Argumentative Muslims --> APOSTASY!! - DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate

**MrGunjMan_** · 07-31-2012, 01:15 AM

Something I have been thinking about lately, especially seeing the anger, arguing and rigid behaviour in threads on this forum...please brothers and sisters, stay away from arguing and take care of your fellow brothers and sisters soul. Islam will endure, but not every Muslim will die a Muslim, so take care of them.

Here are Abdullah bin Hamid Ali's words on this topic. For those who want to read more on this can add him on Facebook.

There was a time when it was unheard of for a Muslim to leave Islam for any reason. I remember those days like they were yesterday. This is when things were a whole lot simpler, when people focused on the basics of human necessity and brotherhood. Over the past few years, I, personally, know of three cases of people leaving Islam. One became a Buddhist. Another became an Atheist. And the third was a good friend of mine who accepted Islam almost 2 decades ago who refuses to answer my phone calls to help me understand what happened with him. But when I reflect on all three of these people, there is one consistent thread. Each of them was extreme in their understanding in that they felt it necessary to be affiliated with some "elite" group of Muslims, and held tenaciously to the group's dogma. They loved to argue about religion more than using it to repair broken souls even though they claimed to be giving people pure water to drink. Instead of blaming Islam for not being able to find the nourishment they felt they couldn't get, they should blame their own temperaments. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said, "People are misled after God has guided them as a consequence of their obsession with disputation."

ما ضل قوم بعد أن هداهم الله إلا أوتوا الجدل In that same thread...on one sister's leaving Islam...

From her vantage point, there are not a whole lot of people nor are there a sufficient number of mosques there with people whose company would provide people like her with the kind of spiritual support she needed/needs. She would only find herself in the presence of a lot of people who consider deen to be all about religious debate and hairsplitting, a focus on superficiality, and judgmental behavior. I'm not saying I support her decision. I'm just saying that I can understand it especially since she had enough negative experiences with being judged growing up even when she trying to learn about Islam. In particular case, she and my other sister were barred from coming to one family's home, because they didn't wear the hijab.

**AblemTee** · 07-31-2012, 02:13 AM

JazakAllah khayran for the reminder. A few days ago, I noticed a comment to one Youtube video from someone who identified themselves as a convert to Islam along the lines in OP. And, just yesterday I watched an interview with 2 sisters who accepted Islam later in life and how, had they not had the strength to keep going, they could have left Islam not because of argumentations but because of a sudden push from everyone and a sense of burden to change everything about their lives - habits they've formed over 20-30 years - everything all of a sudden becoming 'haram'; the sisters talk about how difficult it was for them and how eventually they stopped listening to people and demanded proof that what they were doing was wrong (which could lead to arguments).

It isn't just converts but born Muslims too. We have to remember (this goes for me first, before anyone else... I'm terrible about this) that we're all at different stages of development and that we follow different schools of jurisprudence so some differences are inevitable.

I must apologize here to all Muslim brothers and sisters I may have engaged in unnecessary arguments with, jeopardizing our bonds of sisterhood and brotherhood, and jeopardizing our faith.

JazakAllah khayran brother.

**DoctorDulitlBest** · 07-31-2012, 02:55 AM

This is quite an issue, i personally believe that whoever has Imaan in himself will try to refrain from arguing with a muslim in such a manner that can jeopardise his Imaan...I, too, am horrible at this in real life, we need to keep the egos in check...May Allah allow us all to die in the best state of Faith, amaal, and character..

**sportbos** · 07-31-2012, 03:48 AM

Thank you for removing the reply finger pointing people by name. It was in bad form.

**lapyignipinge** · 07-31-2012, 08:02 PM

this thread is spot on

teh question is, will you act uopn it and remember it, or just mull over it for a few minutes and then go back to square one?

The ummah is in a terrible mess and the sooner we have a long hard rethink about how we are behaving, the sooner we can change the way we are doing things and save this ummah from its current terrible situation

Im being honest, my experience uopn coming into islam has been terrible and sometimes I dispair and think I will never forgive the muslims for the situation they have created for themselves and the new reverts

**mylittlejewelaa** · 07-31-2012, 08:37 PM

''people who consider deen to be all about religious debate and hairsplitting, a focus on superficiality, and judgmental behavior.''

This describes this forum to the T.

