[SweetCaroline]

What made the difference? I wonder if its the fact that a bomb might be powerful enough to affect them personally, while a dying stranger on the street can be more easily ignored......

Yes. That's why women are told to scream "fire" instead of "rape". They're much more likely to get assistance this way.

[ballingham]

Yes. That's why women are told to scream "fire" instead of "rape". They're much more likely to get assistance this way.

Damn.

The Human race kinda sucks, sometimes.

[!!!maryann!!!]

Yes. That's why women are told to scream "fire" instead of "rape". They're much more likely to get assistance this way.

Well, if a fire spreads there is a chance it will affect me; it doesn't affect me if a woman is raped.

[zoolissentesy]

Well, if a fire spreads there is a chance it will affect me; it doesn't affect me if a woman is raped.

Yes... that's... what he meant.

[SweetCaroline]

Back to the story...

My impression from this is, given the latest developments is that what we have is a young man who couldn't go through with it. I am considering that the reason no effective timed-detonation device was found in the car is because there wasn't ever supposed to be one.

My guess is that in his time in Pakistan the suspect was taught how to be a suicide bomber, and that this was meant to be the original plan, and he simply couldn't go through with it, panicked, lit the car on fire and tried to run away.

I see his family (which was moved to Pakistan) as another confounding variable. I think it is possible, given his lack of determination in fulfilling his mission, and apparently readiness to speak with the authorities, that his family may have been held hostage.

Altogether, the good news is that this story ended about as well as it could possibly have ended - with no one hurt (not even the perpetrator) and no property damage (other than the car itself).

[Sleedyhex]

Back to the story...

My impression from this is, given the latest developments is that what we have is a young man who couldn't go through with it. I am considering that the reason no effective timed-detonation device was found in the car is because there wasn't ever supposed to be one.

My guess is that in his time in Pakistan the suspect was taught how to be a suicide bomber, and that this was meant to be the original plan, and he simply couldn't go through with it, panicked, lit the car on fire and tried to run away.

I see his family (which was moved to Pakistan) as another confounding variable. I think it is possible, given his lack of determination in fulfilling his mission, and apparently readiness to speak with the authorities, that his family may have been held hostage.

Altogether, the good news is that this story ended about as well as it could possibly have ended - with no one hurt (not even the perpetrator) and no property damage (other than the car itself).

What??? I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous speculation. If you look at the facts it's pretty clear what happened: They guy was a loser having difficulty in life, so his fanaticism (militant islam) gave him a way out and to "be somebody" (in this worlld and the next) he tried to make a homemade bomb and failed because the detonator device was poor. There are numerous examples in the past few years of people exactly like him trying and failing similar acts. (not to mention numerous that have succeeded)

all in all, it was just incompetence and luck that it didn't go off. In other posts, gnius, you make the mistake of assuming all terrorists like this are incompetent. Just because there have been failed attacks, doesn't mean they're all stooges. Wait untill a "competent fanatic" comes along and sets off a dirty bomb. Then you'll really see what gov. intrusion and big brother video monitoring is all about.

from the start, people have been interpreting this thing through very narrow and subjective lenses. you chose to see things from "an excuse from big brother" perspective. everyone is politicising it. The reality of the matter is pretty simple, and there is a storied history of similar incidents. The fact is, he's just another in a long line of fanatics that want to kill civilians for jihad. Like I said, when competent ones come along they can literally change the world. 20 were able to do so on 9/11. Trust me, yours, mine, and everyone's world will change if someone sets off a crude dirty bomb in Times Square or Washington D.C. and they render the Capital Mall or Times Square uninhabitable for hundreds of years. What kind of security do you think you'll have to endure then? (not to mention the probability of global war)

also, terrorism is not just about relative number of deaths compared to other things. ie: you're more likely to get hit by lightning. Yeah, plane travel is unbelievably safe, relatively speaking, but if you have a plane blow up, or a hijacking, like 9/11 or similar, there are global consequences that need to be considered. ie: having all air traffic stop for weeks at a time. So the argument that "terrorism is irrational fear because there is very little chance I could be killed" is extremely short-sighted and misleading. Like I said, 20 stooges changed the world on 9/11. In fact, they probably had more impact on world history than few others. (helped cause 2 wars, ect...) They're up there with Gavrilo Princip who set in motion World War I, by assasinating ArchDuke Ferdinand.

