[Ndptbudd]

[QUOTE=KeepTheGazeDown;376960]

Bro, I don't think so. I think this comes under the category of things that are all Halal until proven otherwise. What do you think of the Qur'an being written in all kinds of different styles throughout the centuries.

QUOTE]



1) Interesting statatement you make, quotes from our illusturious fuqaha would be appreciated. Hence, you are saying that if there is meat infront of me which I am not certain about than I can eat it on the basis you state?.

2) As for different styles of writing quran and grafiti, dont you think its ibvious that there is a major difference between them? It seems obvious to me, however, just to clarify

- Grafiti is well known as a kuffaric concept
- it is related to the immoral concept of hiphop

You're not understanding the context in which i meant this, of course in this case, the meat is doubtful, so it should be left. However, in the case of graffiti art, what is inherently bad about it?

[PaulRyansew]

I do not know the position on this and will await mufti saheb;s view about it but for discussion sake..

The usool I learnt from Mufti Ebrahim Saheb is "Al Aslu fi Ashyaa' Alibaha Illa fil Lahm"

The discussion can be found in Nurul Anwar in which the comparison is made with Imam Shafii r.a whose usool is oposite that Aslu fi ashyaa' hurmah. But I will check this again.. perhaps I am mistaken



Would that not be dependent on the urf of the place you are in. If the brother is in an area now where it is no longer attributed to kuffar rather a form of "art" as its definition also suggest, then how will it be restricted to the culture of kuffar.

The example sudoku gave was billboards, which are ALSO used for similar concept and are a salient feature of the corporate culture. In that we have accepted umoomul bulwa, then why can we not accept in this case?



Again, it will first depend on the urf of the place. Graffiti is used in many places as a form of psychiatric treatment to supress violent tendencies, initiate expressive behaviour for the mentally depressed etc. This is just like doodling in you notebook.

Yes a primary reason of graffiti being notorious is that initially it was attributed to hip hop and also illegal. However, is that still the case?

@True Life

Why would you not consider it graffiti? If someone in Pakistan did draw a graffiti on his wall, would we not consider it graffiti simply because Pakistan does not have a hip hop culture?

Also if writing statements on the wall is not considered graffiti, then graffiti is only that which attaches to the hip hop culture. And by that token what the brother is doing in the link is not graffiti. I think it would be better to first lay down the definition of graffiti. We wont understand thing based on our own thinkings etc.

What is the legal definition of graffiti? Can anyone please post it and lets see if ALL forms of graffiti will be impermissible and whether what the brother is doing actually falls under the definition as well or not.? If i remember correctly, anything drawn, scratched out onto a wall is graffiti.

1) Fair enough ill check it up in Nurul Anwar.

2) As for urf, Im my opinion it does not hold here simply because as we know hiphop culture is globalised hence the argument of urf really does not make sense.

I am taking a small portion from wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti

Modern Garffiti: Graffiti is often seen as having become intertwined with hip hop culture and the myriad of international styles derived from New York City Subway graffiti (see below). However, there are many other instances of notable graffiti this century.

3) As for where we draw the line, we can say as long the respect of the ayaat of the quran is at the forefront as well as not being correlated with such immoral culture than it should be fine.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best.

[DoterForeva]

3) As for where we draw the line, we can say as long the respect of the ayaat of the quran is at the forefront as well as not being correlated with such immoral culture than it should be fine.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best.

the discussion, in my view was not about ayaat rather about islamic messages. a few posters in this thread have said that ayaat would be disrespectful.. it is about messages.

if you hold to the argument of tashabuh then it doesnt matter what they draw...

[WaydayFep]

the discussion, in my view was not about ayaat rather about islamic messages. a few posters in this thread have said that ayaat would be disrespectful.. it is about messages.

if you hold to the argument of tashabuh then it doesnt matter what they draw...

1) My primary point about it being a 'disgrace' is painting the ayat.

2) As for other things it would be undesirable.

