[easypokergonj]

Brother Ahmed has posted a beautiful thread regarding the topic here: http://www.muftisays.com/forums/peop...5/debates.html




At the beginning of the reply in differences of the ummat by Maulana Yusuf Ludhianvi Shaheed has wrote

http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/diffumm.pdf



Quote
The interest and enthusiasm shown by yourself and your companions is praiseworthy and congratulatory. However, my advice is that you change this interest of yours from discussions and debates to learning and teaching Deen.

Devote your time and energies to the practical implementation of the Deen. You should make an effort to adopt the lifestyle of our beloved Nabi (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam) and likewise turn the attention of others in that direction.

This suggestion of mine is based on two reasons. Discussions and debates hamper the ability of a person to carry out (good) actions. It is reported in Musnad-e-Ahmad, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah and Mustadrak Haakim that
Rasulullaah (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam) said:
“That nation is not led astray after the guidance has been brought to them, except when they are given to arguments.”

Hence no good abodes for that nation that indulges in arguments and debates. Another point is that by having too many discussions and debates, generally, people‟s enthusiasm to understand is plagued, and they are more desirous of having their views and opinions accepted. Also, that person who is not very well learned in the Shariah, tends to get carried away and does not pay heed and give due consideration to the limits of the Shariah. At times it may happen that a thing may be false and incorrect (in terms of the Shariah) and this person will endeavour to prove it to be true and Haqq. At times in such discussions a person may slur and revile an accepted servant of Allah Ta`ala‟s, hence blackening his Book of Deeds. A combination of all these factors, not only deprives one of the virtue of good actions, in fact, one‟s mental ability and tendency to accept the Haqq decreases gradually.

Therefore, it is my humble and sincere advice to all of you that each one of you follow and place your trust on that Aalim, whom you envisage and consider as being on Haqq, whom you deem is an Aalim-e-Muhaqqiq, and who is conveying the Message of Allaah Ta`ala and the Sunnah of Rasulullaah (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam) to the people for the Pleasure of Allaah Ta`ala. Practice according to this person‟s advice and teachings and continue with your daily routine. Instead of all this vain discussions and debates, you should all rather spend your time more constructively and engage in Thikr, Tilaawat, Durood Shareef or some other beneficial Deeni work

[prmnwoks]

http://www.muftisays.com/forums/peop...5/debates.html


I believe Mufti Taqi Usmani has done a bayan on the spiritual harms of argumentation and debates

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...ti-Taqi-Usmani


Below is a transcription

00:00 – The second thing he stated, “Even if Argument & Debate are for/on Haqq, abstain from Argument & Debate.”


00:10 – This (Argument & Debate) is too from among the banalities – (caused by the tongue) one of it's great banalities.


00:18 – It is one of the great pastimes of the people. Wherever a gathering takes place and a topic arises, Argument & Debate begins. [They argue] on completely useless things, those that neither bring any benefit in this world, nor in the hereafter. On such things, Argument & Debate.


00:36 – And keep in mind that this Argument & Debate, this is such a thing, that it utterly destroys the Baatin (inner being, purity of soul) of the human being.


00:44 – There is a statement attributed to Imam Malik that states (Mufti Taqi Uthmani stated the words of Imam Malik in Arabic, followed by their Urdu Translation), Imam Malik states that, “Argument & Debate destroys the 'light' of knowledge.” Meaning (for example) this happens predominantly among scholars, this Argument & Debate, because every scholar thinks he knows more, and due to this, if another [scholar] states something [different] then [the first] is ready to argue. And hours are being spent in it (argument); whether the argument is oral, or as written words / writing, in it time is being spent.


Con't...

[Mimsykzr]

Jazakallah khair brother amr123

another brilliant piece from your side.

What do you think brother: should all of us stop debating and arguing once and for all?

I am sincerely asking to hear your opinion...

Jazakallah

Abul Lais

[DiatryDal]

Jazakallah khair brother amr123

another brilliant piece from your side.

What do you think brother: should all of us stop debating and arguing once and for all?

