[mobbemeatiedy]

Just after Nokia reported its first loss in a decade! They made a loss because they did not bother to keep up with the times, and production quality was really suffering on the high end phones. The last innovative phone from them was the N95, truly amazing for its time but quickly surpassed with the touch screen revolution.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8321058.stm

The ten alleged patent infringements involve wireless data, speech coding, security and encryption.
Apple's shares dipped after news of the action broke.
The breaches applied to all models of the iPhone since its launch in 2007, Nokia added.
'Basic principle'
Finland's Nokia said that it had agreements with about 40 firms - including most mobile phone handset makers - allowing them to use the firm's technology, but that Apple had not signed an agreement.

[Quvwcxqx]

go on Nokia me old son ! give them what for

[streMunford]

Normally I'm against this kind of thing.. but it's Apple.. so they kinda have it coming.

Go get em Nokia!

[gennickhif]

I'd really hate to be the staff at apple that was the result of this one. No steak tonight.

[artenotreah]

Nokia "made a loss" because they wrote down goodwill on their Nokia-Siemens Networks joint venture and took a big tax hit on top of it as a consequence of the write down. It was a one-time event and it didn't actually have anything to do with the design and sale of mobile phones. And it was a non-cash charge... They actually increased their bankroll. In fact, they shipped 1.8M N97's, in spite of the fact that the N97 was designed with crippling deficiencies, 3.7M 5800s and 16.1M smart phones in total... And the N900, X6 and E72 are coming up this Q. Plus they still sell their usual rigamarole of those cheap little phones that more than a third of the world uses.

The fact that 40 other companies licence this technology in order to be able to sell their products but that Apple was unwilling to come to terms to do so is pretty damning. I suspect they will fight it out for a while and settle, and that Apple will pay for the licences on top of that.

[PhillipHer]

and that Apple will pay for the licences on top of that. If Nokia are still willing to sell them the licenses.

Let's face it, if the case is won by Nokia, they (and 40 other related companies) have Apple and the iPhone by the short and curlys.

[JTS_tv]

Nokia "made a loss" because they wrote down goodwill on their Nokia-Siemens Networks joint venture and took a big tax hit on top of it as a consequence of the write down. It was a one-time event and it didn't actually have anything to do with the design and sale of mobile phones. And it was a non-cash charge... They actually increased their bankroll. In fact, they shipped 1.8M N97's, in spite of the fact that the N97 was designed with crippling deficiencies, 3.7M 5800s and 16.1M smart phones in total... And the N900, X6 and E72 are coming up this Q. Plus they still sell their usual rigamarole of those cheap little phones that more than a third of the world uses.

Apple sold 7.4 million iPhones in Q3, considering they did not need a multitude of models to achieve that it does indicated that at the very least in that market Nokia has problem

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...612633824.html

[Smabeabumjess]

Apple sold 7.4 million iPhones in Q3, considering they did not need a multitude of models to achieve that it does indicated that at the very least in that market Nokia has problem

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...612633824.html

A better comparison would be Nokia high-end smartphone sales to iPhone sales.

I had a Nokia E71 for a few weeks, it kept crashing and locking up and the build quality was pretty poor compared to the iPhone. you could slide the keyboard up and down slightly!

[r5YOPDyk]

I have E71 for 1 year now and I couldn't be more happy. No crashes and build quality is top notch.

I use Exchange server to get my office email and I have installed a Garmin with all the Europe and Adria Route and it's very accurate. I'm not replacing this phone for a looong time.

[downtowndude]

Hmmm... Apple shares are still due to close on an all-time-high. Apple's Market Cap is catching up with MSFT

[artenotreah]

Apple sold 7.4 million iPhones in Q3, considering they did not need a multitude of models to achieve that it does indicated that at the very least in that market Nokia has problem

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...612633824.html

I made no comparison to Apple. In fact, I did not even reference any of Apple's business or operating results. I only specified that Nokia's loss was an accounting loss, that they continue to sell phones very profitably and that they are making money. The objective of my post was to counter the incorrect sentiment that they are losing money and lashing out at Apple to recoup their losses. Risco's impression is not correct and this is very unlikely to be a case of patent trolling as evidenced by the fact that everyone else pays for the licences.

Assuming that Nokia's claims are legitimate, then Nokia and Apple will settle at terms favorable to Nokia. Nokia will not act in bad faith to preclude Apple from selling the iPhone. In fact, I'm certain it would be illegal for them to do so.

As for the iPhone, it's an exceptional competitor and Apple is raking in money hand over fist. I've never seen a device with uptake this fast. This is a big problem for Nokia, but it has nothing to do with this quarter's results.

[mobbemeatiedy]

I made no comparison to Apple. In fact, I did not even reference any of Apple's business or operating results. I only specified that Nokia's loss was an accounting loss, that they continue to sell phones very profitably and that they are making money. The objective of my post was to counter the incorrect sentiment that they are losing money and lashing out at Apple to recoup their losses. Risco's impression is not correct and this is very unlikely to be a case of patent trolling as evidenced by the fact that everyone else pays for the licences.

Assuming that Nokia's claims are legitimate, then Nokia and Apple will settle at terms favorable to Nokia. Nokia will not act in bad faith to preclude Apple from selling the iPhone. In fact, I'm certain it would be illegal for them to do so.

As for the iPhone, it's an exceptional competitor and Apple is raking in money hand over fist. I've never seen a device with uptake this fast. This is a big problem for Nokia, but it has nothing to do with this quarter's results.