[SweetCaroline]

What??? I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous speculation. If you look at the facts it's pretty clear what happened: They guy was a loser having difficulty in life, so his fanaticism (militant islam) gave him a way out and to "be somebody" (in this worlld and the next) he tried to make a homemade bomb and failed because the detonator device was poor. There are numerous examples in the past few years of people exactly like him trying and failing similar acts. (not to mention numerous that have succeeded)

all in all, it was just incompetence and luck that it didn't go off. In other posts, gnius, you make the mistake of assuming all terrorists like this are incompetent. Just because there have been failed attacks, doesn't mean they're all stooges. Wait untill a "competent fanatic" comes along and sets off a dirty bomb. Then you'll really see what gov. intrusion and big brother video monitoring is all about.

from the start, people have been interpreting this thing through very narrow and subjective lenses. you chose to see things from "an excuse from big brother" perspective. everyone is politicising it. The reality of the matter is pretty simple, and there is a storied history of similar incidents. The fact is, he's just another in a long line of fanatics that want to kill civilians for jihad. Like I said, when competent ones come along they can literally change the world. 20 were able to do so on 9/11. Trust me, yours, mine, and everyone's world will change if someone sets off a crude dirty bomb in Times Square or Washington D.C. and they render the Capital Mall or Times Square uninhabitable for hundreds of years. What kind of security do you think you'll have to endure then? (not to mention the probability of global war)

also, terrorism is not just about relative number of deaths compared to other things. ie: you're more likely to get hit by lightning. Yeah, plane travel is unbelievably safe, relatively speaking, but if you have a plane blow up, or a hijacking, like 9/11 or similar, there are global consequences that need to be considered. ie: having all air traffic stop for weeks at a time. So the argument that "terrorism is irrational fear because there is very little chance I could be killed" is extremely short-sighted and misleading. Like I said, 20 stooges changed the world on 9/11. In fact, they probably had more impact on world history than few others. (helped cause 2 wars, ect...) They're up there with Gavrilo Princip who set in motion World War I, by assasinating ArchDuke Ferdinand.

So what you're saying is that people shouldn't think rationally, because thinking rationally is not rewarded because people don't think rationally.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And I'd like a listing of the "numerous who have succeeded" in the US please.

And no, I don't want to "wait until someone sets off a dirty bomb and causes an Orwellian nightmare". Listen to you, it almost sounds like you're looking forward to it!

[Sleedyhex]

So what you're saying is that people shouldn't think rationally, because thinking rationally is not rewarded because people don't think rationally. No (really strange comment)[rolleyes], I'm saying the argument that "there is very little chance of me being killed by terrorism" is shortsighted and misleading because there are so many geo-political consequences of a successful attack. Likewise, there is the distinct possibility of more devastating attacks like dirty bombs or biological/chemical devices.

And I'd like a listing of the "numerous who have succeeded" in the US please. that's really cheap, too. because I didn't specify just the US. I was referring to any number of successful terrorist acts worldwide in the last 10 years. ie: the London Bombings, Russian Subway bombings, Indonesia, ect..ect.. all of which were carried out by like minded jihadists, and this Times Square bomber is out of the same cloth. If you want to deal with just the US, I could cite 9/11 (which was fairly significant), Fort Hood massacre, DC sniper, and several close calls like Seattle millenium bombings, WTC 93, shoe bomber, and crotch bomber (both of which would have had far-reaching consequences had they pulled it off)

The main point was, it's not exactly a tough nut to crack. This guy from Pakistan was a jihadist who wished to kill hundreds in Times Square, but his detonator didn't work. It's not exactly difficult detective work; in contrast, your interpretation is politicised and motivated by opposition to big brother, so you downplay it and speculate it could be a conspiracy and now you're saying (with no real factual basis) the guy probably didn't wan't to go through with it and his family was held hostage and ect... WTF?

