insurance contracts they can't back, confident that the US gov. will bail them out.

and when they write the contracts, they make the obvious mistake of assuming that all of the insurance could not come due at once. in the mean-time, they are happy to collect premiums on the insurance - it's an advanced form of usury.


then there's the obvious implication - if the US gov is going to bail them out without increasing the deficit faster than Congress can raise the debt ceiling, they will HAVE to print money.

both those terms, "counterparty risk" and "Print Money" - you would think they would make people appreciate PM's more. PM's are getting more popular but i don't see them getting widely popular.

makes me wonder if US agribiz is putting fluoride in the milk - and the beer - and the orange juice. 280+ million saw 2007/8 go down, but many of them have managed to convince themselves that the economy is better because the stock market is 'up'.

meanwhile, half of America is living paycheck to paycheck or welfare check to welfare check, and doesn't have the FRN's with which to buy PM's.


since we can see some of what's going on, i wonder what will be different tomorrow or in a few weeks when the House of Cards falls again. we get of taste of it with Belgium nationalizing Dexia and the EU & EFSF creating a bail-out fund somewhere between 400 billion & 3 trillion Euro's. seems like Europe is just doing what the US did - print money to bail out the children who run the banks (no offense to children, at least they're innocent).

[Sdzqerty]

I've seen from multiple sources that these things number near or over $1 quadrillion. How can they even measure when they're OTC?

[VewCoorkPow]

This whole economy isn't even real anymore. Hasn't been for years. There's no conceivable way to pay back what's owed.

My Opinion:
At this point, there's a gentlemen's agreement between Banking and Industry to keep this going until they can't be Rich MFer's anymore. Once they can't be Rich MFer's anymore, out come the guns.

[johnsonjunior]

There's no conceivable way to pay back what's owed.

Nothing has been repaid since gold was removed from circulation in '33. Hard to believe that people don't understand this concept.

[avitalporatova]

People do understand that is in fact a true statement relative to repaying with money of substance, however, the debt talked of here is owed back in the same form as it was borrowed. That form was not gold or silver.

So you would repay a promise to pay with another promise? Payment in kind?

Why would you repay the loaned paper with gold? That wouldn't make any sense at all.

This must be your remedy because I never suggested it. Compelled performance requires you do what you say you will do. The impossible is not included yet if you do not find an honorable solution you will continue with your present slavery.

[paydayuscf]

Paper floats (maritime law) while Rock (common law) sinks. Scissors cuts Paper but won't touch Rock.

Unless a derivative has been chiseled in stone carrying a simple scissors will handle the situation.

So how do I get these scissors you describe?

[johnsonjunior]

That is the form of the original loan, isn't it?
ie when one borrows in our current system, they are borrowing against their own promise to pay and then spending it into circulation.
...and the system requires an ever increasing amount of new debt with which to service the old.

The promise to pay in this system IS the payment. At the end of the day the books balance. So what is this "debt" you speak of?

Right. What the debtor said he would do is to repay in-kind. ie If you borrow FRNs you pay back in FRNs. If you borrow gold you pay back in gold etc etc

You would be correct if the concept of novation did not exist.

The problem is that we've reached the point that we need more new debt creation than can be assumed at the present time.

The problem is the system isn't going to recognize or protect your private property rights when everything belongs to the benevolent state.

[johnsonjunior]

So how do I get these scissors you describe?

Mug a kindergartener.

[avitalporatova]

Ok. You go into a bank to take out a loan. You sign a note promising to pay and they push a pile of FRNs to you in the form of bank credit which you use to aquire goods or services you wouldn't otherwise been able to get.
What you've promised to repay in exchange is the same FRNs you got, plus rent for their use. {not necessarily the same physical FRNs, but just FRNs in general whether they be electronic or physical}
...and the "you" I am using is in third party and could include anyone, not just you, because I know you'd never do such a thing as sign a promisory note for FRNs yourself.

Actually the failure of the system is that, while you can borrow money for the principle into existence, you have to depend on someone else to produce the interest that you are going to repay.

Since this is beyond your control then you may as well default on the loan the next day. The mechanics are not there to let you repay WITH INTEREST.

[HagsPusia]

Article claims JPM, BoA, Goldman, and Citi hold 95.5% of all derivatives. GOOD. Let 'em burn!

The got the shell corps waiting in the winds to asorb the losses so that they can live on as new entities free of the mayhem they wrought upon others

[cut sifted ephedra sinica]

Actually the failure of the system is that, while you can borrow money for the principle into existence, you have to depend on someone else to produce the interest that you are going to repay.

Since this is beyond your control then you may as well default on the loan the next day. The mechanics are not there to let you repay WITH INTEREST.

No. I think you are taking a principle beyond its useful realm. Someone paying back FRNs with FRNs is not committing dishonor as in not fulfilling a contract. Also, your own labor allows you to earn more to make payments that you did not have earlier. This is not putting a burden on someone else. I understand your concept of the burden being the need to increase money supply in order to pay off more than was borrowed. The principle is the same for credit money just the same as debt money. The exception is: who pockets the interest (time value of money)?

