[legal-advicer]

The vocabulary is related to trad grip. It developed out of the traditional grip. Bill has very little of that vocabulary in his playing.

[legal-advicer]

There may not be a club like that anymore but in New York people do play every day. For hours. I had a session with Kurt Rosenwinkle that was almost 6 hours long. I would agree that people should play a lot more. Practicing is one thing, but you have to play with people. I wouldn't agree that players develop differently now. Practice and play every day.

[jojocomok]

You're taking my meaning wrong. I'm not saying you or anyone else aren't entitled to an opinion. I'm asking you to back it up.

I saw a cartoon once of a dog sitting at a computer. The caption said," On the internet, no one knows you're a dog."

What I'm objecting to is people stating authorative opinion on musical subjects without offering any credentials. Cam's bona fides are obvious and easy to research. So are mine. My academic credentials are on file at the institutions that granted me those degrees. My records are available in stores. You may or may not think they suck but that is an opinion you are free to develop because you know my name. I can go and register on this forum as Bozo X and start posting a lot of opinionated stuff and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if people didn't take me all that seriously.

Here's my not so humble opinion. Arguing on the internet without having the courage to put your name on your opinion is intellectually dishonest.

[bZEUWO4F]

Some good points as usual John. Cam did talk about his thoughts on the matter but I was hoping he would go into detail about what he saw as the effects of Jazz education on this generation of players. The question of technique is subjective at best. There are always people who think Miles didn't have great technique because he didn't always play as many notes as Freddie. Obviously Miles has a different kind of technique. Technique comes in many forms; I used to feel completely useless trying to transcribe Johnny Hodges but felt fine trying to transcribe Phil Woods. Different challenge.
Anyway, I've always wondered if the proliferation of scholastic jazz is really a good thing or not. I guess there is a "sameness" to the young players of today (myself included I’m sure) but at the same time everyone is truly unique and I have never heard two players who actual sounded the same. Not really. Perhaps the sameness is a reflection of a higher standard and common fundamental strengths and not a lack of an individual voice.
Even if you take 10 player and for four years send them to the same classes and give them the same homework and exercises there is no way that they are going to come back sounding the same. I know this because that’s exactly what happens in school. People are just too different. Jim McNeely once told me that there are critical times in ours lives as musicians that new information can be taken on a deep level. There are other times that we are not ready to understand that information. A group of people hear an idea or a piece of music and some of them are going to be deeply affected and some are not. At different stages of our lives we are able to assimilate and understand certain things better. I know from experience; many times a curtain lesson or idea didn't sink in until years later! I'm sure we've all felt that. Epiphany doesn’t always happen within a 50 minute lesson.
So I guess what I’m trying to say is that school is a great place to gather that information but it can take many years to incorporate that info into your playing. For me the best thing about school was not the accumulation of academic knowledge but the opportunity to play with a regular group at regular times. This is what is missing for a lot of people who are out of school and trying to get together and jam and even rehearse new material. School gives you structure and a place to play. That’s the biggest difference. The theory you can get from books. The music is out there on CD or live. You can get private lessons anytime. The connections you make and the chance to hang out with a lot of like-minded people was the best part for me. Still, I’d like to know if some people notice a big difference in the players who have been through school and those who have not.

[jojocomok]

Hi Terry. I remember you. Pat Gibbs was one of your students. I also remember a jam session at the old Blue Note on Broadway. I left the stand while you were soloing on a blues to give my girlfriend (now wife) a ride home, and when I got back you were still playing the same solo.

Can YOU find a good reed?

[mymnduccete]

Terry, when I saw Brian play with Wayne, he was matched all the way... about 90 percent, I'd say. Or maybe I'm on crack or haven't had enough coffee today. I thought Tain played Matched, or at least switched to get some of that ungodly ferocity of his... Ralph too. Jack switched to Matched after being injured or something, and I cannot hear the difference. My main point was it's a subtlety that deserves consideration, but in the end, you can't really tell. I should talk to Jesse more about it... we usually end up just talking about gear though!

[legal-advicer]

John, are you saying Lovano doesn't have an original sound? I would have to disagree. Even though I hate James Carter, you can hardly put him in the catagory of Coltrane disciple and he does have an original concept. ( doesn't make it right) The reason for practising for hours and hours is not to learn a lot of licks, it is to reach a level of proficiency that allows you to express yourself. You CANNOT express yourself on the highest level without a certain mastery of your instrument. How can you play what you hear if you can't physically play it.