And no, I don't want to "wait until someone sets off a dirty bomb and causes an Orwellian nightmare". Listen to you, it almost sounds like you're looking forward to it! How dare you accuse me of that. What a pitiful ad hominem.[rolleyes] Actually, like you, I'm not a big fan of cameras everywhere or intrusions on liberites. I just don't let my opposition to them cloud my judgement. Like I said, it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to realize this clown was just another in a long line of like-minded jihadists, and absolutely he wished to kill people in Times Square.

[Fiesialenp]

And I'd like a listing of the "numerous who have succeeded" in the US please.

You mean other than 9/11 ?
o.k

1960s

• 1960: The Sunday Bomber sets off a series of bombs in New York City subways and ferries during Sundays and Holidays, killing one woman and injuring 51 other commuters.
• April 23, 1968 – April 30, 1968: During a student rebellion at New York's Columbia University members of the New Left organization Students for a Democratic Society and Student Afro-American Society held a dean hostage demanding an end to both military research on campus and construction of a gymnasium in nearby Harlem.
• 1969 August 7: Twenty were injured by radical leftist Sam Melville in a bombing of the Marine Midland Building in New York City.
• 1969 August 8: United States Department of Commerce Offices in New York City damaged by bombing
• 1969 September 18: The Federal Building in New York City is bombed by radical leftist Jane Alpert.
• 1969 October 7: Fifth floor of the Armed Forces Induction Center in New York City devastated by explosion attributed to radical leftist Jane Alpert.
• 1969 November 12: A bomb is detonated in the Manhattan Criminal Court building in New York City. Jane Alpert, Sam Melville, and 3 other militant radical leftists are arrested hours later.

1970s

• 1970 August 24: Sterling Hall bombing at the University of Wisconsin–Madison in protest of the Army Mathematics Research Center and the Vietnam War, killing one. Bombers Karleton Armstrong, Dwight Armstrong, David Fine, and Leo Burt claimed the death of physicist Robert Fassnacht was unintentional but acknowledged that they knew the building was occupied when they planted the bomb.
• 1970 November 21: Bombing of the City Hall of Portland, Oregon in an attempt to destroy the state's bronze Liberty Bell replica. The late night explosion destroyed the display foyer, blew out the building doors, damaged the council hall, and blew out windows more than a block away. The night janitor was injured in the blast. The crime remains unsolved, though a number of local anti-war and radical leftist groups of the era remain the primary suspects.
• 1970: Jewish Defense League linked with a bomb explosion outside of Aeroflot's New York City office in protest of treatment of Soviet Jews
• 1971: Jewish Defense League linked to a detonation outside of Soviet cultural offices in Washington and rifle fire into the Soviet mission to the United Nations
• 1971 March 1: The radical leftist group Weatherman explode a bomb in the United States Capitol to protest the U.S. invasion of Laos.
• 1973 June 1: Yosef Alon, the Israeli Air Force attache in Washington, D.C., was shot and killed outside his home in Chevy Chase, Maryland. Palestinian militant group Black September is suspected, though the case remains unsolved.
• 1974 June 13: The 29th floor of the Gulf Tower in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, was bombed with dynamite at 9:41 p.m. resulting in no injuries. The radical leftist group Weatherman took credit, but no suspects have ever been identified.
• 1974 Summer: "Alphabet Bomber" Muharem Kurbegovich bombs the Pan Am Terminal at Los Angeles International Airport killing three and injuring eight. He also fire bombed the houses of a judge and two police commissioners as well as one of the commissioner’s cars. He burned down two Marina Del Rey apartment buildings and threatened Los Angeles with a gas attack. His bomb diffused at the Greyhound Bus station was the most powerful the LAPD bomb squad had handled up until that time. His personal vendetta against a judge and the commissioners grew into demands for an end to immigration and naturalization laws, as well as any laws about sex.
• 1975 December 29: A bomb at New York's LaGuardia Airport kills 11 and injures 75. The bombing remains unsolved.
• 1976 September 11: Croatian terrorists hijack a TWA airliner diverting it to Gander, Newfoundland and Labrador, and then Paris demanding a manifesto be printed. One police officer was killed and three injured during an attempt to defuse a bomb that contained their communiques in a New York City train station locker. Zvonko Bušić who served 32 years in prison for the attack was released and returned to Croatia to a heroes welcome in July 2008.
• 1976 September 21: Orlando Letelier, a former member of the Chilean government, was killed by a car bomb in Washington, D.C. along with his assistant Ronni Moffitt. The killing was carried out by members of the Chilean DINA.