I am sincerely asking to hear your opinion...

Jazakallah

Abul Lais

I'll insert my two paisas before Dr Amr. A discussion about religious matters is perhaps unavoidable because this is a legitimate way to propagate Islam and to gather knowledge of Islam. In my view we should try to conclude any discussion at the first sign of it turning into a debate. Of course consultation=mashwirah is the best way to gather knowledge. And in deed Allah(SWT) knows better.

[U5pz6B71]

First of all i should thank brother Ahmed of muftisays.com. He is the one who wrote the article.

Peaceful discussion with an open mind by quoting the ulema is always welcome. But one should accept if erred. Most often ppl go to great lengths just to twist things to suit their opinion. Also as shaykh Riyadul Haqq says leave the Fiqh to the ulema. If anyone has doubts post fatwas of the ulema rather than 'deriving' it ourselves. I have myself have erred quoting single hadith on fiqh issues.

But if someone tries to propagate deviant beliefs refute them properly. That too by providing proper daleel.

But what usually happens is we usually have convinced ourselves of an opinion, and we will not accept even if we are proved wrong. More often there are two or more valid opinions but we do not accept that either.

[esanamaserrn]

Also as shaykh Riyadul Haqq says leave the Fiqh to the ulema.

This sounds like an excellent slogan. May be someone can create a banner and card for it. Leave the Fiqh to Ulama. Also get the Fiqh from Ulama.
Wassalam

[joanasevilyboaz]

Discussions and debates hamper the ability of a person to carry out (good) actions.

Debates, yes. But discussions? Maybe we understand the word "discussion" differently? To me "discussion" is not locking horns, but exchanging ideas, or negotiating, or making things organized.

But I've been reading the Six Thinking Hats of Edward de Bono...

[clitlyphype]

Also as shaykh Riyadul Haqq says leave the Fiqh to the ulema.

but amr sahab..where are ulema/scholars/muftis of this forum. Are they all have taken long Leave of Absence..as so many fiqh related queries go unanswered. do they ever involved/cared to answer any query of the people who sometimes are very desparate to get their query answered.

amr sahab.. i think right now i see the forum is going very decent/very respectful ...i don't understand why u started this thread just to disctract and to stress people for no reason.

tell ur mods. to involve in replying to peoples' queries and helping them out.

i really didn't understand their job until today...

[Xtatotvk]

but amr sahab..where are ulema/scholars/muftis of this forum. Are they all have taken long Leave of Absence..as so many fiqh related queries go unanswered. do they ever involved/cared to answer any query of the people who sometimes are very desparate to get their query answered.

Sister, just to make the point clear. One can always ask the ulema in the community. Only if there isn't one or difficult to access, depend on Internet. In internet also ask the query to reputed imams like the scholars of askimam.com daruliftha.com etc etc. This forum is not the only place. The ulema of this forum has not left completely. They are busy with helping people in their own community so we can't blame them.

P.s. Please don't call me saheb, i m just a normal person.

[doxinwasido]

tell ur mods. to involve in replying to peoples' queries and helping them out.

i really didn't understand their job until today...
Sister you have no Idea what the mods have to go through to keep this Forum clean. Just spend around 2-3hrs every day checking every post posted in the forum, you will be surprised the amount of 'unwanted' posts that are being posted. But we do not see them as the mods already delete them.

Its true even I have criticized the mods, but I m a person with some free time and when I scan the forum my real life suffers, But the Mods balance both . I personally think the mods job is to keep the forums clean and the content relevant. To ask them to always participate in discussion is really pushing them. But often we see them posting very good discussions and blogs.

[somasideff]

P.s. Please don't call me saheb, i m just a normal person.

So Bro amr123

those with "saheb" behind their name are abormal???

(Just for laughs...)

[Mjxhnapi]

So Bro amr123

those with "saheb" behind their name are abormal???

(Just for laughs...)

lol.

[loginptsa]

lol.

answer him..

