[gennnniiikk]

Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji,

We know that Adi Shankara united all diiferent deities from the different parts of India to promote Advaitha: Shiva from up North, Kali from Bengal, Ganapathy from Maharashtra/Gujarat, Krishna from I think Orissa, Vishnu from Andhra and Murugan from Tamil Nadu.

May be due to this effort the Gods got transmuted. Is my thinking not correct in terms of the timings involved?

Regards,
KRS

First the shanmadha concept is not accepted by historians. Sankaracharya uniting all sects is part of Tamil Nadu folklore. There are many things about Adi Sankaracharya which we accept today as facts. But they are not universally accepted.

1. Storas/works attributed to him-- In the Aparadhakshmapana Stotra the poet talks about his being very old ( more than 85). Adi Sankara did not live that long. The authorship of the Tantrik text Soundarya Lahiri is also in doubt. Saying that Acharya turned to Mimansa towards the end of his life and he became a Sri Vidya Upasaka negates the entire history of Adi Sankara which was Advaita Vedanta (Nirguna Brahman). There were many Sankarachryas in many of the maths. It is more likely that the works/deeds attributed to Adi Sankara are by them.

Then I do not expect agreement when people attribute his date of birth to B.C when all the scholars are in agreement about 800 A.D.

2. One of the popular goddesses worshipped in early sangam period was Korravai. Kodunagalloor temple in Kerala is believed to be Kannaki temple erected by the Cheras. So worship of Shakthi in Tamil Nadu predates that of Bengal.

3. The Sakthism as it existed/exists in Bengal is of a very much later period than 800 A.D.

4. Sakthism in Tamil Nadu is considered part of Saivism. It is so in Bengal also. Pure Sakthism is not common and exists only in books. The so called Sakthas of Bengal are all Shiva worshippers also.

5. John Woodruffe wrote about Tantras and Sakthism. He was based in Bengal and knew only about Bengal. That is why the existence of extensive Shakti worship in Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Gujarat, Bihar, Maharshtra,and Rajasthan were not taken into account. Do you know that the only Saktha community in India are the Maithili Brahmins from Bihar. He never knew about the tantrik works of Kerala, Tamil Nadu and other states or the Vaishnavite tantras like Lakshmi Tantra. Sri Ramakrishna's Tantrik Guru Maa Bhairavi Brahmani was not only a woman but also a staunch Krishna Bhaktai.

7. No one has bothered to study Sakthi worship in any other state than Bengal. The tales about Sakthism in Maharashtra and Gujarat are even being forgotten though the Goddesses and Shakthi temples remain as a mute witness to the prevalence of Sakthi worship. Of course all the temples like Ambaaji and Tulja Bhavani continue to draw devotees even today. MAA draws Bhakthas.

[brurdefdoro]

have seen that shaktaism in maharashtra is very strong....incidentally most kings seem to have modelled their worship after shakti or power personifying dieties since they beleived it wud bring them power in a fight / war...eg: tulja bhavani was the kula devi of the king shivaji's clan and also happens to be the tutelary deity of the nepal royals.

As per books by Susan Bayly, the nayakas were also shakti worshipping initially...there is one story abt krishnadeva raya taking a different lady every night before a war believing that the lady 'shakti' wud pass on her powers to him...he later sought and found peace in the vaishnava faith and gave up his kinky practices for good.

Hariharananda Paramahansa says in his book 'kriya yoga' that tantra somehow turned out to be the most misunderstood (and even abused) of all vedic texts, with westerners and new-age claimants.

Am wondering abt Krishna's origin - was it orissa or gujrat?

[wJswn5l3]

have seen that shaktaism in maharashtra is very strong....incidentally most kings seem to have modelled their worship after shakti or power personifying dieties since they beleived it wud bring them power in a fight / war...eg: tulja bhavani was the kula devi of the king shivaji's clan and also happens to be the tutelary deity of the nepal royals.

As per books by Susan Bayly, the nayakas were also shakti worshipping initially...there is one story abt krishnadeva raya taking a different virgin every night before a war believing that the lady 'shakti' wud pass on her powers to him...he later sought and found peace in the vaishnava faith and gave up his kinky practices for good.