**Virosponna** · 07-31-2012, 08:43 PM

I must say that the main reason behind the wave of apostasy is hidden in our own approach towards Islam. The Muslim thought has been decaying since the last five centuries at least and Islam from a practical social doctrine has turned into a superstitious religion in which some charlatans have been given the authority to lead the Ummah and preserve the "tradition". Except for few , the Ummah is a mental slave and they just keep on defending what "my akaabir" say. Ever since the 9/11 the world has been turning into a global level on a massive speed. The present shape of our religious understanding is too fragile to cope with the challenges of the time and we are not ready to change a bit from "our akaabir".

**Caunnysup** · 08-01-2012, 12:22 AM

There have always been apostates. May be the quantity has now increased...generally people want to be part of a successful club, If Muslims appear to be in trouble all the time and they do not have any victories they will lose people. Individually as well people burn out...they get into religion get too hot, and a few years down the line they are burnt out, they did not nourish their own soul and got into religious arguments about who is right and who is deviated. I think we are living through confused times with many dislocated and disenchanted people living through the turbulence of modernity, alienation, cultural nihilism and globalization..people search for something and fail to internalize the deeper spiritual values of Ihsan.

**Ayyfjicg** · 08-01-2012, 12:59 AM

There have always been apostates. May be the quantity has now increased...generally people want to be part of a successful club, If Muslims appear to be in trouble all the time and they do not have any victories they will lose people. Individually as well people burn out...they get into religion get too hot, and a few years down the line they are burnt out, they did not nourish their own soul and got into religious arguments about who is right and who is deviated. I think we are living through confused times with many dislocated and disenchanted people living through the turbulence of modernity, alienation, cultural nihilism and globalization..people search for something and fail to internalize the deeper spiritual values of Ihsan.

You couldn't have said it better.

**Mr_White** · 08-01-2012, 10:09 AM

There have always been apostates. May be the quantity has now increased...generally people want to be part of a successful club, If Muslims appear to be in trouble all the time and they do not have any victories they will lose people. Individually as well people burn out...they get into religion get too hot, and a few years down the line they are burnt out, they did not nourish their own soul and got into religious arguments about who is right and who is deviated. I think we are living through confused times with many dislocated and disenchanted people living through the turbulence of modernity, alienation, cultural nihilism and globalization..people search for something and fail to internalize the deeper spiritual values of Ihsan.

Great post......concise and to the point....

**ronaldasten** · 08-01-2012, 10:11 AM

''people who consider deen to be all about religious debate and hairsplitting, a focus on superficiality, and judgmental behavior.''

This describes this forum to the T.

True on many levels sister......

**gactanync** · 08-01-2012, 02:00 PM

Not all arguments are negative . There will always be ' Ikhtilaf ' . It is natural for humans .
If I remember correctly as scholars say there are Ikhtilaf e Majmum ( disagreement that are complete fitnah )

and what is called Ikhtilaf e Mahmud ... Arguments which are described as something that is not by nature dividing the Ummah but some groups have made them source of Fitnah by their own misunderstanding / lack of knowledge.
Example senseless arguments between Madhabs or more apparent in our time the opposition to Madhab by Ahle Hadis / Ghair Muqalleds / La madhabi

Got me interested to go back and see the reference source for more Info ...

Something peculiar in the Muslim world when it comes to arguments .

We argue on things that really do not have much significance , example there are people who argue on the smallest things like how long your beard should be ...

Where as when is comes to arguing against someone who is in effect changing the very nature of Islamic shariah as we exist and live our lives in this century... Example Ahle hadis or even going against Tawhid , example Qadiyani and shia people go all touchy and call for Unity of Ummah .

The latter case to my knowledge demands that you argue from fear of Allah.
You think we will not be asked what you said in defense of what you know as true ?
Being silent for sake of Unity will be a valid excuse?

**texbrease** · 08-01-2012, 02:08 PM

Not all arguments are negative . There will always be ' Ikhtilaf ' . It is natural for humans .
If I remember correctly as scholars say there are Ikhtilaf e Majmum ( disagreement that are complete fitnah )

and what is called Ikhtilaf e Mahmud ... Arguments which are described as something that is not by nature dividing the Ummah but some groups have made them source of Fitnah by their own misunderstanding / lack of knowledge.
Example senseless arguments between Madhabs or more apparent in our time the opposition to Madhab by Ahle Hadis / Ghair Muqalleds / La madhabi

Got me interested to go back and see the reference source for more Info ...

