[OWDavid]

I'm being a caddie for someone in a matchplay competition and wanted to get some clarification on the rule to do with lost and provisional balls as there seems to be a difference in opinion when I've asked a few people.

Here's an example. I pull a tee shot left and shortish off our first tee where there's deep rough and then out of bounds (OOB). I think it's likely that I've lost the ball so I declare I'm playing a provisional and hit it straight and long down the middle of the fairway. As I understand the R&A rule 27, I don't have to go looking for the original and can instead go straight to the provisional, and since it's closer to the hole than the original ball, once I've made a stroke at it that's now the ball in play and I've made my fourth shot. Is that correct?

Also, just to further clarify the possibilities:-

a) As I'm walking to the provisional my opponent goes towards where my original ball went and believes that he's found my ball. As I understand it I must identify the ball, as refusing to do so, or incorrectly identifying it as not my ball (lying), would incur a penalty which I assume to be 2 shots in stroke play and I assume lose of hole in matchplay. Also if I then play the provisional I assume that I'm then playing a wrong ball resulting in disqualification if I don't correct that before the next tee.

b) If the ball found in a) above is mine, I must abandon the provisional ball and play the, now found, original ball as it lies for my second shot, providing it wasn't OOB

c) If the ball found in a) above was mine and is OOB, I must abandon that ball and can pick it up without penalty as my provisional is now the ball in play and I'm lying 3

d) If I've gone forward to my provisional, made a stroke at it from near to, or closer to to the hole than, where my original ball was thought to be lost and someone then finds it, that ball is no longer in play and I can pick it up without penalty and continue playing the provisional ball

e) If I play a provisional ball off the tee and duff it 100 yds forward so I'm still behind where the original ball is deemed to be lost, I should then continue to make strokes to the provisional ball as long as long as those are taken from further away from the hole than my original ball is thought to be. If I then look for my original, find it and make a stroke at it, I have then played my second shot and can pick up the provisional ball without penalty. If I am unable to find the original ball, I'll then continue with the provisional ball, counting the appropriate number of shots, including penalty.

Is all of that correct or am I reading the rules wrong? Any help that can be given to help me sort this out will be greatly appreciated.

[Zfdeisde]

I'm being a caddie for someone in a matchplay competition and wanted to get some clarification on the rule to do with lost and provisional balls as there seems to be a difference in opinion when I've asked a few people.

Here's an example. I pull a tee shot left and shortish off our first tee where there's deep rough and then out of bounds (OOB). I think it's likely that I've lost the ball so I declare I'm playing a provisional and hit it straight and long down the middle of the fairway. As I understand the R&A rule 27, I don't have to go looking for the original and can instead go straight to the provisional, and since it's closer to the hole than the original ball, once I've made a stroke at it that's now the ball in play and I've made my fourth shot. Is that correct?

Also, just to further clarify the possibilities:-

a) As I'm walking to the provisional my opponent goes towards where my original ball went and believes that he's found my ball. As I understand it I must identify the ball, as refusing to do so, or incorrectly identifying it as not my ball (lying), would incur a penalty which I assume to be 2 shots in stroke play and I assume lose of hole in matchplay. Also if I then play the provisional I assume that I'm then playing a wrong ball resulting in disqualification if I don't correct that before the next tee.

b) If the ball found in a) above is mine, I must abandon the provisional ball and play the, now found, original ball as it lies for my second shot, providing it wasn't OOB

c) If the ball found in a) above was mine and is OOB, I must abandon that ball and can pick it up without penalty as my provisional is now the ball in play and I'm lying 3

d) If I've gone forward to my provisional, made a stroke at it from near to, or closer to to the hole than, where my original ball was thought to be lost and someone then finds it, that ball is no longer in play and I can pick it up without penalty and continue playing the provisional ball

e) If I play a provisional ball off the tee and duff it 100 yds forward so I'm still behind where the original ball is deemed to be lost, I should then continue to make strokes to the provisional ball as long as long as those are taken from further away from the hole than my original ball is thought to be. If I then look for my original, find it and make a stroke at it, I have then played my second shot and can pick up the provisional ball without penalty. If I am unable to find the original ball, I'll then continue with the provisional ball, counting the appropriate number of shots, including penalty.