Hariharananda Paramahansa says in his book 'kriya yoga' that tantra somehow turned out to be the most misunderstood (and even abused) of all vedic texts, with westerners and new-age claimants even coining a term like tantra-sex.

Am wondering abt Krishna's origin - was it orissa or gujrat?

Shri HH

I think its called as Rasa Lila.Only Krishna exists and nothing else.Prolly Bhakthi Yoga margam.Meera Bai was supposed to have vanished or merged into the diety of Krishna,her devotion was so intense "mei marandu poi ninaal".I guess such calibre of devotees was even rare in those ancient era's.

Shakthi & Shivam or Sri & Narayana or Saraswathi & Brahmaa - its always the dual power,which propels.

Because our earth ( Bhu-LOka ) has a motion our ancients named the Bhu-Devi Shakthi.Similiarly for the rest of the celestial objects,they gave a form,mudra,weapons,vahana...et al

sb

[PekHyvac]

i asked a guide from srirangam why so mnay inscriptions in the temple there were in telugu and and he said that from his experiance he noticed that 'teluguvari ki vishnu priyam...just as shiva is dear to the tamils'....KRS-ji's posting reminds me of that...but i thot that Krishna was from Gujarat (??)...all very interesting..finally leads us to the 'ekam satya vipra...' statement.

Shri HH

When you visit Tirumala Venkatachalapathy Temple,you will notice on the walls,on the steps...lots of writings inscribed in Tamil.But the Tamil writing pattern is slightly different than what was taught to us in schools.I think they call it Grantha Tamil or Vattala Ezhuth Tamil....maybe scholars here can throw further light on this.

I remember some people even saying,the Temple itself was part of Madras Presidency and TN got Palani..or some other temples..some controversy is there,i am sure of it..dunno the exact details...interestingly D H A R M A S when annagrammed becomes M A D H R A S ..

sb

[U2DnBGFE]

Shri HH

When you visit Tirumala Venkatachalapathy Temple,you will notice on the walls,on the steps...lots of writings inscribed in Tamil.But the Tamil writing pattern is slightly different than what was taught to us in schools.I think they call it Grantha Tamil or Vattala Ezhuth Tamil....maybe scholars here can throw further light on this.

I remember some people even saying,the Temple itself was part of Madras Presidency and TN got Palani..or some other temples..some controversy is there,i am sure of it..dunno the exact details...interestingly D H A R M A S when annagrammed becomes M A D H R A S ..

sb

hi sb.
Namaskarams,
i studied in Tirupati very long time back . many speak and understand
tamil.In temple its called grantham. It was with Madras presidency
and Andhra Pradesh was formed... Thirupati went to Andhra and
Thiruttani got Tamil nadu... due to aarupadai veedu/ tamizh kadavul.
this info may be correct. i came to know through some ppl in Thirupati.

Regards
tbs

[Hujkmlopes]

Part of the worship is done in Tamil in Thirupathi. The system of worship at Thirupathi is supposed to be done according to the rules laid down by Ramanujacharya. During Subrabhatam Mangalasasanam in Tamil is recited. I have attended all the Sevas sitting in the Garbagraha. My Telugu friend who is from Tirupathi and who has been coming to the temple from childhood was surprised when I pointed this out to him.

http://balaji.sudarshana.org/tirupati-sevas-pujas.htm

The Tamil inscriptions in Thirupathi is because of the long association of the Tamil Kings and the SriVaishnavas with the temple. The Telugu inscriptions in Srirangam is because of the long rule of Telugu kings in Tamil Nadu.

There is a temple called Simhachalam near Vizhakapatnam. Yoga Narasimha temple. The murti is covered with chandan during the entire year. The legend is that it is because of the power of the deity. It is removed only on one day in year. It is on top of a hill.

The reason I am quoting this is that all the inscriptions in that temple are in Oriya. Most of the pilgrims are also from Orissa. Now recently the Devastanam has covered all the inscriptions.