Something peculiar in the Muslim world when it comes to arguments .

We argue on things that really do not have much significance , example there are people who argue on the smallest things like how long your beard should be ...

Where as when is comes to arguing against someone who is in effect changing the very nature of Islamic shariah as we exist and live our lives in this century... Example Ahle hadis or even going against Tawhid , example Qadiyani and shia people go all touchy and call for Unity of Ummah .

The latter case to my knowledge demands that you argue from fear of Allah.
You think we will not be asked what you said in defense of what you know as true ?
Being silent for sake of Unity will be a valid excuse?

**chuecaloversvv** · 08-07-2012, 01:43 PM

How come none of the tough talking SFers never commented on this thread?

**ppaelkos** · 08-07-2012, 02:35 PM

How come none of the tough talking SFers never commented on this thread?

You are talking about a situation where utmost kindness and tenderness is needed so tough talking will be the least productive option.

**tsovimnpb** · 08-07-2012, 11:37 PM

Something I have been thinking about lately, especially seeing the anger, arguing and rigid behaviour in threads on this forum...please brothers and sisters, stay away from arguing and take care of your fellow brothers and sisters soul. Islam will endure, but not every Muslim will die a Muslim, so take care of them.

Here are Abdullah bin Hamid Ali's words on this topic. For those who want to read more on this can add him on Facebook.

In that same thread...on one sister's leaving Islam...

I largely blame Salafism (the new Islam) for all this... These people have forced people into debate and have made masjid an unpleasant place to visit. You would rather spend time study other things in the religion, but these people (salafis) force you to study things which Allah will not question you about, like, Does Allah have a hand literally or not.. And other non-sense... Only whenn you are able to defend yourself do they (salafis) leave you alone. I unfortunately know 3 people who left Islam, two of them studied overseas...

**imawlBoli** · 08-08-2012, 02:27 AM

A lot of arguments at the local level (as opposed to the scholarly level) revolves around people justifying their batil actions in the light of permissibility of those actions in Islam.
Every once in a while an influential scholar will get through to them, bluntly of otherwise. Regardless, the scene repeats itself months or years later.

**Eromaveabeara** · 08-08-2012, 02:38 AM

How come none of the tough talking SFers never commented on this thread?

I'm not tough talking (i hope) - but reading this thread is just sad and I don't feel I can contribute, so I stay silent.

**Dvjkefdw** · 08-08-2012, 02:46 AM

A lot of arguments at the local level (as opposed to the scholarly level) revolves around people justifying their batil actions in the light of permissibility of those actions in Islam.
Every once in a while an influential scholar will get through to them, bluntly of otherwise. Regardless, the scene repeats itself months or years later.

The reason we have arguments whether justified or not... it is because we are trying to correct people... That is the root reason people have arguments...
One person believes they are right and the other person is wrong... And many times our correcting people runs people away from Islam... But sometimes we just have to accept people as they are and stop trying to make the world perfect... I have not met anyone who is protected from error....

I don't know where you draw the line... when do you let a person be and when do you correct them??? How do we enjoin the right and forbid the wrong??? I don't know... But I do know, We will not be saved because of our good deeds.... but through Allah's mercy... Ibn Rajab al Hanbali has a nice commentary on this hadith....

What is the solution??? I don't know...

Perhaps we should do less correcting with our tongues and more correcting by being an example... And perhaps by your state who you are, the person who is wrong will want to be like you.... Because talk is cheap.... No one likes to listen to someone who talks the talk but cannot walk the walk...

**jenilopaz** · 08-08-2012, 02:51 AM

a sister on SF mentioned this very real reason for apostasy and also explained the underlying reason. here is a reconstruction:

"a very common reason also is argumentation.when your whole islamic experience is about refutation, arguing, brawls etc. then your islamic education becomes a tool to know more than others and your time is devoted to knowing more than others. your salah gets ruined and you slip away slowly into apostasy. if anyone suffers from this and is reading this: it is time to stop. leave it to the scholars who can balance this work and their ibadah."

this isnt specific just to salafis. salafis are of many types. this can happen in madhabis too. it can happen to anybody.that being said i never recommend becoming a salafi of any type so please go figure : )

