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11-13-2007, 07:11 PM
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#21 |
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Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji, From my own experience and also the writings of many Saints, I find that Bhakthi Marga is the easiest path to Salvation. BTW Ramana Maharishi's teachings have given raise to a separate group of followers who are Pure Advaitins. Their definition of Advaita Vedanta is Advaita Vedanta is a school of philosophy that argues that Truth, or Brahman, is the only thing that is real in this world. Since, mathematically speaking, there can be only one truth, and not two, the adjective 'advaita', meaning 'not two' is used. Vedanta refers to the 'anta', or the end, or summary, of the Vedas, the highly regarded treasurehouse of spiritual knowledge emanating from India. You can a list of their sites here. http://dmoz.org/Society/Religion_and...vaita_Vedanta/ |
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11-14-2007, 04:15 AM
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#22 |
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Dear Sri KRS,
Thank you for your clarification. Sri Ramaa I hope this clears things up. Regards, Chintana Dear Sowbhagyavathi Chinatana Ji, |
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11-14-2007, 04:55 AM
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#23 |
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Now back to Bhakti. Everyone knows about Bhakti and so what is new about it?
Bhakti or devotion is as old as humanity since it is a human feeling. Bhakti could be Mathru Bhakti Pithru Bhakti Guru Bhakti Raja Bhakti and so on. We will be talking about Bhakti as a means of salvation. Only Bhakti towards God. This does not mean that the other kinds of Bhakti are not important, or they do not lead to Mukti. They are all important, but I will be posting mostly about Devotion to God. We have all experienced Bhakti. We pray to many Gods/Goddesses. Many of us believe in praying to a particular deity for a particular benefit. For example Lakshmi for wealth, Saraswati for education and so on. These prayers for Karya siddhi. There is no doubt that these play a important role in our early life and later on also. But to attain salvation we have to go beyond this. |
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11-14-2007, 01:24 PM
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#24 |
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Sow Chintanaji,
You are quite a logician! I salute you! Regards, |
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11-14-2007, 01:55 PM
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#25 |
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Thank you. I do what I can.
Regards, Chintana Sow Chintanaji, |
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11-14-2007, 02:03 PM
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#26 |
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Aum
यद्भक्त्या पुण्डरीकाक्षं स्तवैरर्चेन्नरः सदा ॥ १४ ॥ परमं यो महत्तेजः परमं यो महत्तपः । परमं यो महद्ब्रह्म परमं यः परायणम् ॥ १५ ॥ पवित्राणां पवित्रं यो मङ्गलानां च मङ्गलम् । दैवतं दैवतानां च भूतानां योऽव्ययः पिता ॥ १६ Yad bhaktya pundarikaaksham Sthavairarcchenara: sadaa|| 13 Paramam yO mahatteja: paramam yO mahatthapa: | Paramam yO mahadhbrahma paramam ya: paraayaNam || 14 PavithraaNaam Pavithram yO mangalaanaam cha mangalam | Dhaivatham devathaanam cha bhoothanaam yOvya: pithaa || |
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11-14-2007, 05:32 PM
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#27 |
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Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji,
Thank you for respoding to my question about Gnana Marga above. Now I have a question about this posting: These other kinds of Bhakthis towards mortals, such as the four you cite - what is the responsibility of such a Bhaktha when they see adharma on the part of those so venerated. If one witnesses, for example one's father killing a person, what should the person do. To bring it to more ordinary human terms, if my parents ill treat my wife for example, what should be my course of action? Pranams, KRS Now back to Bhakti. Everyone knows about Bhakti and so what is new about it? |
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11-14-2007, 06:05 PM
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#28 |
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Before starting a Puja we pray to the following Devatas among others.
