[Klissineopar]

yes, you could have read that page without me having to do so. as I said several times, go look it up.

brother you personally have put me off Sunniforum.

may you enjoy your time on here.

Brother , i did not intend to hurt you. But i must say that what you said in the defense of Hamza Yusuf was so much far fetched that i had to take a hard tone. Secondly , you accused some scholars of taking the lahori jamaat as Muslims without knowing and i consider it a super allegation. Anyways , its ramadan and i am sorry if i have hurt you.

[ZwHRoTTn]

Dr Israr Ahmed Rahimahullah views on Lahori Jamaat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLn6K...eature=related

Dr Israr ra Alhamdulilah says that anyone who thinks that Ghulam Ahmad Qadyani was a Muslim , let alone saying that he was a Mujadid, is outside the fold of Islam and is a Kafir.

Did you listen to it brother AbdurRaheem? Dr Israr ra has by name classified the Lahori Jamaat outside the fold of Islam. I think now you should retract your statement as i have given you a clear proof.

[aceriscoolon]

for the responses. Please try and keep this discussion calm. There are no Qadiani/Ahmadiyya on this website, so don't be harsh with your fellow brothers out of anger for an absent sect. Its Ramadan, not jihad time.

A quick google search revealed that both the quotations have been copy pasted from the website of Lahori Jamaa't. http://ahmadiyya.org/movement/maudoodi/letter.htm

And if they quote sahih hadith on their website...would you doubt those hadith too? Have sabr, inshallah someone will provide the proofs you are asking for.

Regarding the Lahori Muhammad Ali, I doubt Deedat would need to rely on his works since refutations of Christianity have been around for centuries- many Muslims studied and refuted the Bible including the likes of Ibn Taymiyyah. Not to mention Christian works regarding things like textual criticism, higher criticism etc have been around for centuries also so refutations of Christianity is nothing new

I recall reading the book that Ahmed Deedat used to back up his work that I think he cites in one of his books, and the preface mentioned the Ahmadiyya. This was a very long time ago, but I remember speaking to some brothers about it and they kind of brushed it off. I can dig around and see if I can find it again. Of course, books have been written on Christian refutation for centuries but this one in particular is from Muhammad Ali and utilized by Ahmed Deedat, which raises some questions.

[FliveGell]

Did you listen to it brother AbdurRaheem? Dr Israr ra has by name classified the Lahori Jamaat outside the fold of Islam.

yes, obviously he has changed his views since 1966, anyway Salaams and best wishes brother.

[Kimaamighed]

Assalamu alykum

I stopped listing to Brother Hamza Yusuf about 8 yrs ago.

[Evoryboypoto]

for the responses. Please try and keep this discussion calm. There are no Qadiani/Ahmadiyya on this website, so don't be harsh with your fellow brothers out of anger for an absent sect. Its Ramadan, not jihad time.



And if they quote sahih hadith on their website...would you doubt those hadith too? Have sabr, inshallah someone will provide the proofs you are asking for.



I recall reading the book that Ahmed Deedat used to back up his work that I think he cites in one of his books, and the preface mentioned the Ahmadiyya. This was a very long time ago, but I remember speaking to some brothers about it and they kind of brushed it off. I can dig around and see if I can find it again. Of course, books have been written on Christian refutation for centuries but this one in particular is from Muhammad Ali and utilized by Ahmed Deedat, which raises some questions.

The website of the lahori Jamaat has not quoted a Hadith but have quoted something which supports their ideology so it is justified to doubt it. I have given a proof about Dr Israr rahimahullah and i am sure that they have lied about Maulana Maududi ra as well. It was Maulana Maududi ra who was punished to hanging by the government in the anti-qadyani movement. Why on earth will he consider the Lahori group to be Muslim? I will wait till you provide an clear reference for the allegation which was leveled against Maulana Maududi and Maulana Abdul Majid Daryabai. The stance of Dr Israr ra has been clarified.

[WoCTrt0X]

Akhi, I don't know. That is why I created this thread.

But have sabr, inshallah someone can show whether this has been discussed thoroughly. I would like to point out that Hamza Yusuf talk is probably from his Aqida Tahawiyya class, so I would not be ready to doubt Imam at-Tahawi (rahimullah).

[Glanteeignile]

yes, obviously he has changed his views since 1966, anyway Salaams and best wishes brother.

Even if Dr Israr ra changed his views , then why quote his old stance brother?

[occafeVes]

Brother , i did not intend to hurt you. But i must say that what you said in the defense of Hamza Yusuf was so much far fetched that i had to take a hard tone. Secondly , you accused some scholars of taking the lahori jamaat as Muslims without knowing and i consider it a super allegation. Anyways , its ramadan and i am sorry if i have hurt you.

anyway brother I didn't mean you

[Broker15015]

Even if Dr Israr ra changed his views , then why quote his old stance brother?

I didn't say there weren't liars, I said some people held that they are not kaffirs because that is what I believed.

anyway salaams all I have had enough of such discussions.

[PZXjoe]

Never mind, Ahmed Deedat used Izharul Haqq. Perhaps Muhammad Ali also used that book. Allahu Alaam.

[Siuchingach]

Never mind, Ahmed Deedat used Izharul Haqq. Perhaps Muhammad Ali also used that book. Allahu Alaam.

Hit the nail on the head.

I would simply look at this from this picture; if it is established Mirza Ghulam Shaythan al-Qadiani (La'anatullah 'Alayhi) made those claims i.e. Prophethood, Messiah, Mahdi etc (and it is absolutely substantiated and there is Sunni Ijma' for even Sh. Hamza wouldn't deny), then for the Lahoriyyah to deny this (that their Mirza Ghulam Shaythan al-Qadiyani said such things) - then they too also will be Kafir.

It's like a group of followers that were following Musaylimah al-Kazzab (La'anatullah 'Alayhi) came out saying he never said such things (claimant of Nubuwwah) and said he was a "Saint" / "Mujaddid", when it was established that he did, it is useless and for those to deny his Kufr would have detrimental effect on their Imaan.

Hopefully i worded it properly but the issue is plain and simple, Mirza is Kafir (because of his utterances) and it is established that he said such words, to further deny it and think of him as a saint and reformer is nothing but to take a Shaytan as a Wali. To deny someone's (established) kufr is kufr.

Wallahu A'lam