1980s

• 1980 June 3: Bombing of the Statue of Liberty. At 7:30 p.m., a time delayed explosive device detonated in the Statue of Liberty's Story Room. Detonated after business hours, the bomb did not injure anyone, but caused $18,000 in damage, destroying many of the exhibits. The room was sealed off and left unrepaired until the Statue of Liberty restoration project that began years later. FBI investigators believed the perpetrators were Croatian terrorists seeking independence for Croatia from Yugoslavia, though no arrests were made.
• 1980 July 22: Ali Akbar Tabatabai, an Iranian exile and critic of Ayatollah Khomeni, was shot in his Bethesda, Maryland home. Dawud Salahuddin, an American Muslim convert, was apparently paid by Iranians to kill Tabatabai.
• 1981 December 7: James W. von Brunn served 6 years in prison for attempting to kidnap members of the Federal Reserve at their headquarters in Washington, D.C. He testified his motive was to raise awareness of alleged "treacherous and unconstitutional" acts by the Federal Reserve.
• 1982 January 28: Kemal Arikan, the Turkish Consul-General in Los Angeles, is killed by members of the Justice Commandos Against Armenian Genocide.
• 1982 May 4: Turkish Honorary Consul Orhan Gunduz was assassinated in his car in Somerville, Massachusetts by the Justice Commandos Against Armenian Genocide.
• 1983 November 7: U.S. Senate bombing. The Armed Resistance Unit, a militant leftist group, bombs the United States Capitol in response to the U.S. invasion of Grenada.
• 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack: In what is believed to be the first incident of bioterrorism in the United States the Rajneeshee cult spreads salmonella in salad bars at 10 restaurants in The Dalles, Oregon, to influence a local election which backfired as suspicious residents came out in droves to prevent the election of Rajneeshee candidates.. Health officials say that 751 people were sickened and more than 40 hospitalized. All but one of the establishments attacked went out of business. Investigators believed that similar attacks had previously been carried out in Salem, Portland and other cities in Oregon.
• 1984 July 18: Alan Berg, Jewish lawyer-talk show host was shot and killed in the driveway of his home on Capitol Hill, Denver, Colorado, by members of a White Nationalist group called The Order. Berg had stridently argued with a member of the group on the show earlier who was convicted in his murder.
• 1985 October 11: Alex Odeh, a prominent Arab-American, was killed by a bomb in his office in Santa Ana, California. The case is unsolved, but it is thought the Jewish Defense League was responsible.
• 1985 December 11: computer rental store owner, Hugh Scrutton, is the first fatality of the Unabomber's neo-luddite campaign.
• 1989 March 1: 1989 firebombing of the Riverdale Press ‎ The Riverdale Press a weekly Newspaper in The Bronx, New York is firebombed one week after publishing an editorial in support of defending author Salman Rushdie right to publish The Satanic Verses which questioned the founding myth of Islam.

1990s

• 1990 Assassination of Meir Kahane by Egyptian in NYC
• 1993 January 25: CIA Shooting: Mir Aimal Kasi opened fire to cars waiting at the stop light in front of CIA Headquarters in Langley, VA killing two and injuring three others.
• 1993 February 26: First World Trade Center bombing killed six and injured 1,000. The attack was carried out by radical Islamist Ramzi Yousef, a member of Al Qaeda.
• 1994 December 10: Advertising executive, Thomas J. Mosser, is killed after opening a mail package from the Unabomber, being the second fatality of the mailbomb campaign.
• 1995 April 19: Oklahoma City bombing: A truck bomb shattered the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City, killing 168 people-including children playing in the building's day care center. Right-wing terrorists Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were convicted in the bombing.
• 1995 April 24: Timber industry lobbyist, Gilbert P. Murray, is the third and final fatal victim of the Unabomber's mailbomb campaign.
• 1996 July 27: Centennial Olympic Park bombing by Eric Robert Rudolph occurred in Atlanta, Georgia, during the Atlanta Olympics. One person was killed and 111 injured. In a statement released in 2005 Rudolph said the motive was to protest abortion and the "global socialist" Olympic Movement.
• 1997 February 24: 69-year-old Palestinian Ali Hassan Abu Kamal opens fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claims this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine". His widow claimed he became suicidal after losing $300,000 in a business venture. In a 2007 interview with the New York Daily News his daughter said her mother's story was a cover crafted by the Palestinian Authority and that her father wanted to punish the United States for its support of Israel.
• 1999 December 31 An arson fire causes one million dollars in damage and destroys the fourth floor of Michigan State University's Agriculture Hall. In 2008 four people that the government claimed were Earth Liberation Front members were indicted for that incident.