1. Ganesha 2. Siva 3. Vishnu 4. Matha and Pitha 5. Ishta Devata (Chosen Deity) 6. Kula Devata (Family Deity) 7. Grama Devata (village deity) 8. Vasthu Devata (household Deity) 9. Sthana Devata (established Deity) Of course the number and name will depend on the tradition (sampradhaya). Now with our worshipping so many Deities the question arises as to whom do we approach for salvation? Before we go into this we should recall how Hinduism deals with the worship of so many Deities. The basic principle of Hinduism is the acceptance of all paths as leading to God. Hinduism has grown by absorbing the hundreds of forms of worship prevalent in India. You will find the term "Sanskirtising" used (not in a good sense) on many sites. This is a process by which Hinduism absorbed the different faiths into mainstream Hinduism. Hinduism does not believe in prosyletising but in absorption. Though many believe that Hinduism is polytheistic it is not exactly true. It is Henotheism to use the proper term. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism So any Deity Siva, Vishnu, Amman, Mariamman, Isakki, Raja Karuppannaswamy or others can lead you to salvation. God is omniscient and omnipotent. When you are reciting Vishnu Sahasaranama - Vishnu is GOD. Lalita Sahasranama - Lalita is GOD. Siva Mahimna Stotra - Siva is GOD. Ganapathy Atharvaseersham - Ganapathy is GOD Skandha Sashti kavacham - Skandha is GOD. The term Ishta Deavata plays a very important role in Bhakti. We worship many Deities. But almost all of us have a favorite deity. We hear people say "sambo Mahadeva" "Krishna Hridhaya kamalavasa", "Muruga Shanmuga" etc. Invariably when you are in danger you appeal to your favorite deity. The same deity will lead to you Mukti. More about Ishta Devata later. |
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11-14-2007, 07:21 PM
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#29 |
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Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji, The duty towards one's parents or even Guru for that matter does not include assisting in the commitment of Anyaya or standing by in silence. Here I would go by the common definition of Nyaya. There are two ways of dealing with the specific problem quoted by you. 1. Object to the ill treatment of your wife and protect her from it. At the same time talk to your parents and if there is any fault of your wife which has led to such a situation, warn her also. This is my way. Makes one unpopular both with the parents and wife. 2. Protect the wife, but support the parents in front of the wife. And then tell her in private that the parents are all wrong. Makes one popular with both parties. In my opinion not a honest way of doing it. Bhakti for anyone who is born as a human being suffers from this defect because no human being is perfect. |
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11-15-2007, 06:28 PM
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#30 |
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When we read about great Bhaktas we will find that though they worshipped many Deities, they had a particular deity whom they were close to. Sri Ramakrishna was primarily a Kali Bhakta though he worshipped Siva and Krishna also. Saint Thiagaraja was a Rama Bhakta even though he did worship and composed songs to Siva also.
Concentrated worship requires a point of concentration. Single minded devotion has to have a specific object. This point or object of concentration is the Ishta Devata. Ishta Devata means not only a particular Deity but also the specific form. There is a misunderstanding that the concept of Ishta Devata applies to Smartas only. This is not correct. It applies to Saktas, Vaishnavas and Saivas also. This requires a bit of an explanation. Suppose you choose Sakti as your Ishta Devata. But which form of Sakti? Kali, Bhuvaneswari, Lalita, Mariamman or any of the other innumerable forms? When you choose Vishnu, is it Rama, Krishna or Narayana and even after choosing Krishna is it Balakrishna (Unnikrishnan), Brindavan Krishna (Radhe Shyam) or Dwarakadhisa (Krishna as a King)? You have a huge variety of choices. The concept of Ishta Devata plays an important role in Mantra Yogs/Sadhana. The guru is expected to help you find your Ishta Devata and then initiate you the Mantra most suitable for you. The question often asked is "How do I find my Ishta Devata". I have posted about this in many forums. I am giving below a link to an article about choosing the Ishta Devata. Though this is basically meant for a western audience it is one of the best. http://www.apath.org/ishtadevata.html Quoting such a source in Brahmins site may look a bit odd to say the least. My apologies in advance to those who may feel bad about this. But what we are after is knowledge irrespective of the sources. As Rig Veda says: आनो भद्रः क्रितवो यन्तु विश्वतः “Let noble thoughts come to us from everywhere.” |
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11-16-2007, 06:55 PM
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#31 |
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Now we have some idea of the concept of Ishta Devata.