07-31-2012, 01:15 AM	#1
MrGunjMan_ Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 470 Senior Member	Argumentative Muslims --> APOSTASY!! Something I have been thinking about lately, especially seeing the anger, arguing and rigid behaviour in threads on this forum...please brothers and sisters, stay away from arguing and take care of your fellow brothers and sisters soul. Islam will endure, but not every Muslim will die a Muslim, so take care of them. Here are Abdullah bin Hamid Ali's words on this topic. For those who want to read more on this can add him on Facebook. There was a time when it was unheard of for a Muslim to leave Islam for any reason. I remember those days like they were yesterday. This is when things were a whole lot simpler, when people focused on the basics of human necessity and brotherhood. Over the past few years, I, personally, know of three cases of people leaving Islam. One became a Buddhist. Another became an Atheist. And the third was a good friend of mine who accepted Islam almost 2 decades ago who refuses to answer my phone calls to help me understand what happened with him. But when I reflect on all three of these people, there is one consistent thread. Each of them was extreme in their understanding in that they felt it necessary to be affiliated with some "elite" group of Muslims, and held tenaciously to the group's dogma. They loved to argue about religion more than using it to repair broken souls even though they claimed to be giving people pure water to drink. Instead of blaming Islam for not being able to find the nourishment they felt they couldn't get, they should blame their own temperaments. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said, "People are misled after God has guided them as a consequence of their obsession with disputation." ما ضل قوم بعد أن هداهم الله إلا أوتوا الجدل In that same thread...on one sister's leaving Islam... From her vantage point, there are not a whole lot of people nor are there a sufficient number of mosques there with people whose company would provide people like her with the kind of spiritual support she needed/needs. She would only find herself in the presence of a lot of people who consider deen to be all about religious debate and hairsplitting, a focus on superficiality, and judgmental behavior. I'm not saying I support her decision. I'm just saying that I can understand it especially since she had enough negative experiences with being judged growing up even when she trying to learn about Islam. In particular case, she and my other sister were barred from coming to one family's home, because they didn't wear the hijab. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-31-2012, 02:13 AM	#2
AblemTee Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 448 Senior Member	JazakAllah khayran for the reminder. A few days ago, I noticed a comment to one Youtube video from someone who identified themselves as a convert to Islam along the lines in OP. And, just yesterday I watched an interview with 2 sisters who accepted Islam later in life and how, had they not had the strength to keep going, they could have left Islam not because of argumentations but because of a sudden push from everyone and a sense of burden to change everything about their lives - habits they've formed over 20-30 years - everything all of a sudden becoming 'haram'; the sisters talk about how difficult it was for them and how eventually they stopped listening to people and demanded proof that what they were doing was wrong (which could lead to arguments). It isn't just converts but born Muslims too. We have to remember (this goes for me first, before anyone else... I'm terrible about this) that we're all at different stages of development and that we follow different schools of jurisprudence so some differences are inevitable. I must apologize here to all Muslim brothers and sisters I may have engaged in unnecessary arguments with, jeopardizing our bonds of sisterhood and brotherhood, and jeopardizing our faith. JazakAllah khayran brother. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-31-2012, 02:55 AM	#3
DoctorDulitlBest Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 683 Senior Member	This is quite an issue, i personally believe that whoever has Imaan in himself will try to refrain from arguing with a muslim in such a manner that can jeopardise his Imaan...I, too, am horrible at this in real life, we need to keep the egos in check...May Allah allow us all to die in the best state of Faith, amaal, and character.. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-31-2012, 03:48 AM	#4
sportbos Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 471 Senior Member	Thank you for removing the reply finger pointing people by name. It was in bad form. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-31-2012, 08:02 PM	#5
lapyignipinge Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 576 Senior Member	this thread is spot on teh question is, will you act uopn it and remember it, or just mull over it for a few minutes and then go back to square one? The ummah is in a terrible mess and the sooner we have a long hard rethink about how we are behaving, the sooner we can change the way we are doing things and save this ummah from its current terrible situation Im being honest, my experience uopn coming into islam has been terrible and sometimes I dispair and think I will never forgive the muslims for the situation they have created for themselves and the new reverts Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-31-2012, 08:37 PM	#6
mylittlejewelaa Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 605 Senior Member	''people who consider deen to be all about religious debate and hairsplitting, a focus on superficiality, and judgmental behavior.'' This describes this forum to the T. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

