[scewDeasp]

The imaginary fact that the sun is setting in water is an ''unseen reality'' for you

Some of the religious literature you are citing has to be understood or located into the culture in which it is coming from. It was not narrated to an audience of materialistic atheist-humanists. They are not describing the world 'out there' scientifically, it is talking about the world 'inside'. Spiritual masters talk about the sky of the heart, the sun etc. it might even be poetic language. One narrator I read has said that they saw the Throne and the footstool and the footstool in relation to the throne in size and scale is like a ring thrown into a vast desert. Are we going to analyse this statement using science and observation? If we did we would be making a giant mistake, these things are beyond the comprehension of scientific methodology. A good analogy I read recently describing science said that it is like a tailor who measures up Tom and knows all his dimensions and can tailor all his clothes for him perfectly, if you ask the tailor (science in this analogy) about Tom they will give you all his measurement, but if you ask him about the other aspects of Toms personality the tailor will not have a clue. This indicates the limits of scientific methods.

[IoninnyHaro]

Some of the religious literature you are citing has to be understood or located into the culture in which it is coming from. It was not narrated to an audience of materialistic atheist-humanists. They are not describing the world 'out there' scientifically, it is talking about the world 'inside'. Spiritual masters talk about the sky of the heart, the sun etc. it might even be poetic language. One narrator I read has said that they saw the Throne and the footstool and the footstool in relation to the throne in size and scale is like a ring thrown into a vast desert. Are we going to analyse this statement using science and observation? If we did we would be making a giant mistake, these things are beyond the comprehension of scientific methodology. A good analogy I read recently describing science said that it is like a tailor who measures up Tom and knows all his dimensions and can tailor all his clothes for him perfectly, if you ask the tailor (science in this analogy) about Tom they will give you all his measurement, but if you ask him about the other aspects of Toms personality the tailor will not have a clue. This indicates the limits of scientific methods.

So why somethimes muslims are quoting verses and pretending that they have scientific discoveries...

[alenbarbaf]

Yes, the hadeeths are saying that there is water under the throne of Allah and the sun sets under his Throne. And the verses is talking about the sun setting in water.

you cannot make an assumption and then ask for proof for it. if your assumption is already incorrect then you will not get proof for your assumption.

you are assuming that the verse is literal in that the sun was going into a pool of muddy water. but from what i know the verse is just poetically saying that when he reached the area of muddy water, the sun was setting and night was falling.

[trorseIrripsy]

ok. thats good.

so the scientists caught up with the words of Allah and His Prophet . remember there will be many other things that may seem strange to us, but that is because science has yet to catch up with quran and hadith in some cases.

Always the same excuse...

[iioijjjkkojhbb]

you cannot make an assumption and then ask for proof for it. if your assumption is already incorrect then you will not get proof for your assumption.

you are assuming that the verse is literal in that the sun was going into a pool of muddy water. but from what i know the verse is just poetically saying that when he reached the area of muddy water, the sun was setting and night was falling.

IF there was no hadeeth, a literal understanding of the verses would be logicall, but there is hadeeth dealing with the subject.

[ElenaEvgeevnaa]

Always the same excuse...

why is it an excuse?

had the scientists not have discovered water in space then you would have completely rejected the notion that the throne is above water.

but because i showed you scientific proof that there is water in space, you are now willing to accept that possibility.

you only accepted the possibility because science caught up with something that was written over 1400 years ago. had science not caught up then you would have remained ignorant about it.

it seems like you are not willing to accept anything even when you yourself confirmed it. there is no point discussing with you.

[illerlytoindy]

So why somethimes muslims are quoting verses and pretending that they have scientific discoveries...

Science has limits only it does not mean it should be abandoned.

[Mumeseest]

The verse about Dhul-Qarnain refers to what he saw - the Qur'an is pretty clear on this. To twist it into something that it isn't is extremely disingenuous. Dhul-Qarnain saw the sun setting in a muddy spring. That is how it appeared to him.

Furthermore, the prostration of the sun is its own orbit. The sun is not rotating at a fixed spot, but it has its own orbit within the galaxy. Science has yet to observe the full extent of its orbit and can only draw theoretical models so far.

A lot of what you've asked (in fact, all of it) has been brought up and answered before. Why waste our time? Just do a simple search of these forums.

[Gilowero]

this garet dude needs to be banned. All he's doing is creating fitna.

[MaickiP]

this garet dude needs to be banned. All he's doing is creating fitna.

I would normally disagree with you on this issue but seeing as how everything he has asked has already been answered on not just this forum but almost every other Islamic forum where Islamophobes post, I agree.

[HaroTaure]

this garet dude needs to be banned. All he's doing is creating fitna.

If I wanted to create fitna, I would make a website where I would able to post very mistake i've found to mislead other muslims.

[Brainpole]

Bismillah Ir-Rehman Ir-Raheem

Assalam-Alaikum to the people of the Straight Path:

May Allah guide you, me, and all of us to the Straight Path.

Brother, may I ask as to the purpose of why you came on this Forum? Genuine question, Brother, as I have been curious.

If I have said anything that is good and true, it is from Allah, and anything other than that is my own mistake.

[w3QHxwNb]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

He posted this on Ummah forums too, obviously a troll. I'll paste my reply here too;

Next time you want to avoid embarrassing yourself, I would recommend searching for the answer here.