I accept that maybe I was over zealous with my reaction to the news. I know you check you are pretty "in the know" with regards stocks and shares. Nonetheless, it is without doubt Nokia have lost the high end market and it must have a financial impact.

I have been a very avid Nokia user over the years. However they cannot keep on relying on the budget market. If they do, then I can see that is all they will be selling in 10 years. Maemo imo is Nokia's last throw of the dice, if they cannot get it right then they will have to kiss goodbye to the high end.

I am of the opinion that it has taken two years for Nokia to gather the evidence since the iPhone launch. Suing Apple is not new by any means, but when the worlds largest phone provider accuses you of infringement then it has to have some substance.

Also are you suggesting that after the "pay-off" Apple will be required to pay royalties to Nokia in the future?

[artenotreah]

Nonetheless, it is without doubt Nokia have lost the high end market and it must have a financial impact.

Agree. However one quarter is also not a fair basis for judgement. With many highly anticipated phones forthcoming, it's reasonable to expect that Nokia would sell fewer phones this Q as people may be waiting. I'm not buying an E71 if the E72 is coming out in a month... So they sold half a million fewer phones this Q than last Q. That said, their ASP for smartphones went up from 182 Euro to 190 Euro this quarter, which is to say that they are making more money per smartphone sold.

I have been a very avid Nokia user over the years. However they cannot keep on relying on the budget market. If they do, then I can see that is all they will be selling in 10 years. Maemo imo is Nokia's last throw of the dice, if they cannot get it right then they will have to kiss goodbye to the high end.

Well, the budget market is pretty interesting because there are few companies who can compete with Nokia there and make money. It's a good business. Nokia is also one of the few companies that can make smartphones on the cheap and sell them at a profit - the middle tier today. All phones will be smartphones in 5 years, maybe. Apple will probably not be selling iPhones for $75 in India or whatnot (And I don't mean after subsidies... I mean outright selling.) because they can't make money there but Nokia can.

As for Maemo, I am expecting big things too. It's very important for Nokia to get Maemo right on the first try. The N900 looks pretty damned nice, IMO, and there's supposed to be an N920 with no keyboard shortly thereafter.

Also are you suggesting that after the "pay-off" Apple will be required to pay royalties to Nokia in the future?

Don't know, but I do expect that there would be some contract of some duration for the technology in addition to damages for phones already sold plus maybe punitive damages. A patent lawyer would be able to speculate but I can only guess.

[mobbemeatiedy]

Agree. However one quarter is also not a fair basis for judgement. With many highly anticipated phones forthcoming, it's reasonable to expect that Nokia would sell fewer phones this Q as people may be waiting. I'm not buying an E71 if the E72 is coming out in a month... So they sold half a million fewer phones this Q than last Q. That said, their ASP for smartphones went up from 182 Euro to 190 Euro this quarter, which is to say that they are making more money per smartphone sold.



Well, the budget market is pretty interesting because there are few companies who can compete with Nokia there and make money. It's a good business. Nokia is also one of the few companies that can make smartphones on the cheap and sell them at a profit - the middle tier today. All phones will be smartphones in 5 years, maybe. Apple will probably not be selling iPhones for $75 in India or whatnot (And I don't mean after subsidies... I mean outright selling.) because they can't make money there but Nokia can.

As for Maemo, I am expecting big things too. It's very important for Nokia to get Maemo right on the first try. The N900 looks pretty damned nice, IMO, and there's supposed to be an N920 with no keyboard shortly thereafter.



Don't know, but I do expect that there would be some contract of some duration for the technology in addition to damages for phones already sold plus maybe punitive damages. A patent lawyer would be able to speculate but I can only guess.

Thanks very much for the informative post! Out of interest, I am thinking about investing in shares at some point. Would Nokia be a good first investment as their shares will be lower, but could increase dramatically if Maemo really kicks off?

[Misespimb]

Nokia isnt the only one with war drums beating, watch and see...

[Smabeabumjess]

I have E71 for 1 year now and I couldn't be more happy. No crashes and build quality is top notch.

I use Exchange server to get my office email and I have installed a Garmin with all the Europe and Adria Route and it's very accurate. I'm not replacing this phone for a looong time.

When it worked it was great, in a couple of ways I preferred it to the iPhone. Not many though. I had three of them in the few weeks I had one. Probably a faulty batch.

I found the exchange email support useless though - I only tried the mail for exchange that came with it but it would only sync my inbox. No sub-folders or sent items. So pretty useless really if you have rules set up to redirect email to different folders.

[artenotreah]

Thanks very much for the informative post! Out of interest, I am thinking about investing in shares at some point. Would Nokia be a good first investment as their shares will be lower, but could increase dramatically if Maemo really kicks off?

That is something I cannot really help you with. I own Nokia and I happen to think it's a compelling investment but I cannot recommend it to anyone without any knowledge of their goals, experience, risk tolerance, etc. It is not likely appropriate for a beginner.

[gdjfhdf]

...I own Nokia.....

You own Nokia? Any chance of a free N97? [rofl]

On topic -

If the rest of the mobile industry are paying Nokia for the patents and technologies they helped develop with mobile communications then Apple should pay.

[JTS_tv]

Thanks very much for the informative post! Out of interest, I am thinking about investing in shares at some point. Would Nokia be a good first investment as their shares will be lower, but could increase dramatically if Maemo really kicks off?

If you are following the mobile phone market closely, you have a lead time to the average investor.

So if Nokia releases a really good Smartphone, I would think about buying but not before (the X6 still is their only higher end phone that is worth anything).