[boffincash]

heres the 10mins newsnight clip

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ht/8012054.stm

[johnsonjunior]

1) Fair enough ill check it up in Nurul Anwar.


and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best.

I checked it up . Maktaba Rasheediya, Pg 197 under the overlined ibarah "Kal Hadhir Wal mabeeh" and look at hashiya number 10 and more importantly hashiya 16. I have it highlighted in my text.

[ASSESTYTEAH]

I am taking a small portion from wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti

Modern Garffiti: Graffiti is often seen as having become intertwined with hip hop culture and the myriad of international styles derived from New York City Subway graffiti (see below). However, there are many other instances of notable graffiti this century.

3) As for where we draw the line, we can say as long the respect of the ayaat of the quran is at the forefront as well as not being correlated with such immoral culture than it should be fine. At the same page:

The term graffiti referred to the inscriptions, figure drawings, etc., found on the walls of ancient sepulchers or ruins, as in the Catacombs of Rome or at Pompeii. Usage of the word has evolved to include any graphics applied to surfaces in a manner that constitutes vandalism.

The only known source of the Safaitic language, a form of proto-Arabic, is from graffiti: inscriptions scratched on to the surface of rocks and boulders in the predominantly basalt desert of southern Syria, eastern Jordan and northern Saudi Arabia. Safaitic dates from the 1st century B.C. to the 4th century A.D..

The first known example of "modern style" graffiti survives in the ancient Greek city of Ephesus (in modern-day Turkey). Local guides say it is an advertisement for prostitution. Located near a mosaic and stone walkway, the graffiti shows a handprint that vaguely resembles a heart, along with a footprint and a number. This is believed to indicate that a brothel was nearby, with the handprint symbolizing payment.[2]

[icerrelmCam]

At the same page:

The term graffiti referred to the inscriptions, figure drawings, etc., found on the walls of ancient sepulchers or ruins, as in the Catacombs of Rome or at Pompeii. Usage of the word has evolved to include any graphics applied to surfaces in a manner that constitutes vandalism.

The only known source of the Safaitic language, a form of proto-Arabic, is from graffiti: inscriptions scratched on to the surface of rocks and boulders in the predominantly basalt desert of southern Syria, eastern Jordan and northern Saudi Arabia. Safaitic dates from the 1st century B.C. to the 4th century A.D..

The first known example of "modern style" graffiti survives in the ancient Greek city of Ephesus (in modern-day Turkey). Local guides say it is an advertisement for prostitution. Located near a mosaic and stone walkway, the graffiti shows a handprint that vaguely resembles a heart, along with a footprint and a number. This is believed to indicate that a brothel was nearby, with the handprint symbolizing payment.[2]

We have to consider what graffiti is correlated with at this point in time, hence after reading this passage it was obvious it has no correlation to current times thus in no need of mention.

[vforvandetta]

@True Life

Why would you not consider it graffiti? If someone in Pakistan did draw a graffiti on his wall, would we not consider it graffiti simply because Pakistan does not have a hip hop culture?

Also if writing statements on the wall is not considered graffiti, then graffiti is only that which attaches to the hip hop culture. And by that token what the brother is doing in the link is not graffiti. I think it would be better to first lay down the definition of graffiti. We wont understand thing based on our own thinkings etc.

What is the legal definition of graffiti? Can anyone please post it and lets see if ALL forms of graffiti will be impermissible and whether what the brother is doing actually falls under the definition as well or not.? If i remember correctly, anything drawn, scratched out onto a wall is graffiti.

The difference for me is the style of the writing, what he is doing resembles the art, which is part of the hiphop culture. Now, the writings on walls in Pakistan is just simple writing and comes not even close to any culture, matter of fact you could call it Pakistani culture. lol

I'm not concluding anything and I don't think any scholar will give a verdict against graffiti. But I myself wouldn't do participate in anything like that because of the before mentioned two concerns. Wallahu 'Alam.