None of this argument matters compared with the crimes being committed by the banks in the trillions of dollars range. Key people are now in positions to consolidate physical holdings by requiring the collateral to be given in exchange for the fake money they created. They will use their power over governments to enforce the contracts in their favor and require the governments to assume the contracts against them.

[johnsonjunior]

Which is where we are today.

Today Maddoff makes it clear the entire system is a Ponzi scheme.

Does that apply to everything in life that is beyond ones own direct control?

Only those things where failure is pre-ordained.

As for the interest, what do you think happens to it? It goes in a black hole? No, rather the bank spends it and it re-enters circulation thereby making it avaliable for you to earn at your job so that you might be able to repay your note.

Use a scissors on it to test if it is real. While you are at it do the same to the bank.

What this does is add a scaricity element to their "money". ie you gotta go scratch and claw to get it in the rat race called life. It's the built in drive to keep your nose to the proverbial grindstone and is why, ultimately, our monetary system is backed by something called sweat.

Would you explain how this is "our" monetary system when I refuse to participate in it?

[avitalporatova]

It always has been for at least the past 97 years. Anyone who didn't realize that until Madoff came along, wasn't caring enough to pay attention.

The present monetary system is a Ponzi scheme yet you CHOOSE to use it. There are alternatives if you would CHOOSE to investigate them.

Yes, that is the bad part of a debt based monetary system. However, the reason it was started was as a means to allow the "money" supply to grow sufficiently to accomodate societies needs as it grew.
Long-term however it creates a sticky problem as we are now seeing.

The reason a debt based money system was developed was because there was insufficient gold or silver to back the existing debt. Rather than accept bankruptcy the system was changed to make debt a valuable medium of exchange rather than a dishonored promise.

It's "ours" in the sense that, right or wrong, it's what's been provided for us to use.

You CHOOSE to use it because you prefer to propogate fraud on others rather than determine alternatives that are more honorable.

...and I'd still like to see video of you spending SAE's at the grocery store for their silver value.

If you SHOULD see a video as you describe then you would understand that the purchase would make the items in question PRIVATE PROPERTY. The policy of the state is that PRIVATE PROPERTY has been abolished. Why would I desire to engage the state in an argument when I have been told to agree with my opponent? Instead I choose to agree that there is no PRIVATE PROPERTY and I agree to the USE of the item rather than the USUFRUCT. The state can have the item back when I am done using it.

[johnsonjunior]

http://adask.wordpress.com/2011/10/1...me-2/#comments

If so, could the U.S. economy, based on use of the privately-issued, US fiat dollar–also be presumed in law to be just another private “barter club”? Is our national economy presumed in law to be a “club“? Insofar as we merely use US fiat dollars, are we presumed to be members of that private “barter club” called the Federal Reserve System? Are we presumed to be subject to certain “laws” of the Federal Reserve System/”Barter Club” every time we use it’s currency?

If so, are those who trade in gold and silver coins deemed to be “members” of a completely different (constitutional) “barter club” and thus subject to a different set of laws unique to their particular “barter club”?

[LClan439]

[johnsonjunior]

Yes, you can use SAEs and GAEs at face value.

Simply because one chooses to not participate in fraud does not qualify them as stupid.

Why couldn't it have been devalued and left in circulation?

Why don't you ask congress. They have been assigned the duty of establishing the value of money.

How does anyone know if you use it or not? Anyone that matters, that is.

You know. Do you matter?

Everything I aquire is private property. How does anyone know what form of "money" I used to aquire said item?

How can you ACQUIRE private property when you ARE private property?

As example, if I mow my neighbors lawn for the agreed upon price of $31.98 {current silver spot} and when I finsh mowing I am offered FRNs worth $31.98 and I take them to the store and trade them for a product I want, how does anyone or anything ever know how I got it or that I didn't use silver money to buy it?
They can't prove I used FRNs so it can't be claimed as theirs. {the Feds}

The test is if you can exist as a free man and continue to HOLD possession. What do you own that is not subject to seizure?

Or conversely, if I am offered an SAE at metal weight value for mowing and I use it to aquire the same item, how does anyone know what I gave for it or that I didn't use FRNs?

Same TEST. Can it be seized? Are you willing to protect your possession with your blood?

Either way there is no record of any of the transactions.

What need of records when we (society) can just come in an take it?

That is the use of the item.

Usufruct originates from civil law, where it is a real right of limited duration on the property of another. The holder of an usufruct, known as the usufructuary, has the right to use and enjoy the property, as well as the right to receive profits from the fruits of the property. The English word usufruct derives from the Latin expression usus et fructus, meaning "use and enjoyment", cognate to English "use and fruits".

Use is simply the possession. Usufruct is the possession and ENJOYMENT. Both concepts are from civil (Roman) law to the extent that the common law draws from the Roman law. Communist law takes private property rights. You have no defense against such a state that desires to separate you from your property. That is because you have no property. You are property instead (chattel ... cattle).

This has all been perfectly fascinating, Joe, but if you really want to investigate these ideas I suggest you think of all the ways a free man is free and all the ways a slave can be controlled. Then as a test just take one of those slave controlled mechanisms and treat it as if you were instead free. Proclaim your freedom in this area to the state and watch the result. You will learn much more by doing this than by theorizing that you are free in every way.