Thirupathi devastanam has not allowed any research scholar to go through all the inscriptions because it may prove the official history as wrong. Ramanujacharya's taking over the Thirupathi temple was one of the foundations of SriVaishnavism. It is said that it was a Devi temple earlier. Only selected inscriptions have been read. The same case with Simhachalam and many other temples in India. The Padmanabhaswamy temple in Trivandrum was constructed by a Nayak King from Madurai when it was part of Pandya Nadu. But you will not find this in the official history. The present managements/state administration does not want you to know the history.

Then who wants to know the real history in India?

[Accecyncphory]

wowwww!!!!!!!!! Sri-N-ji....am awestruck......

please can you post more on such temples...on their true history...its soooo interesting...

yes am aware of the prayers in tamil in tirumala....was just recounting out a guide's observation...

[MartZubok]

The problem with our temples is that the devotee does not want to know the history of the temple. He/She does not want to know about who has constructed it, when it was constructed and so on. We have Sthala Puranas which is a figment of wild imagination. But what is surprising/shocking is that Hindus believe in all that poppycock stories. I do not know whether to laugh or cry at the guilliblity of the devout Hindus some of who may even have doctorates in other subjects.

To take a couple of examples. They tell you that Guru and Vayu were involved inthe evolution of the Guruvayur temple. People believe that. The fact is that even 50 yaers back Guruvayur was a small and not well known temple. The nearby Mammiyur Siva temple is a big temple which is historically known.

Some years back some people erected a temple on the outskirts of Chennai and claimed that this is the place where all the 18 Siddhas of Tamil Nadu came together.

The surprising fact is that this guilliblity is peculiar to South India especially Tamil Nadu. And Tamil Brahmins will believe any Sthala Purana. The only such Sthala Purana which is current in Eastern/North India is about Sakthi Peeths. This was originally written in a Purana composed in Eastern india. So no temple in Western or south India is mentioned. This shows the ignorance of the author of the Purana. BTW historians have been able to identify the date and the place of origin of many of the later Puranas.

[Hmntezmb]

Sri N-ji, am amazed at the stories we are able to churn out...birds speaking, man incarnating as a horse, and what not.....what imaginations we have..am dumbstruck at one group that came out not only with a cock and bull story about a man springing out of fire - but for good measure, in one account they even had a donkey jumping out of fire..God bless Indians.

[PRengine]

See this thread

Mythology.

Mythology

[tipokotap]

Sri N-ji, am amazed at the stories we are able to churn out...birds speaking, man incarnating as a horse, and what not.....what imaginations we have..am dumbstruck at one group that came out not only with a cock and bull story about a man springing out of fire - but for good measure, in one account they even had a donkey jumping out of fire..God bless Indians.

Shri H H

When i was a young boy,i remember telling my dad,that Shri Hanuman was born between the sperm of the man and that of a egg of monkey.My father flew into such a rage,for my impertinence,and only when my mother butted in,did my father calm down.My father was never an orthodox brahmin,but that day i knew adults do all these acting outside one way and inside thay are different.

But Purans depict entirely different about Shri Hanuman,and to do prayachittam for my utterances,i went and got a picture blessed by Mahaswamigal of Shri Hanuman,and for 48 days ie one mandala,i did pooja.The day i completed my mandala,both my older sisters marriages were fixed simultaneously,and that too under my watch,when my dad got transferred to Hyderabad.

My point,Shri Hanuman,is so powerful and one with lots of Shraddha & Saburi prays to him,Shri Hanuman miracles happen.Even today,when i think about it,especially in my adverse Shanieswaran orbit,i feel so relieved.

sb

[Suvuseh]

Talking about temples did you know that Kamakshi Amman temple in Kanchipuram was a Jain temple. A lot of research has been done and the inscriptions in the temple has been deciphered.

See this article which will debunk most of the common perceptions about this temple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamakshi_Amman_Temple

[moopogyOvenny]

Talking about temples did you know that Kamakshi Amman temple in Kanchipuram was a Jain temple. A lot of research has been done and the inscriptions in the temple has been deciphered.