While choosing our Ishta Devata we have to clear some of our ideas about God. 1. There is a tendency to categorize Deities ad Sattvic, Rajasaic, and Tamasic and again as Soumya and Ugra. But these categorizations according to the Gunas does not apply to the Supreme God as GOD is above the three Gunas. We call MAA as Thrigunathmikai. GOD is omnipotent and omniscient. This categorizations depend on our Vasanas. For example Maa Kali is seen by most of the Tamil Brahmins as Ugra whereas in Bengal she is seen as the Universal Mother. Most of the Tamil Brahmins who are in Bengal see her as Karunamoyi, Dayamoyi and Anandamoyi. In Tamil Nadu Maa Kali is worshipped by many communities. In fact the Tamils are the only community in India where a Male is named Kali or Kaliappan. These are based on our own conceptions/misconceptions and not on facts. The Devatas are conceptions of Rishis/Enlightened people. The sculptural details of Murtis are from Dhyana slokas. The Dyana sloka is written by a person who has attained Mukti through the particular dhyana. It is the conception of the person who has done the Dhyana. Recently I has seen an English movie with a Girl called Mary as the heroine. GOD appears in that. The hero asks him whether he is GOD. GOD replies that "I am Mary's conception of GOD." Since for a Bhakta, Ishta Devata is GOD, there is no question of any categorization. The Bhakta conceives GOD. 2. Many people believe that the Bhakta will acquire the characteristic of his/her Ishta Devata. This again is a fallacy. To quote an example Sri Ramakrishna was a Kali Bhakta. But he was very Sattvic in nature. 3. GOD does not have the human emotions like anger, jealousy, etc. Nor does GOD show any partiality towards any caste, creed, race, or gender. GOD is beyond all that. GOD treats everyone alike. Bhaktas, non-believers, sinners. GOD burns up all your karma and gives you Mukti. By doing good karma we make it easier for GOD to do that. Of course we Bhaktas would like to believe that GOD is partial to us and we can please GOD. We pray Stotra Priyayai and Studhi Priyayai. We also pray Gudanna Priyayai. I am sure this was written by a person who considered Ney payasam to be a great delicacy. More than this many of us believe that GOD is waiting to punish us. We talk about putting the fear of GOD into someone. This again is a fallacy. There is a story in the Purana about a thief plucking Bilva leaves on Sivaratri night to keeep awake and dropping them in a Sivalinga about which he was not aware. He attains Moksha. GOD is love, compassion, happiness (Daya, Karuna, Ananda) personified. GOD is waiting for an opportunity to reward you for your good actions. We needed the concept of a punishing GOD when we did not have any formal judicial system. Again this belongs to the Mimasa philosophy of Karma Kanda. There is no place for this concept in Bhakti. Suddham, Madi and Acharam are not important in Bhakti. Iswara Chinthai is what counts. |
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11-16-2007, 10:00 PM
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#32 |
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Friends,
Shri Narsi Mehta, the poet Saint of Gujarat has given the essence of our Dharma in his famous poem "Vaishnava Janato.." which will make any of us proud to be a true "Vaishnava".Also, I consider this a the guide for becoming good human being first. I give below the translation of the same in English. Call that person a Vaishnava, who feels the suffering of others. Who seeks to relieve the pain in others. He has no pride in his mind. A Vaishnava tolerates and praises the entire world. Does not say bad things about any one. Keeps His words, Actions and thoughts pure. O. Vaishnava, Your mother is blessed. A Vaishnava sees every thing equally, rejects greed and avarice. Considers all women as his mother. The tongue may get tired but will never speak untruth. Will never touch some one else weath. He remains unaffected by Moha and Maya. His soul is in total detachment. Who has been adicted to the elixer of Ram Nam. Within his body all thirthas are found. Who has no greed and deciet. Who has renounced all types of lust and anger. Says Narsiyyo, by mere sight of such a Sant, Seventy two generations find salvation. Many a time I used to wonder why our School text books do not include this wonderful teachings in the books for children to study. How wonderful our life will be , if we are able to follow this simple words of Shri Narsi Mehta. Regards, Brahmanyan. |
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11-17-2007, 06:24 PM
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#33 |
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Every individual conceives GOD in his/her own way. You ask a six year old child about how it thinks GOD is like. Most probably it will be a super image of its own mother. Your conception depends on your upbringing, tendencies, notions and what not.