[V8V8V8]

http://www.muftisays.com/forums/peop...5/debates.html


I believe Mufti Taqi Usmani has done a bayan on the spiritual harms of argumentation and debates

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...ti-Taqi-Usmani


Below is a transcription

00:00 – The second thing he stated, “Even if Argument & Debate are for/on Haqq, abstain from Argument & Debate.”


00:10 – This (Argument & Debate) is too from among the banalities – (caused by the tongue) one of it's great banalities.


00:18 – It is one of the great pastimes of the people. Wherever a gathering takes place and a topic arises, Argument & Debate begins. [They argue] on completely useless things, those that neither bring any benefit in this world, nor in the hereafter. On such things, Argument & Debate.


00:36 – And keep in mind that this Argument & Debate, this is such a thing, that it utterly destroys the Baatin (inner being, purity of soul) of the human being.


00:44 – There is a statement attributed to Imam Malik that states (Mufti Taqi Uthmani stated the words of Imam Malik in Arabic, followed by their Urdu Translation), Imam Malik states that, “Argument & Debate destroys the 'light' of knowledge.” Meaning (for example) this happens predominantly among scholars, this Argument & Debate, because every scholar thinks he knows more, and due to this, if another [scholar] states something [different] then [the first] is ready to argue. And hours are being spent in it (argument); whether the argument is oral, or as written words / writing, in it time is being spent.


Con't...

01:18 – Imam Malik (Rahmatullahi-'alaih) states: [this] Debate destroys the 'light' of knowledge. The 'light' of knowledge does not remain and is lost. Oh brother, basically, (in simple, plain words), if your opinion is different from another person's, state your own opinion, “This is my opinion (---).” Listen to what the other person has to say, and if you understand what he has to say, accept it. And if you don't understand, then say, “I didn't understand what you said”, and (the two people separate ways on good terms, maintaining that all good is from Allah); what you understand, you follow, and what I understand, I will follow. (Unintelligible). The inherent result of Argument & Debate, when two individuals argue, each individual wishes that he should dominate [the argument]. 'My argument should remain dominant,' and he remains concerned in defeating his opponent. He (the arguer) then fails to differentiate the boundaries of Haqq (~ truth) from those of Baatil (~ falsehood). By whatever means, the opponent should be defeated – this idea then takes root.


02:17 – And sometimes Argument & Debate occurs over useless matters. (Unintelligible) – the Khalifah (follower/student) of [unintelligible - (someone)] stated that even if I am on Haqq and am stating the complete truth, and the other person is stating that which is wrong, even then do not engage in Argument & Debate. From your personal perspective, whatever you have come to understand, state that. And if you (the other person) come to understand that as well, then accept it, and if you do not understand, then (each individual's efforts are to his own).


02:45 – This idea extends to such an extent that look, Surah Al-Kaafiroon (the disbelievers – Qur'an, Chapter 109), that you and all of us recite in our prayers, this [Surah / chapter] was revealed for just such a purpose. That the Prophet Muhammad (PBAuh), said that his message of Tawheed (doctrine of Oneness of Allah), was stated completely and thoroughly to the Kuffar of Makkah (the disbelievers of Mecca, Saudi Arabia) and the proofs for it and everything related to it had been explained [to them].

[Barbshowers]

http://www.muftisays.com/forums/peop...5/debates.html
Con't By Mufti Taqi Usmani:

03:15 – Now the circumstances arose for Argument & Debate. (People now argued and debated with the Holy Prophet (Sallalahu alaihe wassalam) ) – and so due to [this event], this Surah (Qur'an – chapter 109) was revealed.