See this article which will debunk most of the common perceptions about this temple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamakshi_Amman_Temple

Shri Nacchinarkiniyan

I remember Mahaswamigal telling my father to visit his poorvigam taluka ..areas..regions...and how the Jains have taken over things which originally belonged to Tamil Brahmins.Arooran Sugars owner Shri Mahalingam also said the same,and said,your land is somewhere out there,but now its all merged into one big huge acreage.If you have documents to show me where your land is,i will gladly let you take it or give you a fair price prevailing market rate.I hear his son Manickam afellow Boat Club rower is doing an awesome job of managing his inherited conglomerate.

Anyway,my point is,Bharatham was/is a melting pot culture,despite having got looted beyond any reasonable doubt,the civilisation grows with a new nomenclature and country called as India today.

Every temple,Mosque,Church...of ancient era will have a admixture of various religions,depending upon who conqured when and who is in power today.Every one and everything can be manipulated to suit,vested interests of the time.But the truth is still out there!!

sb



P.S.Wikipedia is an open source,anybody can edit,anytime,anyplace.So,i guess now it appears like Jain,tomorrow it may be Buddhist and later on it was all the Sanathana Dharma of the Advaitha school of doctrine...etc

[TheDoctor]

Wikipedia is not that bad. We do not allow that kind of edits. Sources have to be quoted. Please click on the references and see. This article has stood uncontested for the last 2 years.

Thirunavukkarasar or Appar was persecuted by the Jains. There was struggle between Jains and Shaivas at that time. Smartas were non existent at that time.

Clickon the link Discussions on the top of the Wiki page. You will see the discussions. You check out the article on Iyers. There was so much fight. People fight over even a single word. It is a jungle. We have a number of Tamil Brahmins. Nothing goes unchallenged. Sometimes you wonder whether it is worth it.

[SergeyMaikov]

Wikipedia is not that bad. We do not allow that kind of edits. Sources have to be quoted. Please click on the references and see. This article has stood uncontested for the last 2 years.

Thirunavukkarasar or Appar was persecuted by the Jains. There was struggle between Jains and Shaivas at that time. Smartas were non existent at that time.

Clickon the link Discussions on the top of the Wiki page. You will see the discussions. You check out the article on Iyers. There was so much fight. People fight over even a single word. It is a jungle. We have a number of Tamil Brahmins. Nothing goes unchallenged. Sometimes you wonder whether it is worth it.

Things should be churned.Debates should be encouraged.Different view points should be allowed.In a nutshell,everything is fine as all are needed.Each one of us are unique.By birth,we had no choice because of society.But some desired to change society ways and means.A leader is born.A Puthu Mugam is born.So be it.

Wikipedia has not attained scholarship testament.But for now,i guess you are right.

sb

[Dilangos]

You want to be shocked? Then come to the Tripura Sundari temple in Agartala, Tripura. The state is named after her. They sacrifice goats and buffaloes here. I am giving a link to an internet article. It is obviously written by a South Indian who has never heard of Tantra. Has never heard of Shodasi Vidya or the Shodasakshari (16 lettered) Mantra. He/She has never heard of the Dasa Maha Vidyas. He/She calls Shodasi a local name and Tripura Sundari a South Indian Goddess. But then that is what most of the South Indians think. There is also a Bhuvaneswari temple here.

I am giving this link because it is the only one mentioning the sacrifices. This is a govt. run temple where the collector was ordered to make 6 goats and 1 buffalo for sacrifice every day. I do not know whether the order is still in force.

You want to know Hinduism. Know India first. Such tall claims like Lalita Tripurasundari is a south Indian Goddess does not make any sense. Sri Ramakrishna is reported to have had a vision of Maa Lalita Tripurasundari. But then he was a Kali Bhaktha. MAA is the same by whatever name you call her.

Like we say Hariyum Sivanum Onnu, Ariyadhavar vayil mannu.

http://www.indiainfoweb.com/tripura/pilgrimage/

[yqpY4iw6]

Sacrifices were/are of various nature.Even human sacrifices were conducted by our ancients all over the world.To be Bharatham specific,using human sacrifice as a tool,one religion even proselytises,with an icon????Guess who???

Ignorance is bliss,so said the wise ones.

sb

[Nifoziyfar]

>>Tripura Sundari

[DesautocaD]

[quote]>>Tripura Sundari

[Klavalala]

thnx shri subramaniam,bhayangara enjoyment

sb