Just to quote some examples. We all know that Lord Krishna is called Shyam because of his colour. You could call it Mega varna, but still he was not fair in color. But you find many images specially in North India which show him as fair. In most TV serials also he is fair. Why? Because of our deep rooted color prejudice. Again he is always clean shaved. How come the only two kings in India who were clean shaved are Rama and Krishna? Siva is also clean shaved. You call him Smasana Vasa and Jadadhari. Why do we associate a clean shave with Sattva and a moustache with non Sattva. In which case all our seers were not Sattvic. Again Maa Kali's description in Dhyana Slokas is totally different from what is depicted. In Bengal she is seen as a Beautiful young woman. This is not the description of the Dhyana sloka. Bhadra Kali is considered by many South Indians to be a benign form of Kali. They will be shocked if they read the Dhyana Sloka. It is of absolutely no consequence how GOD is represented. The question is "Are you able to relate to GOD in this form? " Once I had shown the image of MAA from one of the temples in Tamil Nadu dressed in Madisar saree to a friend of my mine who is a Devi bhakta from Kerala. He immediately remarked that he is not able to relate to her in this dress. Many South Indian visitors to temples in North and Eastern India are not able to relate because of the peculiarity of the images. The Bengalis in Chennai prefer to visit the Kali temple in Mambalam rather than the temple in Annanagar, because the image in Mambalam is Bengali style. The examples are Lord Jagannadha of Puri and Maa Kali of Kalighat. Both these images are unique. Both these images surprise the visitors from outside. Your conception of GOD will depend on what you think of GOD. As a 1. King 2. Mother 3. Child 4. Lover These are called Bhavas. More about Bhavas later. |
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11-18-2007, 06:05 PM
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#34 |
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We were discussing Bhavas or feelings towards GOD.
First we will take the case of Bhakti when you treat GOD as the almighty emperor of the Universe. This is a very common attitude toward GOD. This is the basis of our Pujas. We always talk about Raja Upacharam. Our Shodaupachara and other upachara methods are based on this concept. It is not that you do not show Upacharam to your mother. But that is not formal. Pujas are always excellent for achieving salvation. Even when you treat GOD as your mother, it is better to do daily Pujas. Pujas help you concentrate your devotion. Single pointed devotion is the aim of all our rituals. Puja is a great help for all Bhaktas. As you progress in your Sadhana you replace the actual Puja with manasic (mental) Puja. The main difference between treating GOD as a King and other Bhavas, is that here it is more formal. Supposing you have to visit the Prime Minister or the Prime Minister is visiting your house. There are many formalities associated with such visits. Code of conduct in the presence of the King. All these protocols are required for a King. So you hear of suddham, madi, acharam here. Those of us who have come in contact with Sri Vidya Upasakas would know that they are very particular about these. That is because they are worshippers of MAA as Rajarajeswari. Of course I do agree that this is rather a very simplistic explanation. Again our temple worship is also mostly based as treating GOD as the almighty emperor. In north Indian temples it is based more on Mathru/Pithru bhava. That is why the worship is very informal. You might have noticed that men and women perform Abisheka to Sivalinga in all North Indian temples. There Siva is considered the a GOD who gives boons easily and is all forgiving. Even in famous temples like Kedarnath and Kasi Viswanath you can touch the Sivalinga. But you are not allowed to do that in Bhadrinath. This again emphasizes the point of our conception of GOD and attitude toward him/her. |
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11-19-2007, 06:24 PM
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#35 |
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We were talking about the concept of GOD as all forgiving and compassionate. The Bhava of conceiving of GOD as Emperor has the disadvantage of punishment for transgressions. So this kind of worship has a number of rules of dos and do nots.
