[GrolmangHat27]

Bless Fathers, and greetings to my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

I wanted to ask a question on a sensitive topic, to garnish some opinions from different people. Regarding Islam, I myself feel justified in calling Islam, "evil". The problem faced with saying this, in our politically correct society is getting labeled a racist, bigot, Judeo-Christian supremacist etc. If the topic of "Is Islam evil?" brought up, or inadvertently mentioned that is your opinion, the first things heard are: Bigot!", "Racist!" "Zionist!", "How can you call all Muslims evil?", "Have you ever met a Muslim?", "Don't you think Muslims have are humans, too?" etc, etc, etc. Then often times the ranter will go on a rampage how Christians killed in the Crusades, etc, etc, etc. Although of course those Crusades were technically at first supposed to be aid for the Byzantine Empire, and later become the quest to get the Holy Lands....back...from the Muslims.

Anyhow, people lose sight of the issue being a religious matter rather than a demographic issue. Most sane people won't sit around saying all Muslims are evil, whilst it is true some are evil people: see Al-Qaeda for evidence in that field.

Being one of the few people that have actually read the Qur'an, suplementing that reading with that wonderful book, "The Sword Of The Prophet", I feel that what I read between those covers was evil in nature. The content of the religion, coupled with the bloody history and expansion of it thereby, make it seem like evil to me.

Modern day apologists for Islam have called it, “The Religion of Peace and Tolerance.” This however, to any savant of religion is an antithetical fact owing the words of the Qur’an. The Qur’an says that a Muslim should be merciless to the unbelievers, but kind to each other (Sura 48:29). The Qur'an also states that Muslims must slay the unbelievers wherever they are found (Sura 2:191). It explicitly states that the retribution of those who fight against Allah and His Messenger are: crucifixion, slaughter or the amputation of their limbs (Sura 5:33). The infidels are also to be “fettered in bonds and roasted in hell.” (Sura 69:30-37). True Muslims are not supposed to rest until this lifestyle, this Islam, reigns everywhere (Sura 2:193).


To say radical Muslims (i.e. terrorists) are not representative of the whole religion is irresponsible and naive, in my opinion and reading. In fact, these radicals seem to be representative of true Islam and what it truly stands for. All other Muslims are really moderates, and not truly adherent to their faith. Muslims, as a people, and individually are not the ones to be judged. It is the Islamic religion and all that it symbolizes: death, hate, destruction, religious bigotry and the intolerance of all other people (even intolerance of its own women. St. John of Damascus (an Arab himself), suitably called them “Mutilators of God,” and called their teachings, “ridiculous, nonsense and stupid.”

( Fount Of Knowledge: Part 2: “Concerning Heresies” http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx )


I would like to hear what others feel on this and what other patristic sources people have regarding Islam being "evil".

Additionally, on another sensitive topic, does anyone feel that the building of the "Cordoba House" is insulting to Americans, the people who died, and the Orthodox community who haven't been able to rebuild nine years later?

Thanks all, Yours in Christ.

[ThzinChang]

I would suggest reading Cross and Crescent by Colin Chapman. He is not an Orthodox author, but I think he does well in showing that it is a complicated question. Islam is a HUGE religion with moderate and radical branches. Sometimes I also struggle with this question because of what the radical element has done. plu I have a relative who was married to a soldier who was mortally wounded in Iraq.

--Ben

[VIDEOHITE]

In the UK we have a program on TV called 'The Big Questions' on a Sunday. It is basically a panel of 'religious' types and columnists etc. They sit before a mixed audience and debate topical religious issues. It never ceased to amaze me that despite our disparity with the muslims theologically, it is always the muslims who present 'orthodox' (with a small C) morality, modesty in dress, sexuality, marriage etc. Whist, on the other hand, non-orthodox clerics and laypeople present the most bizarre views and liberal attitudes which makes one shout at the telly...literally!

[beenBinybelia]

One thing to pray for is that Islam get as tame and watered down as much of Christianity has become. I am sure this is the fervent hope of the "tolerant" secularists. This has happened in places to some extent. There are many Moslems who do not know their own faith, who are simply trying to just "get along" and are just as secularist as the rest. This is the "approved" Islam, but it really isn't "Islam". What I think people don't quite realize, is that the militants actually have gotten it "right". They do, actually, represent the real, true, unadulterated, pure Islam as formulated by Muhammed, not the watered-down, totally allegorical, compartmentalized "belief system" that the modern world wants them to become (and us too, for that matter).