03:24 – (Mufti Taqi Uthmani recited verses 1-2, and 4-5 of Chapter 109) meaning (approximately) – 'O Disbelievers, listen! That which you worship, I will not worship it, and you don't worship Him that I worship, and what is it (Mufti Taqi Uthmani recited the 6th and last verse of Chapter 109) – to you is your Deen, and to me is my Deen. Meaning that I (Prophet Muhammad (Sallalahu alaihe wassalam) ) don't desire to Argue & Debate with you (disbelievers of Makkah). The proofs of Haqq, I (Prophet Muhammad (Sallalahu alaihe wassalam) ) have made clear, told to you, have had you hear them, and have had you understand them. If you (Disbelievers of Makkah) choose to accept it (The Prophet's (Sallalahu alaihe wassalam) message of Tawheed), then so be it, (for your benefit and your guidance). Additional, useless Argument & Debate is neither your right nor my right, (Mufti Taqi Uthmani again recited the 6th and last verse of Chapter 109) thus – To you is your Deen, and to me is my Deen. Even regarding those in a state of Kufr (disbelief) of Islam, Allah has stated that just tell them this (last verse of Chapter 109).


04:22 – And I (Mufti Taqi Uthmani) say that I don't quarrel nor do I participate in Argument & Debate. When regarding [even the] disbelievers of Islam, such a statement has been made (last verse of chapter 109), then regarding other matters the system of Argument & Debate remains alive among us, May Allah protect us, this is just a way of damaging the Baatin (inner being, purity of soul).

[lapInsalm]

http://www.muftisays.com/forums/peop...5/debates.html
Con't By Mufti Taqi Usmani:

04:42 – If something needs to be said, then (do it in such a way) and say it in a way such as desiring to seek the truth. With the genuine desire to seek knowledge, speak to the other person, state your own position [on a matter], listen to the other person's position, if you understand it, accept it, if you don't understand it, then leave it be, that's it. Don't argue.


05:00 – People [keep sending] to me, I don't know, morning and evening, telephone [messages], letters, and (emails), that, “Sahab, I get into an argument with so and so person, and [he] delivers a certain proof. What reply (rebuttal) should I present in [return]”. So you [all] tell me, if such a system [of argument and rebuttal] remains in place, that the other person delivers a proof, then you ask me for a rebuttal and present it to him, then he (states another proof [or reply to your rebuttal of his proof], then you ask me again [and so on and so forth]. What (kind of a system is this)? The straight of it is that Argument & Debate, just don't do it at all What you know to be Haqq, state it once, and if the other person accepts, (unintelligible) or doesn't accept, [idiom – to you is whatever you know and understand]. What (each) has come to understand, that is what they should accept. There is no need to move past this point [to additional argumentation].


05:44 – Take the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (Sallalahu alaihe wassalam), that,

“You are truthful, you are on Haqq, even then, don't participate in Argument & Debate.”

This became a veritable talent [avoiding argumentation] of his; an incredible talent. [He participated] in intellectual debate [with a scholar] and [had the talent to] give the other person (leeway). This skill [of reserved argumentation] began to be known as [a veritable] talent [in its own right].


06:11 – (Mufti Taqi Uthmani mentioned the names of some of his teachers at Dar-ul-Uloom Deoband who have since passed on, may Allah increase their ranks in the Aakhirah), so at the time, Hadhrat (one of his teachers) had a great passion, regarding the deviant sects / [groups], in intellectual debates with them. And for a period of time, he kept up his system of intellectual debates with them. And when he used to go [to debate with them] he used to really defeat them [in their arguments]. Allah had blessed him with the gift of eloquent speech. But after some time, Hadhrat stated himself, “After that [period of debating], my heart turned away from this [debating], it turned away so much, that now, in no way am I prepared to participate in intellectual debates with anyone. [This is] due to the fact that whenever I used to debate, I would feel a [spiritual] darkness in my heart. Debating would cause a [spiritual] darkness in my heart.”

[comprar-espana]

From - http://www.muftisays.com/forums/peop...5/debates.html
Con't By Mufti Taqi Usmani:


06:58 – So, due to this, (unintelligible) (Hadhrat himself) did not [debate anymore] to whatever degree was possible, and in addition he used to turn others away from [debating] as well; that there is no benefit in this (intellectual debating). Yes, once or twice, when the need arose, and the issue of clarification of Haqq [was at stake], so that was a different matter altogether, but making this [debating] a matter of course is not appropriate. [And when] its not appropriate for scholars, then why would it be alright for the average person [who is not an Islamic scholar]? Debating on matters of Deen, this is all useless talk.


