[pipitous]

No they won't give you any more power and the only thing you'll notice is that it could sound slightly louder as it lets more air through - if you were going to sort out your induction then it'd be better to buy a fully enclosed system with cold air feeds

I just heard that from a Civic response that throttle control is a bit more responsive with a K&N filter.

[anaisdannyxys]

you know what, even tho a sri sucks in "hot air" theres dyno test showing the difference between the 2 for hp and theres basicaly no difference

[n2Oddw8P]

ummmm am i the ONLY person who read this as "My next oil change and OIL FILTER"

Becuase knowing polo, maybe he doesnt know that there is an oil filter and an air filter? everyone seems to think becuase he said k+n filter that he knew what he was talking about?

Well I think that I am not the only one who noticed that he DIDNT say oil filter, just "filter" and the title of the thread says "k&n air filter, r they good?"

you know what, even tho a sri sucks in "hot air" theres dyno test showing the difference between the 2 for hp and theres basicaly no difference

Could be right to some degree, but then it would also depend on the car. I have a dyno chart of a modified Z car. The 2.4L bored and stroked out to 2.8L with a few other gizzmos. A dyno with and without the air filter.
In the biginning, without the air filter seems to only be giving an extra 1hp, but once it gets to the top of the power band, with and without the air filter are pushing the same hp. Though at redline, without the air filter, the vehicle is pushing 8hp more.

Seems to also be only 1ft.lb of torque increase on the no filter test through out the RPM range.
The car pushes 220hp and 210ft.lb so it is a fairly powerful engine.

I personally think that if it had a turbo, things would really change in favor for the no air filter.

[12Cickprior]

Well I think that I am not the only one who noticed that he DIDNT say oil filter, just "filter" and the title of the thread says "k&n air filter, r they good?"

Or maybe we're all dumbasses and he meant a k&n oil filter? [rofl]

http://www.knfilters.com/oilfilter.htm

[Preorbtat]

This topic has been addressed many times in a car forum i frequent.

Both answers are right. With a standard drop in filter, no you won't see much of a difference if any because you are still getting the same warm underhood air and using the same intake piping.

As for increasing fuel economy, yes, some filter systems do indeed do it. It's not the fact that the MAFS (mass air fuel sensor) is reading how much air is incoming, but how much it is reading. A MAFS does not read 100% of the incoming air, just a small portion that gives a general idea of how much is incoming. air does not flow uniformly when traveling through the intake, more like a fluid.

because of this, the MAFS usually won't read the correct amount of air. if it reads more then it should in comparison with the whole amount of air incoming it will add more fuel to compensate which causes a rich burn.

But, the best fuel to air mix is toward the slightly lean side. Almost all car manufacturers won't set up the ECU to run the engine this way to make the engine for a bunch of reasons. one being that with a lean fuel mix, you run the risk of more premature ignition and spark knock. So the ECU's are usually set up to run far away from this fuel:air level.

Going back to the MAFS, if it reads less then it should in comparison with the whole air going through the intake, then the ecu will think there is less air going in then what is really going in. thus supplying less fuel and running the engine more toward the lean side. this will give you a slight bit more power using less fuel then normal.

But if your car does start running to far lean, most cars will give you a check engine light because the O2 sensors on your Cat will notice to much O2 in your exhaust.

[Fegasderty]

which is confusing considering I watch my MPG very closely and when I installed a K&N on my last car my MPG rose about 3mpg over the course of 2 full tanks. This was calculated form a full tank to when the low fuel light comes on (comes on at 2gallons left every time). Driving the same distance to and from work every day at a constant speed (95% of my commute is highway). So I dunno, everyone has to make up their own mind I guess but for me the K&N did help with fuel efficiency over a clean paper filter.

you SHOULD see a small increase in fuel economy, all else being equal, as the engine uses less power drawing air through the filter. Depending on the engine management, the Lambda may only affect low speed running and at higher speeds there may also be an improvement from slight leaning out.

[Preorbtat]

oops, ignore this post.

[fedelwet]

ummmm am i the ONLY person who read this as "My next oil change and OIL FILTER"

Becuase knowing polo, maybe he doesnt know that there is an oil filter and an air filter? everyone seems to think becuase he said k+n filter that he knew what he was talking about?

