[HugoSimon]

http://www.ronpaul.com/2009-01-27/ro...-free-markets/

...and?

[Xlkl9SFd]

He's right that there's no such thing as a free lunch. But even a trillion dollars isn't worth what it used to be worth. It is not of the magnitude that would push us into depression. Rather, it will decrease economic growth over the next decade or two as we pay off the trillion.

[anatmob]

Seriously. Of course Ron Paul hates the idea of a fiscal stimulus.

Setting aside beliefs (though I don't doubt Paul really believes this), it's probably a good idea for Republicans to oppose the stimulus. If it works (or is perceived to work), it's Obama's plan anyway. Them supporting it gains them what? If it doesn't work (or is perceived to not work) they gain credibility with the public. Nate Silver (and others) have been talking about this lately... if you're a congressional Republican, why would you support the stimulus? The only reason I can come up with is that you really believe it is best for the country, and that's your primary motivation, political consequences be damned. The odds of finding that sort of belief (that fiscal stimulus will help) in a Republican in Congress, especially given the ideological purging that has been going on, is rather unlikely.

-Arrian

[JesikaFclq]

I guess. But based on the election results, the Republicans have nowhere to go but up. So why not gamble?

-Arrian

[GutleNus]

Well, I do think ideology is heavily involved. Republicans generally do not believe government is useful when it comes to this sort of thing. Therefore, they're going to do their damndest to poke holes in the plan (and try to sound reasonable doing it). From their PoV, they're doing a good thing if they can stop it.

I agree that much of the money not being spent until 2010 is a problem. The solution, IMO, is not to reject the idea of a stimulus, but rather to find a way to spend the money in 2009... which likely involves FDRish programs that Republicans will HATE. So to me the problem with the "shovel ready" criticism is that it's not really honest. If there WERE enough shovel ready projects, they'd be opposing the stimulus on other grounds.

-Arrian

[feeshyLew]

Isn't Ron Paul just another retarded libertarian?

[JennyStewarta]

So basically because "The Right" has ideological objections to government spending/pork and favors tax cuts than any legitimate suggestions for improvement of a bill by any Republican should be thrown out the window since they obviously just have an axe to grind. Sounds like lawmakers are either with you or against you.

[lammaredder]

...

as we pay off the trillion.

Do you know something I don't?

I guess. But based on the election results, the Republicans have nowhere to go but up. So why not gamble? Or they could go nowhere.

The real problem is that there are two arguments that get mixed up. There's a theoretical argument about whether fiscal stimulus could be good in an ideal situation on which the GOP and neoclassical economists are dead wrong on. Then there's the practical argument about whether this particular stimulus will be any good.

There's plenty of reasonable arguments against the current bill. I personally think they need to split the immediate spending from long-term reforms, rush through the former, and discuss the latter thoroughly. A rushed bill that tries to do too much will invariably fail or be less efficient than several well debated smaller bills. Obviously the sooner we get funding to the states, shovel-ready projects, etc. the better. There's no reason to tack on the long-term measures on to that.

[acceraStoof]

if you're a congressional Republican, why would you support the stimulus?

Because you know the recession is going to end in the next couple years (most likely before the end of 2009), know that Obama's stimulus is going to be credited for the turnaround even though it won't have made much of a difference and know that the media will jump at any chance to hammer the GOP for standing in the way of The One. You'd have to be either brave or stupid to vote against this stimulus.

[glopomcyte]

Ron is right. I can see it going down in my part of the economy. What already woulod have been just a financial kerfuffle with some paper profits getting erased and a few Goldman fvckers losing their vacation houses...has turned into a major industrial pause. The economy is doing a rational expection of the impacts of current/future actions. The bailout was a knife in the heart. Exact opposite of desired effect except for Bush who wanted to play out the hand (like with Iraq) and for his little Goldman weenies (who are all Demos anyhow).

[pavlik]

With no Republican support, the House approved an $819 billion stimulus plan that will serve as the cornerstone of President Obama's efforts to resuscitate the economy, an early victory for the new president but still a disappointment because of the lack of Republican votes.

The measure passed 244 to 188, with 11 Democrats and 177 Republicans voting against it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

Bravo, you brave, stupid bastards.

[Vomazoono]

Time to start calling your Senators. There's a small chance we can filibuster this POS in the Senate.

edit: Teh Putin is on our side.

Vladimir Putin. the Russian Prime Minister, launched a swingeing attack on Western financial rescue packages yesterday, calling for a new world order to reverse the financial crisis.

On his first visit to the World Economic Forum in Davos, Mr Putin called the crisis a “perfect storm” that had arisen from a world dominated by the US. He said that only a rebalancing of global power could cure the problem and that financial stimulus packages of the kind agreed by Washington and London could lead them down a path well-worn by Moscow while doing little to aid recovery.

“Interference of the State, the belief in the omnipotence of the State: that is a reaction to market failures,” Mr Putin said in his keynote address at the opening of the four-day meeting. “There is a temptation to expand direct interference of state in economy. In the Soviet Union that became an absolute. We paid a very dear price for that.”

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle5607474.ece

[onlyfun_biziness]

Hmm, Ron Paul, NGR and Putin are all opposed to the stimulus plan. That's a powerful argument for it in my book. Now, if only we could do a seance to get Neville Chamberlain's opinion...oh, and Ramo, NGR's articles have both been from the Washington Post, not WSJ. If anything, the WaPo leans to the left.

[aAaBecker]

Jeff Sachs,

Yeah, one of the architects of Shock Therapy in Russia. Worked great!

Greg Mankiw

chairman of W's Council of Economic advisors, who clearly gave the Bush administration brilliant advice...

and Robert Barro

A fellow at the Hoover Institute. How symbolic...

are all stimulus skeptics, as well. I feel fine being in that company. Yeah, just like you were in fine company with Rummy and Cheney back in 2003. Yup, you sure know how to pick arguments....

Yup, nothing better than a clear record of global ****ups to make one believe.

[Shemker394]

Anyone want to bet that GePap had to look up who Robert Barro was? I'll put down $20...

Sachs argues that there isn't much of a long term plan at work, and I would agree with that - why Congress should have ignored Larry Summers and added more long term cpaital spending on more infrastructure.

Did you even read the piece? His argument is that we don't have a clue how we're going to handle this mountain of debt over the medium-term.

[Reafnartefs]

What am I supposed to think when all GePap seems to know about one of the most respected and influential economists in the world is that he is a fellow at the Hoover Institution?

[AlexanderPalamayr]

Do you really think people are that stupid

Obviously. You're not giving me any reason to think otherwise.

[actifadepette]

Do you really think people are that stupid

Obviously. You're not giving me any reason to think otherwise. Oh, and it's cute that you thought this was clever.

[ELURNSERB]

Sorry, but I know that your heart belongs to another. :yawn: This is boring, though I'm not surprised your enjoy it. It's easy and self-gratifying.

[surefireinvest]

What am I supposed to think when all GePap seems to know about one of the most respected and influential economists in the world is that he is a fellow at the Hoover Institution?

Yeah, I had to look him up, because I have no reason to care about him, as I did not study the dismal science.

That I did not know who Barro was doesn't change your track record of being wrong when it comes to the big issues facing the country.