Is all of that correct or am I reading the rules wrong? Any help that can be given to help me sort this out will be greatly appreciated.

First, in your example, there is nothing preventing your competitors from searching for your first "lost" golf ball within the alloted 5 minutes (you cannot tell them to ignore your first lost golf ball or tell them to not look for it). If they do find it, you must play it as it lies, assuming that it was not hit OB.

a). I believe that is correct.

b) Correct.

c) Correct.

d) Correct.

e) Incorrect. As soon as you play additional strokes with the provisional ball, your original ball is deemed removed from play. In this example, you have 5 minutes to walk forward of your provisional ball's position to find your original ball.

[Nidsstese]

I actually believe e) is correct. From my understanding (I could be wrong), but you can continue to make strokes on your provisional so long as you haven't reached the point where the original is.

Rule 27b: The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in playunder penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

[zlZ95pjt]

I'm being a caddie for someone in a matchplay competition and wanted to get some clarification on the rule to do with lost and provisional balls as there seems to be a difference in opinion when I've asked a few people.

Here's an example. I pull a tee shot left and shortish off our first tee where there's deep rough and then out of bounds (OOB). I think it's likely that I've lost the ball so I declare I'm playing a provisional and hit it straight and long down the middle of the fairway. As I understand the R&A rule 27, I don't have to go looking for the original and can instead go straight to the provisional, and since it's closer to the hole than the original ball, once I've made a stroke at it that's now the ball in play and I've made my fourth shot. Is that correct?

Also, just to further clarify the possibilities:-

a) As I'm walking to the provisional my opponent goes towards where my original ball went and believes that he's found my ball. As I understand it I must identify the ball, as refusing to do so, or incorrectly identifying it as not my ball (lying), would incur a penalty which I assume to be 2 shots in stroke play and I assume lose of hole in matchplay. Also if I then play the provisional I assume that I'm then playing a wrong ball resulting in disqualification if I don't correct that before the next tee.

b) If the ball found in a) above is mine, I must abandon the provisional ball and play the, now found, original ball as it lies for my second shot, providing it wasn't OOB

c) If the ball found in a) above was mine and is OOB, I must abandon that ball and can pick it up without penalty as my provisional is now the ball in play and I'm lying 3

d) If I've gone forward to my provisional, made a stroke at it from near to, or closer to to the hole than, where my original ball was thought to be lost and someone then finds it, that ball is no longer in play and I can pick it up without penalty and continue playing the provisional ball

e) If I play a provisional ball off the tee and duff it 100 yds forward so I'm still behind where the original ball is deemed to be lost, I should then continue to make strokes to the provisional ball as long as long as those are taken from further away from the hole than my original ball is thought to be. If I then look for my original, find it and make a stroke at it, I have then played my second shot and can pick up the provisional ball without penalty. If I am unable to find the original ball, I'll then continue with the provisional ball, counting the appropriate number of shots, including penalty.

Is all of that correct or am I reading the rules wrong? Any help that can be given to help me sort this out will be greatly appreciated.

B, C, D & E are correct. You are allowed to continue play with the provisional ball whilst walking to the original position, so long as NO shots are played from in front of where the original ball is deemed to be.

With A, you are quite correct in that due to nominating a PROVISIONAL ball from the tee, until such time that you state that the Provisional is now in play, your first ball is still active until the end of the 5 minute search or it is found OOB. If after seeing that the Provisional ball was so good you wished to continue with that one rather than look for the first, you should have, after leaving the tee area, made it totally clear to all parties that you were deeming the original ball LOST. Obviously if you do not do this and someone finds it within the allotted time you are bound to play it no matter how gruesome the lie may be.