2000-present

• 2000 October 13, Firebombing of Temple Beth El (Syracuse)
• 2000: 2000 New York terror attack Three young men of Arab descent hurled crude Molotov cocktails at a synagogue in The Bronx, New York to "strike a blow in the Middle East conflict between Israel and Palestine".
• 2001 May 21 The Center for Urban Horticulture at the University of Washington burned. Replacement building cost $7,000,000. Earth Liberation Front members pleads guilty.
• 2001 September 11: September 11, 2001 attacks carried out by Al-Qaeda. The attacks were carried out by Islamic fundamentalists using hijacked commercial airplanes to damage the twin towers of the World Trade Center, ultimately destroying both 110-story skyscrapers. The Pentagon near Washington, D.C. is also severly damaged. Building 7 of the World Trade Center was also destroyed but was not hit with a plane. A fourth plane crashed prematurely in Pennsylvania.
• 2001 September 18: November - 2001 anthrax attacks. Letters tainted with anthrax kill five across the United States, with politicians and media officials as the apparent targets. On July 31, 2008 Bruce E. Ivins a top biodefense researcher committed suicide. On August 6, 2008 the FBI concluded that Ivins was solely responsible for the attacks and suggested that Ivins wanted to bolster support for a vaccine he helped create and that he targeted two lawmakers because they were Catholics who held pro choice views.
• May 2002 Mailbox Pipe Bomber: Lucas John Helder rigged pipe bombs in private mailboxes to explode when the boxes were opened. He injured 6 people in Nebraska, Colorado, Texas, Illinois, and Iowa. His motivation was to garner media attention so that he could spread a message denouncing government control over daily lives and the illegality of marijuana as well as promoting astral projection.
• 2002 July 4: 2002 Los Angeles Airport shooting Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, a 41-year-old Egyptian national, kills two Israelis and wounds four others at the El Al ticket counter at Los Angeles International Airport. The FBI concluded this was terrorism, although they found no evidence linking Hadayet to any terrorist group.
• October 2002 Beltway Sniper Attacks: During three weeks in October 2002 John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo killed 10 people and critically injured three others in Washington D.C, Baltimore, and Virginia. The pair were also suspected of earlier shootings in Maryland, Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, Louisiana and Washington state. No motivation was given at the trial but evidence presented showed an affinity to the cause of the Islamic jihad.
• 2006 March 5: Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar injured 6 when he drove an SUV into a group of pedestrians at UNC-Chapel Hill to "avenge the deaths or murders of Muslims around the world".
• 2006 July 28: Seattle Jewish Federation shooting, Pakistani-American shoots six women at Jewish Center killing one.
• 2007 October 26: A pair of improvised explosive devices were thrown at the Mexican Consulate in New York City. The fake grenades were filled with black powder and detonated by fuses causing very minor damage. Police were investigating the connection between this and a similar attack against the British Consulate in New York in 2005.
• 2008 February: In the first reported incident of animal-rights extremists physically assaulting the family members of animal researchers, six masked activists attempted to force their way into the home of a University of California, Santa Cruz, researcher and injured the researcher's husband.
• 2008 March 3: Four multimillion-dollar show homes place in Woodinville, Washington are torched. The Earth Liberation Front is suspected in the fires.
• 2008 May 4 Multiple nail laden pipe bombs exploded at a Federal Courthouse in San Diego at 1:40 AM causing "considerable damage" to the entrance and lobby and sending shrapnel two blocks away. The F.B.I. is investigating links between this attack and an April 25 explosion at the FedEx building also in San Diego.
• 2008 July 27 Jim D. Adkisson opened fire in the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee killing two and injuring seven before being tackled to the ground by congregation members. A note found in his SUV indicated this was intended as a suicide attack and said the church was apparently targeted because of its support of liberal social policies.
• 2008 August 2, August 3 University of California-Santa Cruz molecular biologist David Feldheim's home was firebombed. A car belonging to another researcher from that University was destroyed by a firebomb in what is presumed to be related. FBI is investigating incidents as domestic terrorism related to animal rights groups.
• 2009 April 8: According to a report in the Wall Street Journal intruders have left malware in power grids, water and sewage systems that could be activated at a later date. While the attacks which have occurred over a period of time seem to have originated in China and Russia it is unknown if they are state sponsored.
• 2009 May 31: Assassination of George Tiller. Dr. George Tiller, a doctor who provided late term abortions was shot to death in a Wichita, Kansas church. Tiller was shot previously in 1993 and his abortion clinic had been bombed in 1985. Alleged assassin Scott Roeder, who believes in justifiable homicide of abortion providers, has been arrested for the killing.
• 2009 May 25: Crude bomb explodes in a Starbucks in Manhattan's Upper East Side. On July 14 Kyle Shaw age 17 is arrested and pleaded not guilty. He is being held pending $300,000 bond or $100,000 cash bail. Police allege his motive was to emulate "Project Mayhem" a series of assaults on corporate America portrayed in the movie Fight Club.
• 2009 June 1: Arkansas recruiting office shooting One military recruiter was killed and another critically injured by gunshot at a Little Rock, Arkansas Army/Navy Career Center. The suspect Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad said he was upset over U.S. killing of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan.
• 2009 June 10: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum shooting. 88 year old James Wenneker von Brunn walked into the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington D.C. and shot a guard who later died. von Brunn was critically wounded when security guards immediately returned fire . On January 6, 2010 von Brunn died of natural causes at a hospital near where he was imprisoned. von Brunn was a self-described white supremacist and neo-Nazi.
• 2009 July 4: A denial of service attack of unusual length and sophistication affected United States and South Korean government websites as well as websites for the Washington Post and NASDAQ. Websites for several U.S. government agencies were shut down for up to 3 days. A sophisticated organization or nation was suspected according to the National Intelligence Service.
• 2010 February 18: Joseph Stack flew a small plane into an IRS building in Austin, Texas, believed to be in retaliation to the U.S. Government.