[ceagstuntee]

Well when I looked up graffiti in several dictionaries, the most common meaning was illegally writing/spray-painting/scratching etc words on a public wall. If we take that meaning, and the person making the 'graffiti' actually had permission to use the wall in the first place, then it would no longer be considered graffiti but a wall painting, wouldn't it?

As for the actual style of the writing, I don't see any problem with that, it's just like using different text styles to type. Or is it about that style being on the wall that's the problem?

I will still agree from refraining from using Quran ayaat and the name of Allah because of the human disrespect it may cause.

[Goalseexere]

The concern about Quranic ayaat is legitimate. But to go to say that graffiti is impermissible and imitating the kuffar is totally batil, unless we are ready to give alot of other things the same treatment. Problem is that most people have no idea of the Islamic fiqhi concepts, nor do they have any idea about what graffiti is, and it's co-relation to other artistic expressions. And it's therefore highly irresponsible to claim that it's impermissible etc.

[ZAtlLVos]

Asslamo Allaikum,

In broad terms, the person is doing “Calligraphy” on a medium (external walls) which was not done by past Muslims…rather Muslims usually did Calligraphy” on internal walls and roofs and you can see this in Muslim architecture around the world.

If writing verses of the Qur’aan is disrespectful on external walls then what is the verdict of these verses on internal walls & roofs on Mosques and buildings around the world?

[Qvqnubpj]

If writing verses of the Qur’aan is disrespectful on external walls then what is the verdict of these verses on internal walls & roofs on Mosques and buildings around the world?

Well, a Masjid shouldn't be disrespected in the first place, no matter if with Qur'anic Ayahs on its walls or not.

[Barbshowers]

Well, a Masjid shouldn't be disrespected in the first place, no matter if with Qur'anic Ayahs on its walls or not.

Muslims regularly employed verses on buildings other then Masjids?

Alhambra Palace? Sheesh Mahal? Taj Mahal?

And on objects like daggers and bottles and glasses etc.

[feseEscaple]

I think the reason why an external wall is more prone to be disrespected is because it's outside, where everyone, Muslim and non-Muslims, animals, forces of nature etc are. Like I mentioned before, I don't think rain or dust would be too much of a factor. What I think is the most concern would be non-Muslim disrespecting the word of Allah. It's a known fact all over the world that people spit, urinate, and drink while leaning against a wall, among other things.

A person has control over who does what in their own homes, shops, and for the most part, the masjid is usually only visited by Muslims, who will of course not disrespect the ayaat of the Quran. Historical buildings like mentioned are supervised, and it pretty rare to have a Quran decorated building just around the corner. As for objects like daggers etc, these are usually for decoration, aren't they?

[Xiciljed]

I think the reason why an external wall is more prone to be disrespected is because it's outside, where everyone, Muslim and non-Muslims, animals, forces of nature etc are. Like I mentioned before, I don't think rain or dust would be too much of a factor. What I think is the most concern would be non-Muslim disrespecting the word of Allah. It's a known fact all over the world that people spit, urinate, and drink while leaning against a wall, among other things.

A person has control over who does what in their own homes, shops, and for the most part, the masjid is usually only visited by Muslims, who will of course not disrespect the ayaat of the Quran. Historical buildings like mentioned are supervised, and it pretty rare to have a Quran decorated building just around the corner. As for objects like daggers etc, these are usually for decoration, aren't they?

Respected Sister in Islam,

For years I swallowed the line and logic of writing "786" instead of Bismillah because the letter (on which Bismillah) is to be written could fall in the hands of Kuffar UNTIL I saw the letters written by Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) and saw Bismillah and Kalimah right at the the top and as you would know that Khusro tore the Mubarak letter of Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) e.g. a Kaafir (a Mushrik and not even Ahlul-Kitab) was allowed to touch it.

Non-Muslims were employed during Islamic Caliphate and they walked around palaces (where Qur'aanic verses were inscribed), handled communication and quipment and as a matter of fact I have seen with my own eyes in Istanbul gifts sent to the Khalifah by "Non-Muslims (Chinese in this case) " with Qur'anic inscriptions.