[OWDavid]

First, in your example, there is nothing preventing your competitors from searching for your first "lost" golf ball within the alloted 5 minutes (you cannot tell them to ignore your first lost golf ball or tell them to not look for it). If they do find it, you must play it as it lies, assuming that it was not hit OB.

a). I believe that is correct.

b) Correct.

c) Correct.

d) Correct.

e) Incorrect. As soon as you play additional strokes with the provisional ball, your original ball is deemed removed from play. In this example, you have 5 minutes to walk forward of your provisional ball's position to find your original ball.

Omega, thanks for your reply. In response to the section in bold, I agree that they can look for my ball for up to 5 minutes, but the rule seems to suggest that as soon as I play another shot at the provisional ball, as long as it was close to, or nearer the hole than, my original ball, the provisional ball now becomes the ball in play and the original ball is dead. See bhilton's reply below.

I actually believe e) is correct. From my understanding (I could be wrong), but you can continue to make strokes on your provisional so long as you haven't reached the point where the original is.

Rule 27b: The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in playunder penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

Thanks bhilton, that's the ruling I was looking at and referring to in point e) of my original post.

[O25YtQnn]

Good thread, I was not aware of E

[Knongargoapex]

Good thread, I was not aware of E

haha oddly enough, even after tons of tournaments in my younger days...neither was I.

This new knowledge will be very beneficial to me...well, I hope it's not, but it may be.

[18holesin]

Good thread, I was not aware of E

same here

[Cgnebksb]

B, C, D & E are correct. You are allowed to continue play with the provisional ball whilst walking to the original position, so long as NO shots are played from in front of where the original ball is deemed to be.

With A, you are quite correct in that due to nominating a PROVISIONAL ball from the tee, until such time that you state that the Provisional is now in play, your first ball is still active until the end of the 5 minute search or it is found OOB. If after seeing that the Provisional ball was so good you wished to continue with that one rather than look for the first, you should have, after leaving the tee area, made it totally clear to all parties that you were deeming the original ball LOST. Obviously if you do not do this and someone finds it within the allotted time you are bound to play it no matter how gruesome the lie may be.

My understanding is that you can not declare a ball lost. If you hit a second ball and do not state that it is a provisional then the second ball is in play even if you find the first one. You can choose not to look for a ball but in matchplay your opponents would be perfectly entitled to look for it and if they find it and you identify it your provisional is no longer in play.

[QxmFwtlam]

I believe if you are to continue using a provisional ball before you get to your original, you must declare before each shot that it is still provisional.

[OWDavid]

B, C, D & E are correct. You are allowed to continue play with the provisional ball whilst walking to the original position, so long as NO shots are played from in front of where the original ball is deemed to be.

With A, you are quite correct in that due to nominating a PROVISIONAL ball from the tee, until such time that you state that the Provisional is now in play, your first ball is still active until the end of the 5 minute search or it is found OOB. If after seeing that the Provisional ball was so good you wished to continue with that one rather than look for the first, you should have, after leaving the tee area, made it totally clear to all parties that you were deeming the original ball LOST. Obviously if you do not do this and someone finds it within the allotted time you are bound to play it no matter how gruesome the lie may be.

That's exactly what I'd always been told to do, declare verbally that you're assuming the ball to be lost, but found something on the R&A's website in the rules explorer at the following link:-

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Am...7&subRuleNum=1

If you scroll down to the bottom of Rule 27-1 there's an FAQ section where the question, "Can a player verbally declare his ball to be lost?" is asked. The reply is:-

A player cannot render a ball lost by declaration. A ball can only be considered lost when:
a) it is not found or identified by the player within 5 minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or
b) the player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (See Rule 27-2b); or
c) the player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke or distance under rule 26-1a, 27-1, or 28a; or
d) the player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1b or c); or
e) the player has made a stroke at a substituted ball

From what I read into that, no-one can verbally declare a lost ball, it's only deemed lost when one of the actions mentioned above is taken, and that the 5 minute rule only applies is the player, a member of their team, or one of their caddies, starts looking for the ball.

If you go to that link, there's a section to the right titled "Decisions related to rule 27-1" that has some queries sent in by people and the appropriate ruling. Makes interesting reading.

[cristmiff]

Could you just take an unplayable on the first ball and play the provisiaonal as your new ball? -of course with the penalty

[gedsiz]

So as far as "A" is concerned, do not declare the second ball provisional - just play it as your third stroke. There is no requirement to declare it provisional so if you wish to abandon the first ball, do not declare the new ball provisional.

Also, if your opponent finds the first ball you are not required to play it as it lies; you always have the option of declaring a ball "unplayable" and you can take the appropriate relief of "two club lengths no closer", "keep the spot where the ball is found between you and the hole" or "replay from the original spot".

[OWDavid]

So as far as "A" is concerned, do not declare the second ball provisional - just play it as your third stroke. There is no requirement to declare it provisional so if you wish to abandon the first ball, do not declare the new ball provisional.

Also, if your opponent finds the first ball you are not required to play it as it lies; you always have the option of declaring a ball "unplayable" and you can take the appropriate relief of "two club lengths no closer", "keep the spot where the ball is found between you and the hole" or "replay from the original spot".

Bad wording on my part - I meant that if the original ball was found before I hit the second shot on the provisional then the original is now in play and I've have all the normal options as you mentioned. I know I can just put a ball down on the tee and play for 3, but I always prefer to play a provisional if I'm uncertain if the first one is lost.

[OWDavid]

Could you just take an unplayable on the first ball and play the provisiaonal as your new ball? -of course with the penalty

The rules specifically dictate against that. If you find your ball, declare it unplayable and choose to go back to where you hit it from, you can't use your provisional ball for that purpose - you must go back to the tee and play another shot and your original ball is dead and should be picked up. If you then mess up your second tee shot and need to play a provisional you need to play a new provisional ball. Having said that, if I was in that position I'd probably just head off to the bar to drown my sorrows!!

[Cgnebksb]

Could you just take an unplayable on the first ball and play the provisiaonal as your new ball? -of course with the penalty

No, if you find your first ball you can no longer use the provisional even if you take an uplayable - usual options apply.

[Zfdeisde]

Could you just take an unplayable on the first ball and play the provisiaonal as your new ball? -of course with the penalty

No. You have to first find your ball before you can declare it unplayable. Once you find your ball, your provisional ball is no longer an option.

[Zfdeisde]

I actually believe e) is correct. From my understanding (I could be wrong), but you can continue to make strokes on your provisional so long as you haven't reached the point where the original is.

Rule 27b: The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in playunder penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

That's interesting about Rule 27-2b. But what happens if you play a provisional ball yet do not reach the place where your original ball is likely to be?

For example, a hole has 2 fairways enroute to the green that run in different directions, one left and the other right (a risky shortcut fairway and a longer, safe fairway). Your first ball may be lost in deep rough of the risky shortcut fairway, so you play a provisional to the other longer, safe fairway.

When you walk to your provisional ball, you will be nowhere close to your original first balls position. In that case, I don't see how Rule 27b can apply.

[GfBTWMmV]

I believe in that case the proximity of the provisional to the original is not a factor. Distance left to the hole would be the deciding factor on when you've reached the position of the original.

[Zfdeisde]

I believe in that case the proximity of the provisional to the original is not a factor. Distance left to the hole would be the deciding factor on when you've reached the position of the original.

Thanks. That makes sense. However, knowing how particular some may be (especially legal types) when it comes to the wording of the Rules of Golf, is there anything in the Rules which specifies that distance, not proximity, is know the deciding factor in this case?