07-31-2012, 08:43 PM	#7
Virosponna Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 459 Senior Member	I must say that the main reason behind the wave of apostasy is hidden in our own approach towards Islam. The Muslim thought has been decaying since the last five centuries at least and Islam from a practical social doctrine has turned into a superstitious religion in which some charlatans have been given the authority to lead the Ummah and preserve the "tradition". Except for few , the Ummah is a mental slave and they just keep on defending what "my akaabir" say. Ever since the 9/11 the world has been turning into a global level on a massive speed. The present shape of our religious understanding is too fragile to cope with the challenges of the time and we are not ready to change a bit from "our akaabir". Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

08-01-2012, 12:22 AM	#8
Caunnysup Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 470 Senior Member	There have always been apostates. May be the quantity has now increased...generally people want to be part of a successful club, If Muslims appear to be in trouble all the time and they do not have any victories they will lose people. Individually as well people burn out...they get into religion get too hot, and a few years down the line they are burnt out, they did not nourish their own soul and got into religious arguments about who is right and who is deviated. I think we are living through confused times with many dislocated and disenchanted people living through the turbulence of modernity, alienation, cultural nihilism and globalization..people search for something and fail to internalize the deeper spiritual values of Ihsan. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

08-01-2012, 12:59 AM	#9
Ayyfjicg Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 432 Senior Member	There have always been apostates. May be the quantity has now increased...generally people want to be part of a successful club, If Muslims appear to be in trouble all the time and they do not have any victories they will lose people. Individually as well people burn out...they get into religion get too hot, and a few years down the line they are burnt out, they did not nourish their own soul and got into religious arguments about who is right and who is deviated. I think we are living through confused times with many dislocated and disenchanted people living through the turbulence of modernity, alienation, cultural nihilism and globalization..people search for something and fail to internalize the deeper spiritual values of Ihsan. You couldn't have said it better. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

08-01-2012, 10:09 AM	#10
Mr_White Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 594 Senior Member	There have always been apostates. May be the quantity has now increased...generally people want to be part of a successful club, If Muslims appear to be in trouble all the time and they do not have any victories they will lose people. Individually as well people burn out...they get into religion get too hot, and a few years down the line they are burnt out, they did not nourish their own soul and got into religious arguments about who is right and who is deviated. I think we are living through confused times with many dislocated and disenchanted people living through the turbulence of modernity, alienation, cultural nihilism and globalization..people search for something and fail to internalize the deeper spiritual values of Ihsan. Great post......concise and to the point.... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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08-01-2012, 10:11 AM	#11
ronaldasten Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 629 Senior Member	''people who consider deen to be all about religious debate and hairsplitting, a focus on superficiality, and judgmental behavior.'' This describes this forum to the T. True on many levels sister...... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

08-01-2012, 02:00 PM	#12
gactanync Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 413 Senior Member	Not all arguments are negative . There will always be ' Ikhtilaf ' . It is natural for humans . If I remember correctly as scholars say there are Ikhtilaf e Majmum ( disagreement that are complete fitnah ) and what is called Ikhtilaf e Mahmud ... Arguments which are described as something that is not by nature dividing the Ummah but some groups have made them source of Fitnah by their own misunderstanding / lack of knowledge. Example senseless arguments between Madhabs or more apparent in our time the opposition to Madhab by Ahle Hadis / Ghair Muqalleds / La madhabi Got me interested to go back and see the reference source for more Info ... Something peculiar in the Muslim world when it comes to arguments . We argue on things that really do not have much significance , example there are people who argue on the smallest things like how long your beard should be ... Where as when is comes to arguing against someone who is in effect changing the very nature of Islamic shariah as we exist and live our lives in this century... Example Ahle hadis or even going against Tawhid , example Qadiyani and shia people go all touchy and call for Unity of Ummah . The latter case to my knowledge demands that you argue from fear of Allah. You think we will not be asked what you said in defense of what you know as true ? Being silent for sake of Unity will be a valid excuse? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

08-01-2012, 02:08 PM	#13
texbrease Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 465 Senior Member	Not all arguments are negative . There will always be ' Ikhtilaf ' . It is natural for humans . If I remember correctly as scholars say there are Ikhtilaf e Majmum ( disagreement that are complete fitnah ) and what is called Ikhtilaf e Mahmud ... Arguments which are described as something that is not by nature dividing the Ummah but some groups have made them source of Fitnah by their own misunderstanding / lack of knowledge. Example senseless arguments between Madhabs or more apparent in our time the opposition to Madhab by Ahle Hadis / Ghair Muqalleds / La madhabi Got me interested to go back and see the reference source for more Info ... Something peculiar in the Muslim world when it comes to arguments . We argue on things that really do not have much significance , example there are people who argue on the smallest things like how long your beard should be ... Where as when is comes to arguing against someone who is in effect changing the very nature of Islamic shariah as we exist and live our lives in this century... Example Ahle hadis or even going against Tawhid , example Qadiyani and shia people go all touchy and call for Unity of Ummah . The latter case to my knowledge demands that you argue from fear of Allah. You think we will not be asked what you said in defense of what you know as true ? Being silent for sake of Unity will be a valid excuse? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