Mathru Bhava Of all the Bhavas of Bhakti the most popular in Mathru Bhava or conceiving GOD as our own mother. This is the easiest of the Bhavas since as often said "for young children Mother is GOD." We are entirely dependent on our human mother when we are very young. This Bhava also is entirely independent of the form of the mother. To achieve this we should think of ourselves as a new born baby in the mother's arms. Does a new born know or care whether the mother is young or old, beautiful or ugly, rich or poor, empress or beggar? Mother is Mother that is all. Later when we talk about the concept Saranagathi, this is the attitude one should develop. That of a new born to its Mother. Ramprasad Sen the famous Bengali poet goes even further. In one of his poems, he asks MAA to treat him like a premature baby. An article on GOD as Mother found on the net. http://www.mother-god.com/god-as-mother.html |
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11-20-2007, 05:57 PM
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#36 |
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One of the principal concepts of Bhakti is Saranagatha or Saranagathi. This concept is applicable irrespective of the Deity you worship. Basically it means total surrender. I was talking earlier about the attitude of a new born to its Mother. It is totally dependent on her and surrenders absolutely.
This is an attitude which should be developed by all Bhaktas. To quote Sri Ramakrishna from the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna. There are two classes of devotees. One class has the nature of the kitten. The kitten depends completely on its mother. It accepts whatever its mother does for it. The kitten only cries, "Mew, mew!" It does not know what to do or where to go. Sometimes the mother puts the kitten near the hearth, sometimes on the bed. Devotees of this class give God the power of attorney and thus become free of all worry. Devotees of this class have an unwavering conviction that God is our Mother and our Father. There is another class of Devotees. They have the nature of the young monkey. The young monkey clings to its mother with might and main. The devotees who behave like the young monkey have a slight idea of being the doer. They feel: "We must go to the sacred places, we must practice japa and austerity; we must perform worship with sixteen articles as prescribed in the sastras. Only then shall we be able to realize God." Such is their attitude. The aspirants of both classes are devotees of God. The further you advance, the more you will realize that God alone has become everything. He alone does everything. He alone is Guru and He alone is Ishta. He alone gives knowledge and devotion. These two classes are called Marjariya and Markata. Most of us belong to the second class of Devotees. But we wish to progress to the kitten class of devotees. That means surrender to the grace of GOD. |
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11-20-2007, 07:35 PM
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#37 |
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Dear Nachinarkeniyan !
Are you the same one who posted a thread on " Harmfull effect of varna .... " to which I've replied today? Please reply. with mitra malgova.mango |
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11-20-2007, 07:49 PM
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#38 |
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Dear Nachinarkeniyan ! First of all I would like to make it clear that I am not following the rules of any of the four Vadhams. (debates). My posts are only for information and make the reader think. |
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11-21-2007, 03:46 AM
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#39 |
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Dear malgova.mango,
Sorry for my untimely interruption , but I felt the need for it ! On Friendly terms , let me clear a few of your views on expressing views and opinions , in the relevant threads. There is a dearth of ' Good poster's' who ' Add value ' to the forum ! So please don't shoo anyone away by hitting them straight , As said more often in so many threads by the Admin , " Aim the message or the post , not the poster !!" On the other hand , you shall be much more appreciated if your spend your time clarifying your opinion / in a satvic manner ! I suppose " Controlling Temper " should be a versatile Quality of the Brahmin , may it be as per the varna system or from the hear say ! Let us keep the windows of the Brain OPEN , to listen to what the other's have to say and anyway , it is upto the individual to practice what ever he feels like ! A democratic world !! Dear Nachinarkeniyan ! |
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11-21-2007, 05:43 AM
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#40 |
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An information is different from an opinion. Information is that which does not belong to the poster but the opinion is that of the poster.
When one's opinion is questioned, he has two options: One is, he comes back to defend it; the other is, he concedes that the opinion is wrong. There seems to be a third variety which is to claim that the opinion is an information and thus neither defend it nor concede it when questioned! It is up to the moderators to set the rules. Also by way of caution people who post their opinion should be honest enough to stick to it instead of going back and editing it to avoid conceding that the views were wrong. If I were the moderator I would remove the edit button. If you have to change it just post another giving the change. There is honesty and decency in it! This is only a caution that is not directed against any one. If cautioning is wrong I request the moderator to remove this posting of mine. |
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