But in Birmingham I can see that someone may actually urinate on top of these walls out of sheer hatred of Islam and Muslims.

[snislarne]

For years I swallowed the line and logic of writing "786" instead of Bismillah because the letter (on which Bismillah) is to be written could fall in the hands of Kuffar UNTIL I saw the letters written by Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) and saw Bismillah and Kalimah right at the the top and as you would know that Khusro tore the Mubarak letter of Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) e.g. a Kaafir (a Mushrik and not even Ahlul-Kitab) was allowed to touch it.

I remember listening the Tafsir of the Basmalah by Maulana eTeacher... Well, he said that if someone fears a letter would get disrespected he could as well just recite the Basmalah before starting to write the letter. So, I guess the concern is not that baseless as it may seem to you. [Although I don't like the "786" idea, stick to what our former Amir prescribed ]

[Bobdilan]

Respected Sister in Islam,

For years I swallowed the line and logic of writing "786" instead of Bismillah because the letter (on which Bismillah) is to be written could fall in the hands of Kuffar UNTIL I saw the letters written by Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) and saw Bismillah and Kalimah right at the the top and as you would know that Khusro tore the Mubarak letter of Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) e.g. a Kaafir (a Mushrik and not even Ahlul-Kitab) was allowed to touch it.

Non-Muslims were employed during Islamic Caliphate and they walked around palaces (where Qur'aanic verses were inscribed), handled communication and quipment and as a matter of fact I have seen with my own eyes in Istanbul gifts sent to the Khalifah by "Non-Muslims (Chinese in this case) " with Qur'anic inscriptions.

But in Birmingham I can see that someone may actually urinate on top of these walls out of sheer hatred of Islam and Muslims.

Well Khosroe did get his due jaza for what he did after all, !

I was even thinking that if it wasn't so low and near the ground there shouldn't be too much of a problem because it would be out of reach. You hear of people doing the weirdest things though (like you mention about Birmingham, and I can probably say the same for places in South Africa), which is why I think actual Quran ayaat should not be painted but rather their translations if they must, as the translation is not the actual word of Allah.

Still waiting for a reply to the question I sent though

[duminyricky]

This is definitely an interesting discussion and I'm looking forward to the answer we receive from askimam.com. We want to be careful not to label something as haram simply because it is from a different culture. Islam does not prohibit someone from leaving their old culture behind in ALL areas when they revert as Islam spreads.

When we are being careful to not imitate the kuffar, it is so we remain distinct and do not fall to Shaytan by trying to hide our Islam or making the same mistakes they did. There is nothing wrong with doing something they do in our own way.... like graffiti. The way he is doing it remains distinct. Trust me, illegal graffiti doesn't normally carry messages like this. Alhamdulilah, he is bringing a positive message to the masses.

Again, I look forward to the response from askimam.com as I do not have the knowledge to say whether putting ayat from the Qur'an on external buildings is halal.

[97dYA9L3]

Respected Sister in Islam,

For years I swallowed the line and logic of writing "786" instead of Bismillah because the letter (on which Bismillah) is to be written could fall in the hands of Kuffar UNTIL I saw the letters written by Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) and saw Bismillah and Kalimah right at the the top and as you would know that Khusro tore the Mubarak letter of Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) e.g. a Kaafir (a Mushrik and not even Ahlul-Kitab) was allowed to touch it.

Non-Muslims were employed during Islamic Caliphate and they walked around palaces (where Qur'aanic verses were inscribed), handled communication and quipment and as a matter of fact I have seen with my own eyes in Istanbul gifts sent to the Khalifah by "Non-Muslims (Chinese in this case) " with Qur'anic inscriptions.

But in Birmingham I can see that someone may actually urinate on top of these walls out of sheer hatred of Islam and Muslims.

Here's an article on the subject of 786. At the bottom there is a fatwa of
Mufti Ebrahim Desai Saheb as well.

http://members.tripod.com/maseeh1/advices7/id152.htm