[legal-advicer]

This is crazy. Everyone should relax. I don't understand Cam's comments on this topic. I'm not hiding behind an alias. Morgan knows who I am and I enjoyed our discussion on the topic. I'm not an expert on drum technique by any stretch of the imagination, but have always been interested in the topic. My Dad was an excellent pipe band drummer so that's where the interest comes from. I have played with all those musicians and I brought it up to correct Morgan's statement that those drummers played traditional grip. No big deal! Isn't somebody allowed to have an opinion? Terry Deane

[jojocomok]

Lovano was probably a bad example to use. And the cream at the top is always going to be pretty sweet, regardless of era. I'm just suggesting that there isn't the same motivation to be different now. If you were trying to get a job in the mach one Basie Band by sounding like Lester Young that wasn't gonna cut it. They already had one of him.

Surely you'll agree that players today develop in a totally different way than 50 years ago. I'm not saying it's better or worse, just different. We're never going to hear a band like say, the 1956 Miles Davis Quintet, because there isn't anyplace like the Cafe Bohemia that will pay a quintet to work there 6 nights a week for 18 months. Nobody in jazz performs that consistantly anymore, and if they do it's concert one nighters with travel everyday, which as I believe Joe Henderson once said, really interferes with your practising.


And jeez, where in that post did I accuse anybody of practising TOO MUCH.

"Who practised and had more technique than Trane?" I dunno. Sidney Bechet? My point there was it's always tempting to write off players who are not part of our own personal aesthetic. I don't play traditional New Orleans jazz, but studying these cats up close has led me to a huge appreciation of the things they did. And when you get in there with the headphones on in the Tulane Jazz Archives and listen to those oral histories, Monk Hazel or Abbey "Chinee" Foster speaking to you across time, you realize they are just like you. Being a jazz musician hasn't changed much, on a process level anyway, since the very beginning.

I'm doing a Ben Webster transcription right now and for a guy my age (I'm 50) who is basically a product of a post 'Trane world, his stuff is more out in some ways than Albert Ayler. Rhythmically it's hard to get off the CD and onto the page, and his harmony is strange to my modern ears. What's with all the sixth chords, Ben? But I'm having a ball with him, and it's very...nourishing, know what I mean?;-)

[Peapeuddedbaw]

When ever I go to London England I always try and book some lesson time with the great Stan Robinson. He's such an interesting player, understandable because he's such an interesting guy.

Last time both Ross and I booked time with Stan. I remember he said - 'listen, at any one point you you ought to have at least 4 different idea's to choose from. Avoid the 1st, go past the 2nd as well and go for the 3rd - or better yet - the 4th!'

The 1st thing that popped into my head (which I ought to have avoided) was to ask the stupid question 'what if I'm having trouble just finding one?' to which he replied 'practice more'

John if you'd just started transcribing at 39 consider yourself lucky! All that money you saved on manuscript and perfectly good lead.

You guys speak of Zoot, and I only just got my hands on a recording entitled 'Zoot plays 4 Alto's' which a b s o l u t e l y slays me.

Selmer has just started making the 'soloist' again and Chris Startup got one for alto and he sounds very beautiful on it - I think I'd like to pick one up.

Cam.

[mymnduccete]

I am utterly, stupidly on crack and completly wrong about Blade... you are entirely right.

[mymnduccete]

Yeah, I guess I shouldn't have used the word "impossible" or "never". I know there's a lot of talented mimics out there... I hope to be one myself one day, I think it's important to be able to do that. I know John Riley is supposed to be AMAZING with that stuff, and I know Clarence Penn can do it, because he layed some ridiculously hip Philly brush stuff on us in Banff last year.

[legal-advicer]

Were you saying Blade, Tain, RPJ, and Jack play trad or matched? Because I've played with all of them(except Jack) and know that they play traditional grip. Every drummer switches but maybe 90% trad. You should talk with Jesse about it. He knows a lot about the merits of both grips.

[mymnduccete]

Were it exculsivly a consideration of grip, I would switch tommorrow, but I'm not convinced that people can actually hear a difference. I can play all the comping figures that I play with matched and traditional, and I don't hear a difference. And I've lifted a hell of a lot of Jimmy Cobb's comping. Maybe when I finally get my lesson with Kenny Washington, he'll make me switch... but Clarence didn't even mention it, just said to go for sound. As far as the story with Jack, I can't remember what exactly happened... I think he broke a bone in his hand or something... something unrelated to music, and when he'd healed, found it more comfortable to play matched. He's certainly playing out of a different bag of tricks than Jimmy Cobb, but the rudimental technique is there... and impeccable. Brushes are the hardest to get a real good flow going on with matched, but I've found with a little practice I can approximate the sound that philly gets, and the grip really doesn't come into play. It's more about sound conception and really listening.