Wiki to the rescue,..

Enough ?

I found a ton more on various sights on attacks on US embassies all over the word.

[Fiesialenp]

[ballingham]

Well.... You pretty much made your point!! (Guess nobody had anything better to add) [yes]

(Including me!) [rofl]

[SweetCaroline]

Well.... You pretty much made your point!! (Guess nobody had anything better to add) [yes]

(Including me!) [rofl]

Or people had better things to do than argue. If anything, he supported my point about irrational risk assessment.

His "argument" was akin to listing the names of every murder victim in an argument for total surveillance. It's an appeal to emotion, and a strawman, utterly irrelevant to the point, and absolutely useless to argue against.

[Sleedyhex]

Or people had better things to do than argue. If anything, he supported my point about irrational risk assessment.

His "argument" was akin to listing the names of every murder victim in an argument for total surveillance. It's an appeal to emotion, and a strawman, utterly irrelevant to the point, and absolutely useless to argue against.

it wasn't an appeal to emotion. it was a DIRECT RESPONSE to your question: "And I'd like a listing of the "numerous who have succeeded" in the US please" (which itself was a disingenuous argument tactic, because I clearly was not referring only to the US)

golem directly responded to your question. also, if you want to talk about strawmen and irrelevant to the point argument tactics, see you're above response to my post.

anyways, objectivity??? you're the one who interpreted this entire attempt at terrorism through the narrow lens of being opposed to survellence (in just about the most coveted terrorist target on the planet no less....Times Square)[rolleyes] Like I said, if one doesn't have an axe to grind and a narrow lens to interpret, it's patently obvious and basic common sense: the guy was a jihadist who wanted to kill civilians. You're the one who went way out on a limb w/ridiculous speculation motivated by a distaste for survellience. You even went so far to say the guy didn't want to go through with it.[rofl]

[TeemFilla]

My thoughts on this and the whole terrorism thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9ObL...eature=related

I am completely for being proactive, I just think it's getting the best of us. I'm not gonna let it take over my life. At least the one I control.

