[alex_loudermilk]

Hi,

Ibn Khuzaymah narrated in his Saheeh (9105) and in his Kitaab al-Tawheed (no. 594) that Ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “Between the lowest heaven and the one above it is (a distance of) five hundred years, and between each heaven and the next is (a distance of) five hundred years marching.” According to another report: “The thickness of each heaven is a distance of five hundred years marching. Between the seventh heaven and the Footstool (al-Kursiy) is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the Footstool and the water is (a distance of) five hundred years. The Throne is above the water and Allaah is above the Throne, and none of your deeds are concealed from Him.” It was classed as saheeh by al-Dhahabi in al-‘Alw (p. 64) and by Ibn al-Qayyim in Ijtimaa’ al-Juyoosh al-Islamiyyah, p. 100.

It was narrated that Ibn Mas’ood said: Between the first heaven and the one above it is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between each of the heavens is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the seventh heaven and the Kursiy is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the Kursiy and the water is (a distance of) five hundred years, and the Throne is above the water. Allaah is above the Throne, and nothing whatsoever of your deeds is hidden from Him. (narrated by Ibn Khuzaymah in al-Tawheed, p. 105; by al-Bayhaqi in al-Asmaa’ wa’l-Sifaat, p. 401).
This report was classed as saheeh by Ibn al-Qayyim in Ijtimaa’ al-Juyoosh al-Islamiyah, p. 100; by al-Dhahabi in al-‘Uluw, p. 64).
Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said:
This hadeeth stops at Ibn Mas’ood (it is mawqoof), but this is one of the matters concerning which there is no room for personal opinion, so it comes under the heading of marfoo’ [ahaadeeth whose isnaad goes back to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)], because Ibn Mas’ood is not known to have taken anything from the Israa’eeliyyaat [reports derived from Jewish sources].


This is scientifically inacurate... 500 years distance between the heavens and water in the end of the universe?!

[fedelwet]

You are a desert arab with no universties, no colleges, no traditions of empiricism within physics, no books, no labs, no hubble telescope, no telescopes in fact
and you are describing distances to other desert arabs ?
Ever thought "500 years marching" might be metaphorically speaking, given it used to take 11 days camel ride from Mecca to Medina ?
The prophet would say things like "70" - to imply innumerable. It didnt mean 70 as we knew it. It was a colloquialism for many many many...much much much..

[eladiopsislab]

Hi,

Ibn Khuzaymah narrated in his Saheeh (9105) and in his Kitaab al-Tawheed (no. 594) that Ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “Between the lowest heaven and the one above it is (a distance of) five hundred years, and between each heaven and the next is (a distance of) five hundred years marching.” According to another report: “The thickness of each heaven is a distance of five hundred years marching. Between the seventh heaven and the Footstool (al-Kursiy) is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the Footstool and the water is (a distance of) five hundred years. The Throne is above the water and Allaah is above the Throne, and none of your deeds are concealed from Him.” It was classed as saheeh by al-Dhahabi in al-‘Alw (p. 64) and by Ibn al-Qayyim in Ijtimaa’ al-Juyoosh al-Islamiyyah, p. 100.

It was narrated that Ibn Mas’ood said: Between the first heaven and the one above it is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between each of the heavens is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the seventh heaven and the Kursiy is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the Kursiy and the water is (a distance of) five hundred years, and the Throne is above the water. Allaah is above the Throne, and nothing whatsoever of your deeds is hidden from Him. (narrated by Ibn Khuzaymah in al-Tawheed, p. 105; by al-Bayhaqi in al-Asmaa’ wa’l-Sifaat, p. 401).
This report was classed as saheeh by Ibn al-Qayyim in Ijtimaa’ al-Juyoosh al-Islamiyah, p. 100; by al-Dhahabi in al-‘Uluw, p. 64).
Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said:
This hadeeth stops at Ibn Mas’ood (it is mawqoof), but this is one of the matters concerning which there is no room for personal opinion, so it comes under the heading of marfoo’ [ahaadeeth whose isnaad goes back to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)], because Ibn Mas’ood is not known to have taken anything from the Israa’eeliyyaat [reports derived from Jewish sources].