[Peapeuddedbaw]

Hi Guys - good points being raised - I do very much agree with V.O.R. in that command over the instrument has to be the ever elusive goal of any and all instrumentalist, inclusive of vocalists of course. I'll purposely stay away from drawing examples and comparisons as we have learned all too well that this serves to grey over any point being made and clearly that is an area of well considered individual tastes.
Generally speaking, I've encountered two kinds of students. The first being the type that has a relatively healthy amount of preconcieved improvisational idea's - who is also the type that learns methodically about how to put what they're hearing onto the horn and gets more proficiant at this over time and practice. This student feels as though they're fighting with many concepts of playing the horn though most of the time, so the challenge there is to try and eliminate the mystery and to get that student as at home with that instrument as possible as if it was as natural as using their voice to express idea's. Most of the time it comes down to editting and simplifying their approach. This is what I consider to be the ideal student to work with from a teachers perspective.

Then there's the other type, albeit a bit more rare, who learns things quite instantly but has little or no preconcieved idea's of their own. Often this student doesn't really listen in an open way to jazz, but approaches what they hear in analitical fashion, leaving one to wonder if they really enjoy it or not. This student generally has a formidible command over the instrument and can mimic quite handily, finding the art of transcription for instance, to be something they can do with relative ease - and the more they do of it the faster they get so they focus on that because basically it's instant gratification and they've tended to have gotten very good at it. They also tend to also do quite well in their other requirements too. They're able to play you back anything you present to them, yet when asked to create something of their own - they're at a loss to do so. This is the challenging student, for me anyways and I seem to be seeing more of them now.

Now please - remember I'm generalizing of course, there's lots of other kinds but these two examples make up most of what I see these days.

My fear - and I'm getting back into the topic of post secondary jazz education now, my fear is that we're seeing more of example #2.
I never was a believer in finding music in technical challenges, yet I think we have to be careful that some distinction gets addressed concerning this otherwise you will indeed start finding a lot of people coming out of Colleges and Universities sounding by and large the same. How do we get around this? I think exposure to differing points of view and perspectives is crucial.

I don't care what instrument a person plays, but if they're going on years with studying for example, with the same person, I don't see how you can end up with a well rounded perspective on how to play your instrument. When I was in College, I saved to take private lessons as well, with some of those guys in this city that I was incredibly nervous to even so much as phone.

In the end though, in retrospect - it was the best thing I ever did in those years, and I learned on top of everything else, how important it was to make that contact, and what life in music and the real respect of those important players, was all about.

Cam.

[huntbytnkbel]

Of course people are allowed to have an opinion, and as it happens Terry Deane's opinion is worth more than V.O.R. I guess that is what Campbell is getting at, although he did seem a little agitated, which might be because of sleep deprivation, or maybe he can't find a good reed either. Let's hoist a glass to opinions, and the audacity to voice them.

[mymnduccete]

V.O.R (I'm assuming this is Terry, but I'm not sure). I understand your point about execution. I've just always found that the more I play in front of people... whatever the musical situation, the more the nerves get conquered, and thus, execution is improved. But of course the technical building blocks of that execution are a stumbling point that needs to be addressed in the practice room.

As far as your point about grip goes, it's interesting. I've heard some people say the same thing. Other people say it doesn't matter, as long as you can get the sound. I fall somewhere in between. Myself, playing matched (but learning both as a kid-- I decided on matched when I was about 17... just made more sense at the time), I've definitly had to find ways to play certain things a bit differently, but I've never felt that their sound came exclusivly from their grip. They all switched back and forth, depending on the situation anyway, with very few exceptions (Philly, I believe, played almost exclusivly trad, and as I said before, his shit is nearly impossible to play). Some of them also studied timpani, which requires matched grip, and applied some of those techniques to the drums (I think Max Roach's mallet solo on "Delilah" is a good example of this... However I lifted both the trading AND the solo from this song, and found that to play one of his comping figures in one of the trades, I almost HAD to switch to trad! It was VERY akward to play using matched grip). I think what you're talking about is less related to grip as it is to the ruidimental vocabulary that Philly, Max et al. were definitly conversant in. These techniques are not exclusive to traditional grip though. Bill Stewart is one of many guys who I think play at a high level, have the vocabulary of jazz in their sound and play matched grip. Just off the top of my head, Tain, Ari Hoenig, Clarence Penn, Brian Blade, Ralph Peterson and Jack DeJohnette come to mind (Jack played most of his life trad, as did Tain and Clarence, but recently switched due to injury, I believe. Clarence told me that he just felt there was more he could do with matched grip, although he plays trad at the same level of facility. Ari is a guy who plays exclusivly matched, and really, really knows how to get the subtle differences of traditional grip out of that way of playing). One thing that's very hard to do with matched grip is play a stick shot in the middle of triplets... I'm still struggling with that one! But it's not impossible to get those sounds with the more versatile matched grip, it just takes a little extra consideration while working out some of these things. Dave Robbins pointed out to me that a lot of those guys played "right heavy", meaning their right strokes sound different from their left strokes. Small subtletys like this are hard to reproduce no matter what grip you're using. When I transcribe, I try to play the solo as closely as possible, but you're never going to get it to sound exactly like Roy Haynes or Max or whoever... they're way too distinctive. I guess it wouldn't hurt me to shed a little more trad grip though... something to think about anyway.