07:27 – Akbar Ilahbadi (may Allah have mercy on him), who is a famous Urdu poet, he stated a great poem, regarding this Argument & Debate, he states, “Religious argumentation, I have never done – religious argumentation I never did, nor a useless mind did I possess.” This religious argumentation, this should be done by he who has a useless mind. So, “religious argumentation I never did, nor a useless mind did I possess.” So, each person should adhere to this idea. Yes, if there is some matter that you do not understand, then you can ask someone you know. If you are not understanding something, then you can find out from him, taking the position of a student of Haqq, but don't delve into Argument & Debate.


08:18 – Hadhrat (a respectful formality referring to one of the teachers – of Mufti Taqi Uthmani himself, or of the past) states regarding this, regarding a Hadith (in this case, a saying of the Prophet Muhammad (Sallalahu alaihe wassalam), that we find out from this [hadith] that from Argument & Debate, (spiritual) darkness comes into being, because the incompleteness of Emaan (strength of conviction in Tawheed) is (spiritual) tyranny, and this is exactly why you will see the people of Tareeqat (the Islamic science of spiritual enlightenment), emphatically detest Argument & Debate. The people of Tareeqat, meaning, those who follow the path of self-perfection, friends of Allah, they emphatically detest Argument & Debate.

[lalpphilalk]

From - http://www.muftisays.com/forums/peop...5/debates.html
Con't By Mufti Taqi Usmani:


Translator's note: In the following account, the names of the scholars that Mufti Taqui Uthmani referred to could not be clearly heard, so the two scholars of interest have been labeled #1 and #2.

08:54 – There was a time, when regarding a certain matter, I had to write a book. There was an elder (scholar #1, ~ mentor to Mufti Taqi Uthmani, may Allah increase his ranks in [Heaven]). There was a student of that elder, and he too was an incredible scholar. So he himself said to me once, that in the (unintelligible – Mufti Taqi Uthmani referred to a certain piece of jurisprudence that had been written by the peer (scholar #2) of one of Mufti Taqi Uthmani's elders (scholar #1)), regarding certain companions of Prophet Muhammad (Sallalahu alaihe wassalam), there was some slighting (derogatory) remarks, so he (scholar #1 - elder to Mufti Taqi Uthmani) told me to write (a reply) on the topic. So I wrote it. I wrote it and then from the other side, there was a response (rebuttal). On the response, I wrote once more (a second reply). So this happened twice (reply followed by rebuttal); that once I wrote, then he replied, and so I replied once more. So when Hadhrat (scholar #1), may Allah have mercy on him, read my second reply, he wrote a note to me that (unintelligible) is still safe. And in it he stated that he had read my dissertations (in the replies), and after reading it, was happy, and made du'as (for Mufti Taqi Uthmani), “may Allah accept your efforts,” and following that, he also wrote, “Now, bury this morbid (penchant of yours for) argumentation.” “And now, bury this morbid (penchant of yours for) argumentation.”


10:19 – That now, you have wrote your last piece (in the court of Argument & Debate), and that whatever Haqq needed to be made clear, has been done. But now, lets say a reply (another reply to Mufti Taqi Uthmani's last response) still comes, that now don't write in reply. Due to the fact that the doors of Argument & Debate will open, and so, take this morbid (penchant) for argumentation, and bury it. So the friends of Allah vehemently despise this (Argument & Debate), because there is never any benefit. Have you ever seen anyone accept the Haqq (presented to him) in intellectual debate, in Argument & Debate. Other than a waste of time, it is nothing else. This is why (unintelligible) and the Prophet of Allah (Sallalahu alaihe wassalam) has stated,

[Mynameishappy]

alhamdulillah.great thread. will read more on this one day in sha Allah

[Junrlaeh]

i would say a meaningful discussion is good, an open discussion where each individual is open to the others opinion...atleast even if they do not agree.. open enough to listen to the others opinion