I'll save you some time, these are all famous classical scholars;

Imam Al-Baidawi notes,

He probably reached shore of the ocean and saw it like that because there was but water at the furthest of his sight that's why He says "he found it set" and does not say "it sets". (Al-Baidawi, Anwar-ut-Tanzil wa Asrar-ut-Taw'il, Volume 3, page 394. Published by Dar-ul-Ashraf, Cairo, Egypt)

Imam Al-Qurtubi states,

Al-Qaffal said: It is not meant by reaching the rising or setting of the sun that he reached its body and touched it because it runs in the sky around the earth without touching it and it is too great to enter any spring on earth. It is so much larger than earth. But it is meant that he reached the end of populated land east and west, so he found it - according to his vision - setting in a spring of a murky water like we watch it in smooth land as if it enters inside the land. That is why He said, "he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun." (Holy Qur'ân 18:90) and did not mean that it touches or adheres to them; but they are the first to rise on.

Al-Qutabiy said: Probably this spring is a part of the sea and the sun sets behind, with or at it, so the proposition takes the place of an adjective and Allah knows best. (Al-Qurtubi, Al-Game' le Ahkam-el-Qur'an, Volume 16, page 47. Published by Dar-ul-Hadith, Cairo, Egypt. ISBN 977-5227-44-5)

Imam Fakhr-ud-Deen Ar-Razi states,

When Zul-Qarnain reached the furthest west and no populated land was left, he found the sun as if it sets in a dark spring, but it is not in reality. The same when sea traveler sees the sun as if it sets in the sea if he cannot see the shore while in reality it sets behind the sea. (Ar-Razi, At-Tafsir-ul-Kabir, Volume 21, page 166)

Imam Ibn Kathir states,

"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun" means he followed a certain way till he reached the furthest land he could go from the west. As for reaching the setting of the sun in the sky, it is impossible. What narrators and story tellers say about that he walked for a period of time in earth while the sun was setting behind him is unreal, and most of it is from myths of People of the Book and inventions of their liars.
"he found it set in a spring of murky water" means he saw the sun according to his vision setting in the ocean and this is the same with everyone ending to the shore seeing as if the sun sets inside it (i.e. the ocean).

(Ibn Kathir, Tafsir-ul-Qur'ân Al-'Azim, Volume 5, page 120. Published by Maktabat-ul-Iman, Mansoura, Egypt)

As for the hadiths, it's talking about the unseen and has no relation to the verse, no scholar ever related it to that verse either.

You can read more about it here; http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-296-4020.htm

[Abraham]

If I wanted to create fitna, I would make a website where I would able to post very mistake i've found to mislead other muslims.

so you've done this on other forums too. Stop trolling and get a life.

[VoriEremiagem]

It's funny how you claim that you have found these mistakes when all you're doing is copying and pasting from anti-Islamic websites verbatim.

[jamisi]

To add to this, the sun certainly sets, from the perspective on the surface of this planet.

Every day, I see the sun set into the horizon in the west. It is a reality.

It is always interesting, though sad, to see those who disbelieve literally deny reality, even sometimes denying their own existance.

[zabiqapara]

To add to this, the sun certainly sets, from the perspective on the surface of this planet.

Every day, I see the sun set into the horizon in the west. It is a reality.

It is always interesting, though sad, to see those who disbelieve literally deny reality, even sometimes denying their own existance.

Lol yeah, have you heard of the Hologram theory? Apparently the universe doesn't exist, we're all just holograms.

[baxodrom]

If I wanted to create fitna, I would make a website where I would able to post very mistake i've found to mislead other muslims.

Whats with you guys ... don't you feel your more of a looney toon character . You have something to say against Islam say it with some rational and construct your argument so that it engages members here .

Whats this senseless hate you feel come from . You keep on hammering at issues that don't do anyone any good . Wasting our time.

Why don't you say whats your personal bone to pick is . What do you find about Islam so troubling from your own life experiences not copy pastes from other sites that have been answered many times on the thread.

Go ahead , its only a forum post no one is going to harm you.

Of course if you end up abusing / ridiculing peoples feelings and belief or using foul language your only gonna get banned. That is only fair in any forum.

Up to you . You want to waste your own efforts ? Everyone would much appreciate it if you go to the
heart of the matter.

Where do your hate come from ?

[ppfpooghn]

There is a nice long explanation of these hadith in Maariful Qur'an of Mufti Shafi Usmani under Yaseen.

[Fededorbprago]

IF there was no hadeeth, a literal understanding of the verses would be logicall, but there is hadeeth dealing with the subject.

you mean, it has to be according to your interpretations, regardless of all contexts as explained in the tafseer and other contextual texts? But the reality is not as what you'd want it to be. There are tons of Islamic literature out there that provides contexts and historical insight into both the Quran and the hadith of the Prophet .

Reading translations of a couple hadiths and try to relate that directly to verses in the Quran wont make you someone *knowledgeable* about the issue. What you did was just linking point A to point B without any background information or context, as such your "conclusion" wouldn't qualify as a conclusion at all. Without background information, you wouldn't know if points A and B sit on the same plane or not. Otherwise, anyone can be an economist, or a historian, or just about anything you name it. As such, please listen and read when other people provide some context and background information to help you to understand the question you posed. Otherwise you would be circling around the same denial loop without any real understanding of the topic.

Allahu A'lam.