Herman the unadulterated Pooh

[lizadax]

One thing to pray for is that Islam get as tame and watered down as much of Christianity has become. I am sure this is the fervent hope of the "tolerant" secularists. This has happened in places to some extent. There are many Moslems who do not know their own faith, who are simply trying to just "get along" and are just as secularist as the rest. This is the "approved" Islam, but it really isn't "Islam". What I think people don't quite realize, is that the militants actually have gotten it "right". They do, actually, represent the real, true, unadulterated, pure Islam as formulated by Muhammed, not the watered-down, totally allegorical, compartmentalized "belief system" that the modern world wants them to become (and us too, for that matter).

Herman the unadulterated Pooh

Herman, that's exactly what I feel about Islam, it seems that whilst the people are innocent, they can all be nice people, they aren't truly practicing Islam as it was meant to be. Like you said, and I said in my original post, it's really the Jihadists and extremists that practice it as it was meant to be. I can't imagine it will become watered down unless Muslims publicly refute parts of the Qu'ran...

[alenbarbaf]

Our time is separated in two periods. First period, the period of Hell, the era of HELL was before Christ and in this period the majority of people went to Hell including Adam, Eve, prophet and King David , prophet Jeremiah and many other righteous people at least this is what happened based on Gospel of Nicodemus http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...nicodemus.html.

Since Word of God or Jesus came, a new period of Heaven started since people had the possibility to enter Heaven through baptism . Islam tries to keep people in the Era of Hell when otherwise they would have a chance to enter Heaven. Is not funny that devil imposes people to dress modestly to lure them into a religion that tries to keep them away from food for eternal life http://www.monachos.net/forum/showth...r-eternal-life.

Islam is evil for this reason. Islam is truly a danger for Muslims, preventing them to take food for eternal life.http://www.monachos.net/forum/showth...r-eternal-life

[JanetMorris]

The building of the Cordoba house near ground zero is a symbol of victory and conquest over the infidel. It is a victory lap for muslims and a great recruiting tool for jihad. Why are they calling it the Cordoba initiative? Cordoba is a city in Spain which was the seat of the caliphate. They confiscated the largest church dedicated to the Theotokos and renamed it the Great Mosque of Cordoba'. To muslims the name Cordoba signifys victory over the non-believers.

These mosques of conquest represent the righteousness of jihad to muslims. Building these mosques of conquest is nothing new. Jerusalem was never a major holy place in the koran yet a mosque sits atop the rubble of solomons temple. Bethlehem is not a holy site of Islam yet plans are underway to bbuild an enormous mosque next to the church of the Nativity which will dwarf it. Mosques have been bbuilt outside the vatican where there are no muslim precense. The Cordoba mosque in NYC will be 13 floors BUT includes air rights. They will indeed take advantage of that and in 40 years this mosque will become a skyscraper. The masterminds behind the mosques could have cancelled the plans considering the enormous outcry, they could have been good neighbors and agree to move the mosque to a different location, a location where muslims actually reside in. But this isnt happening.

Meanwhile the tiny St Nicholas church destroyed when the towers collapsed is in limbo. The agreement to move the church down the street to a larger property has fallen apart. The Port Authority even forbade St Nicholas from constructing a dome that is taller than the planned memorial site. Yet the city is allowing a skyscraper mosque funded by kuwaiti and saudi officials to be erected. The tiny plot the church originally sat on has been compromised because the developers used eminent domain and have confiscated the land underneath it, to build an underground driveway.
The need for the developers to take away the St Nicholas land was outlined in june 2008 in the 'ground zero assessment report'. The very same day the report was issued, 40 miles east, at St Paul's GOA Cathedral in Hempstead, NY an icon of St Nicholas began weeping. This made the news and footage can be found on youtube, yet to this day no one has made the connection(well some of us have).

While many muslims are good people, their religion is a demonic fraud. It is built on censorship and denial. They think its the truth simply because opposition thought is censored and banned. There is no opposing view at all, its all banned. The imams have created a web of myths to promote their propaganda. From the myth that they were great scholars who invented the numeral system (the hindus invented the numeral system centuries before the birth of muhammed) to the myth they were great artists creating geometric patterns using mosaics(all mosaic work and architecture in islam was erected by hiring greek, coptic, armenian and serbian artisans and thats a documented fact) to the myth that the koran is a heavenly book (much of it is plaigerism from christianity, the jewish midrash and zoroastrianism).

[floadaVonfoli]

Islam keeps people in the Era of Hell even if they biologically live in the Era of Heaven, Era of Orthodox Church that gives food for eternal Life every Sunday at least.