08-07-2012, 01:43 PM	#14
chuecaloversvv Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 499 Senior Member	How come none of the tough talking SFers never commented on this thread? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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08-07-2012, 02:35 PM	#15
ppaelkos Join Date Oct 2005 Location Canada Posts 379 Senior Member	How come none of the tough talking SFers never commented on this thread? You are talking about a situation where utmost kindness and tenderness is needed so tough talking will be the least productive option. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)

08-07-2012, 11:37 PM	#16
tsovimnpb Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 529 Senior Member	Something I have been thinking about lately, especially seeing the anger, arguing and rigid behaviour in threads on this forum...please brothers and sisters, stay away from arguing and take care of your fellow brothers and sisters soul. Islam will endure, but not every Muslim will die a Muslim, so take care of them. Here are Abdullah bin Hamid Ali's words on this topic. For those who want to read more on this can add him on Facebook. In that same thread...on one sister's leaving Islam... I largely blame Salafism (the new Islam) for all this... These people have forced people into debate and have made masjid an unpleasant place to visit. You would rather spend time study other things in the religion, but these people (salafis) force you to study things which Allah will not question you about, like, Does Allah have a hand literally or not.. And other non-sense... Only whenn you are able to defend yourself do they (salafis) leave you alone. I unfortunately know 3 people who left Islam, two of them studied overseas... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

08-08-2012, 02:27 AM	#17
imawlBoli Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 528 Senior Member	A lot of arguments at the local level (as opposed to the scholarly level) revolves around people justifying their batil actions in the light of permissibility of those actions in Islam. Every once in a while an influential scholar will get through to them, bluntly of otherwise. Regardless, the scene repeats itself months or years later. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

08-08-2012, 02:38 AM	#18
Eromaveabeara Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 510 Senior Member	How come none of the tough talking SFers never commented on this thread? I'm not tough talking (i hope) - but reading this thread is just sad and I don't feel I can contribute, so I stay silent. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

08-08-2012, 02:46 AM	#19
Dvjkefdw Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 521 Senior Member	A lot of arguments at the local level (as opposed to the scholarly level) revolves around people justifying their batil actions in the light of permissibility of those actions in Islam. Every once in a while an influential scholar will get through to them, bluntly of otherwise. Regardless, the scene repeats itself months or years later. The reason we have arguments whether justified or not... it is because we are trying to correct people... That is the root reason people have arguments... One person believes they are right and the other person is wrong... And many times our correcting people runs people away from Islam... But sometimes we just have to accept people as they are and stop trying to make the world perfect... I have not met anyone who is protected from error.... I don't know where you draw the line... when do you let a person be and when do you correct them??? How do we enjoin the right and forbid the wrong??? I don't know... But I do know, We will not be saved because of our good deeds.... but through Allah's mercy... Ibn Rajab al Hanbali has a nice commentary on this hadith.... What is the solution??? I don't know... Perhaps we should do less correcting with our tongues and more correcting by being an example... And perhaps by your state who you are, the person who is wrong will want to be like you.... Because talk is cheap.... No one likes to listen to someone who talks the talk but cannot walk the walk... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

08-08-2012, 02:51 AM	#20
jenilopaz Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 399 Senior Member	a sister on SF mentioned this very real reason for apostasy and also explained the underlying reason. here is a reconstruction: "a very common reason also is argumentation.when your whole islamic experience is about refutation, arguing, brawls etc. then your islamic education becomes a tool to know more than others and your time is devoted to knowing more than others. your salah gets ruined and you slip away slowly into apostasy. if anyone suffers from this and is reading this: it is time to stop. leave it to the scholars who can balance this work and their ibadah." this isnt specific just to salafis. salafis are of many types. this can happen in madhabis too. it can happen to anybody.that being said i never recommend becoming a salafi of any type so please go figure : ) Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote