[Mymnnarry]

Y- Chromosome's and 'Gothra'


http://www.boloji. com/astro/ 00324.htm


How was this genetic work done? Geneticists used a scientific fact, that most of the male Y-chromosome is passed intact from father to son. Females do not carry the Y-chromosome. With modern advances in genetics, this fact has been used to trace paternal lineage, and resolve stories like Thomas Jefferson's.

Thomas Jefferson did not have surviving sons from his legal wife. But his paternal uncle's male lineage is in tact to present time. The genetic Y-chromosome of these persons (eight generations down from Thomas Jefferson's paternal uncle) living at present time was used as the reference. This was compared with intact male line persons from (Five generations down from) Sally Fleming living presently. The geneticists used polymorphic markers so that Y-chromosome can be distinguished by haplotypes. They found that Sally Fleming's son Eston's male line progeny had same haplotypes as Field Jefferson who was paternal uncle of Thomas Jefferson. Using other physical and living proximity factors, the geneticists have concluded with high probability that Eston Fleming was the son of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Fleming.

This class of human male lineage research is now very active and is being conducted in native populations of Wales, England, in Iceland and to establish uniqueness, paternity, historical lineage, medical issues and intellectual issues of heredity etc amongst various population groups.
Does this not ring a bell amongst traditional Hindus who believe in 'gothra' identification carried down from Sanathana-dharma orthodoxy?. 'Gothra' is an identity carried by male lineage in India from time immemorial. Most people have gothra chain names traceable to Rig Vedic Rishis like 'Gowthama', 'Vasishta' 'Viswamithra' and to first sons of Vaivaswatha Manu like Angirasa & Bhrigu. Purana such as Vishnu Purana refer to individual identity through 'Gothra'. Listings of more than 250 Gothra chains have been explicitly listed. I have heard of instances of Muslims converted from Hinduism still keeping track of their 'Gothra'.

For example we know that Buddha, named Siddhartha was of 'Gowthama Gothra'. It means that his Y-chromosomes were probably from Rig-Vedic Rishi 'Gowthama Rahoogana'.

How did the people of 3000-4000 years ago realize that genetically there was transference of some unique characteristics only from father to son (in the form of Y-chromosomes) ? In recent past when it was fashionable to condemn all Indian traditional systems as of no value, non-believers have referred to 'Gothra' as archaic, unscientific, irrelevant and male chauvinistic!

Modern DNA & genetic research has confirmed male line Y-chromosomal transference, through 8 generations in case of Thomas Jefferson. 'Gothra' in essence really stands for Y-chromosomal identity.

Nearly 2500 years have passed since death of Buddha, but many 'Gowthama Gothra' individuals exist now also. They can claim genetic relation to Buddha. Typically 4 generations occur in 100 years and in 2500 years nearly 100 generations are complete. Other 'Gothra' chains may have run 100-200 generations from Vedic period if male lineage did continue unbroken. Do Y-chromosomes remain intact after, say 100 generations of unbroken male issues? Genetic mutations may or may not have changed some Y-chromosomes.

This appears to be a very interesting field of research for future to see if persons of same 'Gothra' in the present generations have common and unique Y-chromosomal features. – Dr S.Balakrishna

[Quonuttott]

Ms.Sunkan,

Thanks for your thought provoking article.

I wish further research is carried on and if the theory of gothra has any significance with modern science.

All the best

[DouseAuthott]

Dear all,

Just a question..there are also many who dont have a Gotra...what about these group..life still goes on isnt it? Genes are still passed on from generations to generations...

Is Gotra really all that important?

After all Gotra...is from the word Go(cow) Trayate(Protect)...Protecter of the cow..
before cows and oxen were domesticated was there Gotra ?
as far as I know goats were domesticated first before our bovine friends..
So goat is (ajah)..why not Ajatra?


renu

[Muhabsssa]

Dr. Renuka ji,

Some time before in an article I read that Gothram name demonstrates the family's traditional style of knowledge acquisition and expertise in ancient theories...

That's the only importance I believe can be attached to the concept of Gothram.

And in today's era, I believe even this has no relevancy and importance to go for distinguishing a family's knowledge and expertise in ancient theories.

[yasmin]

Dear all,

Just a question..there are also many who dont have a Gotra...what about these group..life still goes on isnt it? Genes are still passed on from generations to generations...

Is Gotra really all that important?

After all Gotra...is from the word Go(cow) Trayate(Protect)...Protecter of the cow..
before cows and oxen were domesticated was there Gotra ?
as far as I know goats were domesticated first before our bovine friends..
So goat is (ajah)..why not Ajatra?


renu

renu,

my elders told me,gothram is an idnetity marker,so that community,offsprings flourish.saha-gothra marriage was prohibhited,in ancient times.of course there are exceptions to the rule,depending upon circumstances.

by analysing the samskritham word gothra,associating with cow is incorrect.i am tring to find the link,in context with manushya or humanity.plz give some time.

sanathana dharma practices,which is continued even today,is to give vahanas to the lords.some lords have multiple vahanas,just like we chant,garuda vahana narayana.....

nachi naga.

[MizzDaizzy]

The research is revealing and should be continued to its full course for the knowledge of the community. So the word Gotra has relevance and confirm descendency. But verification of this may open pandora's box. Somewhere some time infiltration could have taken place which would now be embarassing to correct. Therefore it becomes necessary to continue religious practices and rituals.One has to be a brahmin to know what it is to be a brahmin let any body assault him. In the circumstances it is all the more necessary that we impart this and many other related knowledge to our descendants.

I am not quoting the following as wit or humour but to instruct ourselves better. A brahmin father was performing 'upanayana' ceremony to his only son. In the process, as is customary, the 'purohitar' asked the 'gruhastar' what is his son's gotra. Pat came the reply from the father, "mine is this. I do not know what my son's gotra is"! We are not sure even if the lineage is legitimate, the name of gotra could have been heard wrong or carried down wrongly.

The above instance instructs us to be careful. Thus arises an opportunity. What if we all
suffix the name of gotra to our name as surname. Already, many of us have difficulty in explaining our ‘surnameless’ name outside the south. The suffix could read like “Haritha Rg” or “Haritha Yj”/Sa. There should be a unified and concerted (or sponsored?) effort to effect this necessary change.

Talking of Vedas, nowadays the ‘shastrigals’ nearly overlook the veda of the ‘karta’, much less the ‘sutra’ he belongs to, assuming all are ‘Yajur vedis’. There had been a practice to enquire about relevant details from ‘gruhastar’. This practice is also being given a go by. It is time we corrected all anomolies in our day-to-day religious practice to claim to be real brahmins.

[Seilehogshell]

thanku sharmaji,
looking forward to your research here...sunkan

[DJkillos]

Intresting info!

If we are too look at this from a scientific perspective it is mainly via our Y-Chromosome by which we claim our Brahmin lineage.
Our community so as to speak is rather patriarchal, thus for us it is our y-dna that is of utmost importance and not our mt-DNA, which is arguablly of a local origin. We can safely say our existence is based on our Y-DNA.
It is general knowledge that the first wave of Brahmins took local females as their wives. Local females sought Brahmin males as their husbands, what we could call 'upwardly mobile'. However, it was never the other way around. Thus most Brahmins claim their 'Aryan' lineage from their paternal side and any intermixing with the locals is strictly maternal.

I did a search for something related and this is apparently the I&I 21 ydna composition.

If anyone can further explain what this exactly means that'd be great.

What I can make of it now, is that R1a and J2 Y-DNA are the strongest markers for I&I and Brahmins in general as far as paternal lineage goes.

__
Darn, something's wrong with my mouse, I'll post it here later..

[DariushPetresku]

I heard that if seven generations are passed on, the relationship of brother and sister is cut off in the same gothra..under these circumstances is it necessary to check for gothra matching in matrimonial alliance. the expets my comment..
chandrasekaran,bangalore.

[Qxsumehj]

I&I 21 Y-DNA haplogroup compositon ~

Iyer: (J2a, R1a1, R1a1, L1, L1, R2, J2b2, L1, H1, R1a1, G2, R*, L1, R2, L1, J2a, R1a1, R1a1, R2, G2, C5, J2a, G2, R1a1, H, R1a1, C5, J2a, R1a1)

Iyengar: (R1a1, R1a1, R2, R1a1, R2, R1a1, H1, J2a1e, H1, R1a1, R2, R1a1, R1a1, J2a, G2, L1, R1a1, L1, J2a, J2b2, L1, J2a, R1a1, G2, H1, G2, J2a, L1, L1, G2).

_______________

Iyer: (Dravidian speaking Brahmin)
2/29 = 6.9% C5-M356
3/29 = 10.3% G2a-P15
1/29 = 3.4% H-M69
1/29 = 3.4% H1-M52
4/29 = 13.8% J2a-M410
1/29 = 3.4% J2b2-M241
5/29 = 17.2% L1-M76
1/29 = 3.4% R*-M207
8/29 = 27.6% R1a1a-M17
3/29 = 10.3% R2-M124

Iyengar: (Dravidian speaking Brahmin)
4/30 = 13.3% G2a-P15
3/30 = 10.0% H1-M52
4/30 = 13.3% J2a-M410
1/30 = 3.3% J2a1d-M158
1/30 = 3.3% J2b2-M241
5/30 = 16.7% L1-M76
9/30 = 30.0% R1a1a-M17
3/30 = 10.0% R2-M124

________________

Sengupta et al Y-DNA haplogroup frequency among Southern castes.

I think 'middle castes' must refer to Vaishyas and socially dominant Shudras, but really there is no middle caste as per the sacred texts as there is only dwija/twice born.

[Fhgzmftq]

Dear all

I just want one clarification. In the very first post, it was mentioned that gauthama gothra started from gowthama buddha. Is it correct? I think it originated from Gauthama maharishi (husband of ahalya devi). We never consider buddha as a sage in our smrithis and we are totally against him by philosophies na...

Pranams

[rbVmVlQ2]

Dear all

I just want one clarification. In the very first post, it was mentioned that gauthama gothra started from gowthama buddha. Is it correct? I think it originated from Gauthama maharishi (husband of ahalya devi). We never consider buddha as a sage in our smrithis and we are totally against him by philosophies na...

Pranams

you are right DD,
got this information from google....sunkan

1. Gouthama Gothra. Gautama Maharishi is one of the Saptarishis of the current Manvantara (seventh). He was one of the Maharishis of Vedic times, known to have been the discoverer of Mantras -- 'Mantra-drashtaa', in Sanskrit
The Rig Veda has several suktas that go with his name. He was the son of Rahugana, belonging to the line of Angiras. The Devi Bhagavatam says that the river Godavari is so named because of its association with Gautama. He had two sons by name Vamadeva and Nodhas, both themselves discoverers of Mantras
There is a hymn called Bhadra in the Sama Veda which again is ascribed to Gautama Maharishi. His wife is Ahalya,
The Puranas speak of the story wherein it is described how Gautama won the hand of Ahalya by perambulating the divine cow.
The Chief priest of King Janaka of Mithila, by name Shatananda, was the son of Gautama and Ahalya. Gautama's sixty-year long penance is mentioned in the Shanti parva of the Mahabharata
The Narada purana describes the story of the 12-year famine during which Gautama fed all the Rishis and saved them.
The Brahmaanda-purana mentions that this Gautama initiated one of the sub-branches of the Raanaayani branch of Sama Veda.
Some famous disciples of Gautama were Praachina-yogya, Shaandilya, Gaargya, and Bharadwaja.
According to the Ramayana, Rishi Gautama once went to take bath in the river Ganges early morning. The king of the devas, Indra, was fascinated with Gautam's wife, Ahalya. Indra came in the form of Gautam and made love to Ahalya ..
Gauatama was also the author of Dharma-sutra known as Gautama Dharma sutra [2] [3]. It is in fact the earliest Dharma Sutra
Sage Gautama was the most ancient sage of all Brahmin lawgivers. He was quoted by Baudhayana and belonged to Samaveda School. Gautama's teachings are called Gautamasutra or Gautamasmriti.
Gautamas Brahmins are originally settled in Brij region of North India

[unishisse]

Thank you Mam. Since the first post relates that with Buddha I just got confused. Thats all. Thanks for your clarification...

Pranams

[wCYvMKAc]

thnxs to all for providing such a knowledgable thread.pl go on further and keep posting......

[ëàìèíàò]

Dear Friends :

Brahmin gotra system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please open this link..this seems to be throwing lot of clarity in this subject..

Sanki

[Irrampbroow]

Comments on the Gotra system -

All Brahmans claim descent from one or more of the following seven Rishis ~ Atri, Brighu, Kutsa, Vashishta, Gautama, Kasyapa, Angiras. According to some, the Rishis are Agasthya, Angrias, Atri, Brighu, Kasyapa, Vashishta and Gautama. Under these Rishis are included eighteen ganams, under each ganam there are a number of gotras, amounting in all to about 230. Every Brahmin is expected to salute his superiors by repeating the Abhivadanam (salutation) which contains his lineage.

for example ~

I, Krishna by name, of Srivathsa gotra, with the pravara (lineage) of the five Rishis, Bharagava, Chyavana, Apnuvana, Aruva and Jamadagni, following the Apasthambha sutra of the Yajus Saka, am now saluting you.
Daily, at the close of the Sandhya prayers, this Abhivadhanam formula should be repeated by every Brahman.

[Yb4bulVR]

I think Abhivadaye is done as follows: Name of 3 *rishis (Abhivadaye Angirasa, Ambarisa, Youwanaachwa) thrayarsheya* pravaraanvita (sa: gotrah) (sa: Sutrah) ...veda sakayah, .....nama sharmana... aham asmiboh:

[icerrelmCam]

If we are too look at this from a scientific perspective it is mainly via our Y-Chromosome by which we claim our Brahmin lineage.
Our community so as to speak is rather patriarchal, thus for us it is our y-dna that is of utmost importance and not our mt-DNA, which is arguablly of a local origin. We can safely say our existence is based on our Y-DNA.
It is general knowledge that the first wave of Brahmins took local females as their wives. Local females sought Brahmin males as their husbands, what we could call 'upwardly mobile'. However, it was never the other way around. Thus most Brahmins claim their 'Aryan' lineage from their paternal side and any intermixing with the locals is strictly maternal.
I did a search for something related and this is apparently the I&I 21 ydna composition.

If anyone can further explain what this exactly means that'd be great.

What I can make of it now, is that R1a and J2 Y-DNA are the strongest markers for I&I and Brahmins in general as far as paternal lineage goes.

I&I 21 Y-DNA haplogroup compositon ~

Iyer: (J2a, R1a1, R1a1, L1, L1, R2, J2b2, L1, H1, R1a1, G2, R*, L1, R2, L1, J2a, R1a1, R1a1, R2, G2, C5, J2a, G2, R1a1, H, R1a1, C5, J2a, R1a1)

Iyengar: (R1a1, R1a1, R2, R1a1, R2, R1a1, H1, J2a1e, H1, R1a1, R2, R1a1, R1a1, J2a, G2, L1, R1a1, L1, J2a, J2b2, L1, J2a, R1a1, G2, H1, G2, J2a, L1, L1, G2).

_______________

Iyer: (Dravidian speaking Brahmin)
2/29 = 6.9% C5-M356
3/29 = 10.3% G2a-P15
1/29 = 3.4% H-M69
1/29 = 3.4% H1-M52
4/29 = 13.8% J2a-M410
1/29 = 3.4% J2b2-M241
5/29 = 17.2% L1-M76
1/29 = 3.4% R*-M207
8/29 = 27.6% R1a1a-M17
3/29 = 10.3% R2-M124

Iyengar: (Dravidian speaking Brahmin)
4/30 = 13.3% G2a-P15
3/30 = 10.0% H1-M52
4/30 = 13.3% J2a-M410
1/30 = 3.3% J2a1d-M158
1/30 = 3.3% J2b2-M241
5/30 = 16.7% L1-M76
9/30 = 30.0% R1a1a-M17
3/30 = 10.0% R2-M124

________________

Sengupta et al Y-DNA haplogroup frequency among Southern castes.

I think 'middle castes' must refer to Vaishyas and socially dominant Shudras, but really there is no middle caste as per the sacred texts as there is only dwija/twice born.

Some inputs, just in case this interests (to corelate the genetics with some history):

Will come to the point of populations moving from the north of present-day tamil-nadu to its south later. Will also touch upon the words in bold later..


… The Reyur record noted above mentions Koilboyas. Koil means temple and the Koi/boyas* may signify the existence of priestly class among the Boyas as early as the 7th century A.D., In the above record we further come across two Koiiboyas, one of Bharadvaja gotra and the other of Gautama gotra and thus the record suggests that there were different family groups in each of the Boya castes.

…R N. Nandi on the other hand, holds the view, on the basis of the Eastern Calukyan records that the Boya tribe was transformed into the caste of Boya Brahmins and for considerable time retained their identity in the same way as the Goragas or Saivite Brahmins. But a careful examination of the available epigraphies’ evidence reveals that the Boyas played an interesting role in the political and social history of Medieval Andhra. It was a story of several sections of the Boyas giving up their aboriginal habits and entering into the fold of the neighbouring Brahminical social order, gradually rising in the scale of civilization and social ranking and getting absorbed not only into the priestly class but into the ruling class and the trading and agricultural classes as well, ultimately losing their tribal identity. You can read the whole article here: Full text of "Dr.N.Venkataramanayya Commemoration Volume" (published by the AP government) but am providing some select inputs below

..But about the 7th century A D., the Boyas appear to have reaped the fruits of acculturation resulting from their nearness to and contracts with the neighbouring civilised societies in Andhra, Karnataka and Tamilnad. The Eastern Calukyan records of the 7th century A.D. suggest that the Boya priests emulated their counterparts in the Brahminical society in mastering Medic learning and performing Vedic rituals. Most of them added the suffix Sarma to their names which may be taken to mean 'Vedic Scholar'…

….In his Dasakumaracaritra, the great Sanskrit writer Dandin, who is said to have lived at the Pallava court about the middle of the 7th Century A. D, wails over the miserable plight of the Brahmins who lived in forests among the kiratas, eating their food and obeying their orders. Ketana of the 13th century who translated Dasakumaracaritra into a Telugu poem actually says that the Brahmins became teachers of the Boyas. It is not unreasonable to assume that Dandin described the conditions prevailing in the neighbourhood of the kingdom where he was living. The Dasakumaracaritra may thus be taken to give us a clue to the mastery of the Boya priests over vedic lore and their skill in performing Vedic rituals. It may be remembered that the age of the Pallavas was a period of vigorous Brahmanisation in the South. The Pallavas themselves were of non-Brahminical origin and the consensus is that the Kadambas were an aboriginal tribe worshipping the Kadamba tree as their totem. The origin of the Calukyas and Vishnukundins is in no way more flattering. But all these dynasties were stout champions of the vedic t//?ar/7?a-exhibiting the zeal of new converts like the Rajputs in medieval North India.

….The Koil Boya of the above record suggests that the Boyas had built temples of their own and engaged priests for conducting worship in them. It was the period when Brahmanism developed into theism of the puranic type with temple as the centre of religion and there was brisk temple building activity in the Pallava and Calukya kingdoms between which the Boyadesa was interposed. Again it was during this period devabhogas and brahmadeyas multiplied and the resultant compulsions of expanding agriculture trade it (became) almost imperative to admit the aboriginals like the Boyas into the fold of the peasant communities the Sudras of the Brahmanical system..

…. B. V. Krishna Rae on the other hand held the view that Bhoja means 'enjoyer' of the village and Boya is its vernacular form..

…villages that were granted or in which these Brahmin donees were settled are situated in Karmarastra within the Calukyan kingdom, but not far off from the Boya Kottams.

.. Madisarma alias Patiboya is also characterised as Kummunurboya. Kummanur is identified with Konur in the Settenapalli Taluq, Guntur District (Karmarastra).

…Among these Boya Brahmins the most popular gotras are Kaundinya, Bharadvaja, Kasyapa and Parasara. But it is strange that gotras are not recorded in many cases. Out of the 74 Brahmins in the Reyur grant 24 are without gotras. Five of the donees of the Chandalur record belong to the Kaundinya gotra and the sixth one belongs to Kalabava gotra. The word Kalabava does not sound like the name of a ft/shf though the Kalabavas are classed as a subdivision of Visvamitra. R N. Nandi points out that Kafava in Kannada and -Kafavu in Malayalam means a spinous shrub bearing edible black berries. Kalabava might probably be identical with Carissa Caranc/a and it was the totem or atleast the symbl of a section of the Boyas. The Kalabava gotra thus contains a clue to the aboriginal origin of the Brahmin family.

…The foregoing account reveals that the donees in the above grants with 'boya' suffix or alias were in fairly advanced stage of Brahmanisation. Consistent with the Eastern Calukyan policy, the officers in charge of the administration of the Boya Kottams encouraged the Boya Brahmins with land grants to settle down in different villages of Karmarastra almost adjacent to the Boya- vihara-desa, as "a second line of defence" to the Eastern Calukyan authority. As we do not come across Boya Brahmins in the subsequent records of the dynasty the only exception being that of the Bezwada grant of Calukya Bhima it may reasonably be assumed that they gradually lost their tribal identity and merged with the traditional Brahmin families of the region, gaining thereby equality with them in ritual purity. The village names which they had earlier used as aliases were retained or changed into their surnames. It may be noted that most of the present day Brahmin families of Andhra have village names as surnames.

….They even crossed the river Krishna and migrated into the Telingana region. Following different occupations, the Boyas gradually entered the main stream of the socio-politico-economic life of the lands.…..In several inscriptions we come across Golla Boyas who were probably the precursors of the present-day Golla caste.. .

…The Boyas were recruited even into the staff of temple servants and the Boya girls were admitted into the Sani Munnuvuru…The Boya temple servants like those in charge of temple gifts land grants in lieu of monthly salaries….The Boyas thus entered the agricultural class of the fertile plains...Even trade was not closed for the Boyas…

...Having thus become a part of the promising professions of agriculture and trade and having through them built up a fortune, it was natural that the Boyas aspired for corresponding social status and respectability.... From about the 12th century we frequently come across inscriptions recording gifts of cattle, money and land made by Boyas to temples and priests. It is again about this time we find Boyas, taking Sanskrit names such as Bhima Boya, Candana Boya, Surya Boya , Trikoti Boya, and give up their tribal suffix in preference to honorifics like Nayaka, Reddi, Nayudu, Nadu and Raju.

..An inscription from Palakollu (East Godavari) mentions Naganaboya, son of Chimgaraju gifting gadyanas to the temple of Ksbirarama and to the priest there in. The process climaxed the claim of the Boyas to the fourth caste and even to divine origin. Malleboya of the Suravaram record and Enjiliboya of the Tripurantakam record described themselves as to have belonged to the fourth caste. Malleboya was a benefactor of gods, Brahmins and sadhus whereas Enjiliboya was credited with capability to bear the entire burden of the earth (dharanibharana/kac/aksah).Jnkol\boyaoilhQ above mentioned Bezwada record which is undated, but said to be in the Calukyan characters, claims to have been a descendant of the Yaksa who had guided Arjuna, the Pandava to the Indrafcila hill. He compares himself to Kama in strength, valour and generosity, to Matali in ability to accomplish any task and to Hanuman in loyalty to his master but who the master of Trikotiboya was is not known.

..During the historic Cola-Calukya struggle for hegemony over Deccan, Andhradesa presented a miserable picture of a huge battle-field and the power of Vengi was much reduced. The situation gave rise to a (number) of local ruling families, such as the Durjayas of Velanadu, Kotas of Dharanikota, the Cagis of Gudimetta and the Haihayas of Konamandala. The mutually aggressive internal conflicts among these subordinate families and the frequent incursions of the neighbouring powers increased (the) military requirements of Vengi and her sub-ordinates which gave a rich opportunity to the talented Boyas. They entered the court and the army and soon by their ability and loyalty rose to positions of trust and authority. Having thus gained admission into the ruling elite, they, soon got integrated 'with it by matrimonial alliances. '

...However it was at the court of the rulers of Velanadu that the Boyas distinguished themselves as administrators and generals and rose to the highest positions including that of mahamandalesvaras and thus began to share the honours of the traditional ruling elite such as the Kotas and Haiahayas.

…There were several Boyas in the service of Kulottunga Rajendra Coda, occupying positions of authority. Codapanayaka son of Numkanaboya was his mulabhntya^ which might mean superintendent of his services. The position of sarvadhfkarf was held by Enjiliboya and after his death, his son Sri Boyacodi appears to have succeeded to the position, Enjiliboya described himself as to have belonged to the fourth caste, that is the caste to which the Velanati rulers belonged and thus he claimed social equality with his overlords.

[Trikaduliana]

Going by the lack of response to the post above, i suppose this topic does not interest WeAreTheFire anymore. I won't be surprised if WeAreTheFire, Staunch_Iyengar, Pucca Iyengar and {a few more} are one and the same person. Anyways, FYkind info, will post more on this soon.

[DenisLevvin]

Going by the lack of response to the post above, i suppose this topic does not interest WeAreTheFire anymore. I won't be surprised if WeAreTheFire, Staunch_Iyengar, Pucca Iyengar and {a few more} are one and the same person. Anyways, FYkind info, will post more on this soon.

happyhindu

nice to see you back from a hiatus

aren't we all one and the same ,philosophically a holy spirit