[NicolasOL]

Maybe I have my time frames mixed up, but didn't Islam start about 500 years AFTER Christ? So it started in your Era of Heaven analogy, not the hell era.

[ptolerezort]

Maybe I have my time frames mixed up, but didn't Islam start about 500 years AFTER Christ? So it started in your Era of Heaven analogy, not the hell era.

Yes, that pilgrimage to Medina (the Hijra) was in 622 A. D. That is when the Islamic calendar begins.

[Arbinknit]

When Adam ate the fruit human kind has 2 problems:
Death
Interdiction to go to Heaven.

Orthodox Christianity solves death problem by Food for eternal life.
Orthodox Christianity solves interdiction to go to heaven by baptism.

Before Orthodox Church in the era of Hell , from my understanding the 2 problems were very hard to solve this is why we find distinguished people in Hell like Adam, Abraham, King and Prophet David, Jeremiah as it is said in Gospel of Nicodemus.

It does not matter if a new religion is started in 2010, if it does not solve the 2 problems, death and interdiction to go to Heaven, as far as my understanding goes it is a religion from the Era of Hell and it is evil because lures people to live spiritually in the Era of Hell and biologically in the Era of Heaven. This is sad. Everybody must strive for himself and his family to live both spiritually and biologically in the Era of Heaven this is why people need to come into Orthodox Church, the Church established by Jesus in year 33. Christians need to come home, to Home Church, to Orthodox Church especially protestants since Protestantism has renounced food for eternal life or have replaced it with a simple meal renouncing to Holy Liturgy. However, the complexity of final judgment belongs to God.

If the 2 great problems are not solved, death and interdiction to go to heaven, solving dressing modestly problem, not getting drunk problem may be useless or almost useless. people dressed modestly before Era of Heaven and drank in moderation before Era of Heaven, however Jesus needed to come because of the 2 great problems that were unsolved. Jesus did not bring just Teachings as some books say so be careful to have both baptism in orthodox Church and Food for eternal life in orthodox Church, the Church established by Jesus in year 33+ not invented by men in 1500+. Men can not give eternal life, Jesus can and does through Eastern Orthodox Church like Orthodox Church of Russia, Orthodox Church of Romania, Orthodox Church of Bulgaria, Orthodox Church of Greece and Orthodox Church of America http://www.oca.org/DIRlists.parish.asp?SID=9 , Orthodox Church of Antioch, Orthodox Church of Jerusalem and many other Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Church Jesus established. If people come into these Churches they do so because they want to live spiritually in the Era of Heaven. As a fact , all the Churches you read about in Bible but the Church of Rome , all these Churches like the Church of Ephesus, Antioch, Corinth , Jerusalem that is First Church in the World established in Pentecost day are TODAY Eastern Orthodox Churches and one man going into Clinical Death and getting to Heaven, even if from a mixed community with half Muslims and half Christians could see just one Muslim there and asked Jesus why the Muslim was there and the response was, he accepted me unto his deathbed, so people that are not Christian usually went to Hell in clinical death and they need to know that even on their death bed if devils approach they can accept Jesus as Savior as did the thief on the cross.

[sbrpkkl]

The west is completely in the dark about the islamic mindset. In fact the west blame themselves for the crusades thinking the byzantines with the help of the crusaders stole the muslim lands of Palestine! Westerners think the arab muslims invented the numeral system, when in reality the numeral system including the number zero was invented by hindus centuries before the existence of islam.

Westerners think the domed churches of eastern christianity were copied from mosques and not the other way around. They think the mosaic geometric patterns and mosaic designs in mosques were invented by muhammedans when in reality those same muhamedans hired, greek, coptic, armenian and serbian artisans to decorate and build their temples since all they knew were how to erect tents.

[Psymoussy]

I too read the Koran once - once is enough! It is very frightening, but then so is the Old Testament, or St John's Apocalypse, if read without Orthodox understanding. I rather suspect that I didn't 'get it', certainly it didn't 'get' me! Thanks be to God, as I read it before I came to faith.

I'm also not sure about applying the term 'evil' to Muslims, while there is still hope that they might be saved. Certainly all of them commit evil acts, but then so do almost all Christians, including me.

Where I do have a big issue is the way in which the authorities seem to think that favouring Muslims is OK, but Christian values must never be allowed to influence anything in our secular society. However, the Holy Fathers teach that the authorities rule because God allows it, so I guess this is not ultimately out-with the Plan.

INXC,
Richard

[XqrkN4a0]

I have a great deal of sympathy with the socio-political concerns expressed here. But... surely the most dangerous aspect of Islam is its denial of the incarnation and the Trinity, yes? A more clear-cut testimony to the influence of an evil spirit one will not find than "God is one and He has no son."