Because knowing Bluffalo, maybe he should stay out of my threads and not worry about waht I meant? everyone seems to think Bluffalo is always right but infact hes wrong and doesn't know what hes talking about.

[fedelwet]

This topic has been addressed many times in a car forum i frequent.

Both answers are right. With a standard drop in filter, no you won't see much of a difference if any because you are still getting the same warm underhood air and using the same intake piping.

As for increasing fuel economy, yes, some filter systems do indeed do it. It's not the fact that the MAFS (mass air fuel sensor) is reading how much air is incoming, but how much it is reading. A MAFS does not read 100% of the incoming air, just a small portion that gives a general idea of how much is incoming. air does not flow uniformly when traveling through the intake, more like a fluid.

because of this, the MAFS usually won't read the correct amount of air. if it reads more then it should in comparison with the whole amount of air incoming it will add more fuel to compensate which causes a rich burn.

But, the best fuel to air mix is toward the slightly lean side. Almost all car manufacturers won't set up the ECU to run the engine this way to make the engine for a bunch of reasons. one being that with a lean fuel mix, you run the risk of more premature ignition and spark knock. So the ECU's are usually set up to run far away from this fuel:air level.

Going back to the MAFS, if it reads less then it should in comparison with the whole air going through the intake, then the ecu will think there is less air going in then what is really going in. thus supplying less fuel and running the engine more toward the lean side. this will give you a slight bit more power using less fuel then normal.

But if your car does start running to far lean, most cars will give you a check engine light because the O2 sensors on your Cat will notice to much O2 in your exhaust.

What forum is this?

[giturbewan]

heres a great idear.

its slightly mpg benificial if you drive the car sensibly

it uses more fuel if you boot the car because you love the sound of the carburettor piston plunging and the throaty noise it makes.

simple really.

as with cars with ecu's they tend to advance the timing so that they run on the leaner side of things. producing hotter running and less fuel being used but thats at a minimal and normally with in engine mapping spec.

[cymnPrayerm]

you know what, even tho a sri sucks in "hot air" theres dyno test showing the difference between the 2 for hp and theres basicaly no difference

You mean between SRI and CAI? I'd say there is a difference, esp. in the summer time. CAI's usually show to have a wider broad power difference vs SRI's which are really only good in the upper rpm range.

That being said, it also depends on the car. I know with my Cougar, SRI's don't fair well at all in our cars, they get bad heatsoak, esp. in the summer...and bog bad from the start. CAI (at least the custom one that is very liked by a guy named GMK) offers a dyno proven 5hp increase over SRI's, and does so over a wider range, and at much cooler air temps.

[anaisdannyxys]

maybe but I still dont feel like wrecking my engine with water, also in my car the stock tubing was leading into the fender and my filter is right next to the "air holes" leftover so im sure it helps suck colder air in from outside

[P9CCd35R]

I wouldn't put anything else but stock parts on a old engine that has ran many miles.

K&N is a good quality brand, performance and economy are debatable and I believe performance parts are functioning better when more parts of the engine are being tuned.

Why waste money on a expensive airfilter for economy? The money you pay for it is probably equalling the amount of money that you might save out on fuel.

It's just a meaningless gadget.

[Preorbtat]

What forum is this?

www.newcelica.org excellent site for celicas and get into the nitty gritty of performance modifications. a lot of what is discussed can apply to virtually any car though.

as with cars with ecu's they tend to advance the timing so that they run on the leaner side of things. producing hotter running and less fuel being used but thats at a minimal and normally with in engine mapping spec.

Timing does not have much to do with the fuel mixture. Timing controls the valves and when the detonation occurs past TDC (depending on car and application).

The fuel mixture (lean or rich) is determined by the ECU through the MAFS, the O2 sensors and throttle positioning.

And burning hotter is a BAD thing. it causes premature detonation which can destroy an engine and causes other problems in the long run. Running to lean causes other problems as well, like bogging on acceleration and such.

I wouldn't put anything else but stock parts on a old engine that has ran many miles.

K&N is a good quality brand, performance and economy are debatable and I believe performance parts are functioning better when more parts of the engine are being tuned.

Why waste money on a expensive airfilter for economy? The money you pay for it is probably equalling the amount of money that you might save out on fuel.