Do you play drums as well? I've heard Lovano is a great drummer... maybe Josh Redman too, though I can't remember.

[Opperioav]

I'm gonna move the analogy over to trombone players since I know them a little better. If you look at players 50+ years ao (Teagarden, Bennie Green, Sam Nanton etc) and players who started a while ago (Watrous, Fontana, Rosolino) etc.... they have a much more distinctive sound when compared to players today. Most East Cost players fall in the school of JJ (Steve Turree, Eubanks, Roseman etc) and the West Coast guys keep the Carl/Frank school going (Andy Martin, Bob McChesney etc) There are much fewer differences in basic tone production and technique. I think that sitting down and shedding just basic technique has made everyone sound much more the same then it did 50 years ago. Now you can still tell Lovano from Carter (or Wynton from Terance, or Steve Turree from Andy Martin......) but I think that those differences are much less, due on large part, by the attention to technique brought on my jazz schools. This isn't necessarily bad, it's just the way (I think) it is.

[mymnduccete]

I had a punk rock band that warmed up for "GOB" when I was 15, a funk/jam band with two girl singers when I was 17, recorded a CD of original music with a pop singer when I was 18, and have played in every single context I can imagine since then... it's all served the jazz side quite well. I love playing hip hop and funk... it's a different feeling and sound than jazz. I know on the other thread I gave the impression that I'm a purist who hates other types of music. The truth is, I'm a purist who LOVES other kinds of music, and loves to play them. I spending time on your axe in front of an audience is essential, and no matter what kind of music you're playing, it will serve your endurance, showmanship, and execution exponentially. Whenever I get called to do a good pop gig or theatre work, I have fun. I had a blast doing Tommy a couple years ago. I know you're just playing with me, but maybe you didn't know that i DO play other kinds of music, and consider anytime I get a chance to play music a GOOD time.

As far as the old masters go... I have never heard anybody be able to sound like Baby Dodds or Sid Cattlett... the recording, the gear, everything is different... it's impossible. The techniques they used are so homegrown and hard to decipher on the recordings they are on, that it's nearly impossible to evaluate just how much technique they had. Buddy Rich is another story... I still haven't heard anyone on the drums come close to what he can do. For me, that's the ultimate in technique because it's also very musical and swinging. But the drummers I really admire, the more I lift them and try to play like them the harder I realize it really is to even come close to posessing the "technique" that Max or Philly had. Art Blakey had infamously terrible technique, but IMHO, the greatest time feel and sound of all time... simply ferocious! And so terribly difficult to imitate. Philly is another one... he had mountains of facility on the drums... real rudimental and classical shit. Totally impossible to sound like him. The only people I've ever heard that come close are Kenny Wasthington, Lewis, Greg Hutchinson and Clarence Penn, who all played with Betty Carter (as did Philly) and learned how to deal with those tempos on brushes... a whole different type of "technique", and one that is impossible to learn without playing. Philly sounded like Philly because he was a tireless student of the drums who combined that with a real, "street" awareness and learning on the bandstand.

The drums are a different type of instrument. Guys who spend hours and hours practicing but dont' play that often... you can tell right away when you hear them play. They impose what they've been practicing on the music, and it doesn't always work. The best education for a drummer is to learn a few beats and then throw themselves in a situation where they're just having to play it.... whatever it is. You learn pretty quickly what works and what doesn't from the looks you get from the lead guitarist. And nobody can argue with a great groove, at least, you'll never get in trouble for just laying down great feeling and great sounding time.

[Peapeuddedbaw]

Hmm. I go out of town, come back and see how this interesting thread is doing, and now we're back to alias's and a shift into topics concerning dead skin streched over a hollow log - not that there's anything wrong with that but what the hell are you VOR, a drummer or a $#&@#$&! saxophone player? How can anyone on planet earth be such an expert on 2 opposing instruments - ADDRESS THYSELF so that a mere mortal like me can understand who knows so much and who plays with everyone in the world of jazz.

Am I alone people, or is this not completely infuriating?? Maybe I'm alone - wouldn't be the first time but I'll be god damned if I'm going to speak or read to points of view written by anymore letters or numbers. If there's a point to be made - why the hell not put your name on it!!