We should nonetheless pray that those who know nothing but Islam follow the dictates of conscience we all are subject to, being made in the image of God. And pray that the Just Judge will have mercy upon them.

In Christ,
Evan

[kasandrasikl]

This article about a Persia guy who left Islam is quite interesting and on-topic: http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/...ft_behind.html

[Aeaefee]

I too read the Koran once - once is enough! It is very frightening, but then so is the Old Testament, or St John's Apocalypse, if read without Orthodox understanding. I rather suspect that I didn't 'get it', certainly it didn't 'get' me! Thanks be to God, as I read it before I came to faith.

I'm also not sure about applying the term 'evil' to Muslims, while there is still hope that they might be saved. Certainly all of them commit evil acts, but then so do almost all Christians, including me.

Where I do have a big issue is the way in which the authorities seem to think that favouring Muslims is OK, but Christian values must never be allowed to influence anything in our secular society. However, the Holy Fathers teach that the authorities rule because God allows it, so I guess this is not ultimately out-with the Plan.

INXC,
Richard

I agree. A missionary (protestant) to the Middle East once said that 80% of the Qur'an (spelling?) comes from the Old Testament. Yes, some of Islam is evil, but there are a lot of Muslims who are just trying to make a living like workers in the U. S. Like I wrote in my first post, sometimes I struggle with it, but I do try to remember not to steretype all of them.

[hhynmtrxcp]

I find it interesting that the term 'evil' being applied to Muslims. If you do that then apart from ourselves apply it to every follower of every religion. If you walk the streets of England it is not muslims that are falling down drunk, wearing micro skirts, flirting at work, getting divorced, watching inappropriate TV and films, falling into bed with everyone, having teenage pregnancies, catching sexual diseases. More than likely they are doing what we don't do. Sitting down to meals at the same time as a family. Praying 5 times a day and behaving appropriately in and out of the home.

Whilst I fully believe that the Koran is a rather primitive re-working of the Bible and that theologically at odds with my beliefs and that of the Church this Islamaphobia serves no one. The very reason that Islam is in the ascendant in the west is because, like the Orthodox, it's insistence on moral values and a firm believe system attracts western converts because of the mess that contemporary Christianity is in.

[zuhraliyana]

Dear all,

Please let us remember the scope of this forum in determining what future contributions might be added to this thread. A political discussion on the nature of Islam or its relation to other religions is certainly outside our scope, and discussion should not continue in this vein. However, if discussion of the patristic testimony to the advent and nature of this religion can be had without the political dimension taking over, there may be room for it to continue. But let's not get things too side-tracked with issues that really are outside the scope of this forum.

INXC, Fr Irenei

[sposicke]

This excerpt from St. John of Damascus' Fount of Knowledge articulates the theological problems with the Islamic understanding of the nature of God. Beyond any political threats Islam may or may not pose, perhaps it is most usefully engaged here as a particularly noxious heresy.

"(Muslims) call us Hetaeriasts, or Associators, because, they say, we introduce an associate with God by declaring Christ to the Son of God and God. We say to them in rejoinder: ‘The Prophets and the Scriptures have delivered this to us, and you, as you persistently maintain, accept the Prophets. So, if we wrongly declare Christ to be the Son of God, it is they who taught this and handed it on to us.’ But some of them say that it is by misinterpretation that we have represented the Prophets as saying such things, while others say that the Hebrews hated us and deceived us by writing in the name of the Prophets so that we might be lost. And again we say to them: ‘As long as you say that Christ is the Word of God and Spirit, why do you accuse us of being Hetaeriasts? For the word, and the spirit, is inseparable from that in which it naturally has existence. Therefore, if the Word of God is in God, then it is obvious that He is God. If, however, He is outside of God, then, according to you, God is without word and without spirit. Consequently, by avoiding the introduction of an associate with God you have mutilated Him. It would be far better for you to say that He has an associate than to mutilate Him, as if you were dealing with a stone or a piece of wood or some other inanimate object. Thus, you speak untruly when you call us Hetaeriasts; we retort by calling you Mutilators of God.’"

In Christ,
Evan

[purchasviagra]

Thank you for that quote Evan. I love that piece by St. John.

Kosta, I was wondering if you or anyone else had any articles on the mosaic geometric patterns and mosaic designs in mosques being really created by hired, greek, coptic, armenian and serbian artisans?

More on topic, does anyone else have any other patristic writings on this topic?