It's just a meaningless gadget.

Most people don't buy these things for economy but for performance. To a person who wants the most out of his engine will spend a few extra dollars to get the parts that let him do it. It's not meaningless, it's car enthusiasm.

I do agree tho, most parts out there don't do what they say. Take the Tornado for example. a $60 item at one time and most people who actually bought them said they got worse mileage and dyno's showed a loss in performance. Another is that fuel magnet thing. does absolutely nothing.

[P9CCd35R]

A person that wants most out of his engine should at least chiptune it , a airfilter is just a bunch of bollux.

Wait, it is affordable and people seek excuses to jusitfy their purchase rather than spending more money on it and do improve their engines performance.

[12Cickprior]

A person that wants most out of his engine should at least chiptune it , a airfilter is just a bunch of bollux.

Wait, it is affordable and people seek excuses to jusitfy their purchase rather than spending more money on it and do improve their engines performance.

You'll likely get more HP/$ for the air filter then a reflash.
The flash for my car I got for $665 and gave me ~ 40 HP. That's about $16 / HP.
Say you buy a filter for $20 and it gives you 2 HP. Now, that's certainly not enough power to make any difference at all, but that was only $10 / HP.

It it worth it? Sure, why not?

Of course, that's not quite fair. For $665 I purchase a physical product, the AccessPort, which I can re-use in the future for additional flashes. For example, when I purchase / install a new downpipe I can (for free) flash to stage 2, gaining me another 20 or so HP, and reducing the overall $ / HP cost.

[Preorbtat]

Chip tuning isn't the best answer. Most of those "chip tunes" are BS. For a good tuning, you have to get a programmable piggyback unit like Greddy e-manage or a standalone like a PowerFC. These chips range from $300-400 minimum all the way up to the $1000's of dollars, then you have to get the dyno time to get it all tuned right according to your engine setup, there's another couple hundred dollars.

Those chip flashings are usually one time deals. I'm talking about the ones where you send in your ECU and it comes back with new maps. And they are set with predefined maps. True tuning you have to make the maps that work the best for your car.

Now "the_travis_s" did the right thing by getting a programmable ECU. But I bet he could get more out of it with a good dyno tuning.

So far with a proper chip tuning you are looking at a LOT of money. how is that better then maybe spending $100-$200 on a good air intake? AEM makes a CAI for my car that's about $200. Dyno's have proven the gains.

Now someone who really wants to get the most out of their engine will probably do both among other modification like exhaust, headers, maybe some new piston and connecting rods. possibly get some cams.

All of these can get expensive. to a car enthusiast, it's all justified because each and every one of those mods all add up to more HP.

[12Cickprior]

Now "the_travis_s" did the right thing by getting a programmable ECU. But I bet he could get more out of it with a good dyno tuning.

I know this is going way off track, but what I have is essentially a dyno tuned flash.
It's what TDC calls a "ProTune", and is based on their own work and dyno tuning. Now, because I'm 100% stock right now, the flash is essentially an "off the shelf" flash, meaning it applies to all 100% stock Legacy GTs. BUT, it is a dyno tuned flash.


What makes really makes a ProTune what it is, is the customization to the car. When you order a ProTune you tell TDC exactly what mods you have made to your car, and they will make a custom flash specifically for your setup. This is not cheap ($150), but is totally worth it. It's not exactly the same as a dyno tune (which they do offer), but it's pretty dang close. It's also much cheaper.
In my example, the free stage 2 flash, that would be going with the base maps that come on the AccessPort. Now, these are good maps, but they're very generalized. As such, they're not going to be ideal for every setup.

What I'm getting at is, I agree with you. But my flash is pretty much a dyno tune (and YES, it gets more from the car then the base stage 1 AP flash. More power/torque throughout the entire RPM range and about 30 more lb/ft peak. [thumbup])

[fedelwet]

since i have a magnaflow exhaust will I notice a sound difference from a stock air filter?

[12Cickprior]

since i have a magnaflow exhaust will I notice a sound difference from a stock air filter?

The exhaust doesn't really affect it, other then it may drown out any increases sounds that may be there.
Paper filters really hide intakes noises quite well. Gauze and foam filters not so much. On a n/a car though, the noise changes will most likely be minimal at best.