[SweetCaroline]

You're the one who went way out on a limb w/ridiculous speculation motivated by a distaste for survellience. You even went so far to say the guy didn't want to go through with it.[rofl]

Umm... that speculation had absolutely nothing to do with surveillance. If you find something there about cameras, please show me... cause I certainly didn't write it.

I said he didn't want to go through with it because that was my impression, given the haphazard way this was done, and the panicked escape attempt during which he left behinds mounds of evidence. The guy didn't appear to be stupid. He was a well-educated financial analyst.

[Fiesialenp]

ffs Gnius,..

[rolleyes]

[Sleedyhex]

Umm... that speculation had absolutely nothing to do with surveillance. If you find something there about cameras, please show me... cause I certainly didn't write it.

I said he didn't want to go through with it because that was my impression, given the haphazard way this was done, and the panicked escape attempt during which he left behinds mounds of evidence. The guy didn't appear to be stupid. He was a well-educated financial analyst.

I was referring to your overall sentiment in this thread which I've already addressed. 1. illogically grouping all terrorists w/ incompetence 2. downplaying the threats and 3.the dozens of comments you've written on survellience in this thread.

you even stated your motivation here:

Of course I am downplaying it. What else can I do? I don't want to be afraid, and likewise don't feel like living in a total surveillance state for the sake of a marginal yield in security. That's exactly what I was referring to. It's pretty clear you are interpreting all of this through the lens of opposition to survellience. What myself and others are saying, is: what about when a competent terrorist comes along? I kind of agree with your about Big Brother, but I think you take it waay to far. For example:

Surveillance of public spaces by government is not about crime or terrorism prevention - any security expert knows it will do neither. It's about power - power of THEM over US.

In the highly technological world, total surveillance = absolute power comments like this, you take it way to far. I honestly don't believe most government officials that want survellence do so as an "Orwellian power grab" most do so with good intent. The thing about survellience and high tech like this, there needs to be a "Bill of Rights" enacted, to put some checks and balances in place. Also, you can "prove" almost anything with ideologically motivated studies and statistics, but it's just basic common sense, absolutely survellence deters crime. One need not look further than your local dept store..For example, It reduces shoplifting. There is no arguing that. Also, there have been plenty of studies in the UK and Europe where neighboorhood camera systems lower the crime rate.

[SweetCaroline]

but it's just basic common sense, absolutely survellence deters crime. One need not look further than your local dept store..For example, It reduces shoplifting. There is no arguing that. Also, there have been plenty of studies in the UK and Europe where neighboorhood camera systems lower the crime rate.

No, no it does not. That's the problem. Your "common sense" is getting in the way of facts.

Please show me how much crime dropped in the UK after the introduction of the CCTV everywhere, normalized to the overall trend of crime reduction.

The only time I've ever seen someone quote statistics supporting CCTV usage, they'd say "crime dropped 10% since we put up these cameras"... and everyone applauds.

Except it also dropped 10% where there weren't any cameras...

[Sleedyhex]

like I said, common sense.... [rolleyes] why would just about every single retail store (large and small) install survellence cameras if it didn't reduce crimes like shoplifting? Why would they spend thousands, millions of dollars on it if it doesn't work? I know......it must be some coordinated effort by the store owners and gov. to have power over the people

my common sense isn't getting in the way of anything. your passion with this issue, however, it's pretty clear it's getting in the way of reality. ie: first speculating that it might be an NYPD conspiracy, and when it was proven to be the work of a jihadist, you take the position that the jihadist didn't really want to kill anyone. uh.......ok,,,,,, then.

[TeemFilla]

like I said, common sense.... [rolleyes] why would just about every single retail store (large and small) install survellence cameras if it didn't reduce crimes like shoplifting? Why would they spend thousands, millions of dollars on it if it doesn't work? I know......it must be some coordinated effort by the store owners and gov. to have power over the people

Maybe it's a write off, looks good for insurance reasons, and better yet, they can spy on their employees?