This is scientifically inacurate... 500 years distance between the heavens and water in the end of the universe?!

So, tell me, which physicist has shown or proven what exists beyond the universe to suggest that what is in the hadeeth is "scientifically inacurate"? Also, there is no scale mentioned. 500 years of what - a car ride? A walk? Light speed? Faster than light speed, whose existence has recently emerged as a possibility?

[Jannet.K]

So, tell me, which physicist has shown or proven what exists beyond the universe to suggest that what is in the hadeeth is "scientifically inacurate"? Also, there is no scale mentioned. 500 years of what - a car ride? A walk? Light speed? Faster than light speed, whose existence has recently emerged as a possibility?

But the water... that isnt making sense!

[janeemljr]

But the water... that isnt making sense!

How does it not make sense? Furthermore, God created everything. If He wills it, he can flood the entire universe with water so what is the problem with having water outside of the universe? God willed the universe into existence from nothingness. To create something from nothing is more astonishing than water existing outside the universe, yet not even scientists can tell or even theorize about the cause of the universe except to claim that it existed eternally, which makes no logical sense as it defies causality, the basis of all rational thought.

A lot of stuff that scientists have observed makes no sense, which is the reason that even quantum physics seems to be on the way out, with even more theoretical models trying to accommodate for what has been seen around the universe, recently. For example, according to Einstein, nothing could travel faster than light but scientists have observed things that do travel faster than light. This was a severe blow to the theory of relativity.

But without even observing things and thinking about them, none of these things make sense in the absence of God. How did matter come into existence? What caused the change that made it expand? What gave matter its properties? Even the recently discovered Higgs field is something unexplainable. How did that come into being? We know it exists, but how did it come into existence? What gave the initial hydrogen atoms the ability to morph and increase their proton and neutron count to "evolve" into different types of atoms? All these "innate" properties that we take for granted cannot exist without a lawmaker. A computer programmer will tell you that things don't automatically come into existence. A doctor will tell you that every illness inevitably has an etiology, even if it may be unknown. But, what happens with those scientists who try to explain the beginnings of the universe in a godless universe is that they end up with saying that eternity of matter is a valid observation, which goes against everything we have ever learned about science. They claim things happened but they cannot even theorize why.

[hiedeemom]

One with no understanding of Arabic language (its usage) is trying to project their relative meaning. Sciences is relative - its finding is ever changing!!
Instead of trying to draw ones own conclusion, perhaps it would be better if one actually asked the person who knows. Unlike chistian we the majority muslims are not hyper literalist. Hence it is frowned upon (actually prohibited) to derive law by mere reading of text without the knowledge of the language, its use and context.
Allahualm

[HexcewlyRette]

Imagine trying to describe a computer and the internet to someone from 6th century Britain? How would you even begin? You would probably end up sounding like a mad man, only if someone read it in this time would they understand it.

[secondmertg]

You are a desert arab with no universties, no colleges, no traditions of empiricism within physics, no books, no labs, no hubble telescope, no telescopes in fact
and you are describing distances to other desert arabs ?
Ever thought "500 years marching" might be metaphorically speaking, given it used to take 11 days camel ride from Mecca to Medina ?
The prophet would say things like "70" - to imply innumerable. It didnt mean 70 as we knew it. It was a colloquialism for many many many...much much much..

Salam `Aleykum,


What you said is true, these expressions are simply used to illustrate the great distance. It doesn't mean that he took the exact measure.

[acissombiapse]

^^
what's wrong with water? even the Sun has water on it.....

[Cersdog]

^^
what's wrong with water? even the Sun has water on it.....

Um.... no, it doesnt. I really, really hope you were joking.

[Cucoulkrory]

Um.... no, it doesnt. I really, really hope you were joking.

I searched for it. The topic is still in twilight. Sun spots have much lower temperatures (3200K) as compared to the normal solar surface temperature (5600K). Some rotational band spectrum have been observed that could be water vapour like. To be sure one has to generate water vapour rotational spectra at suitable temperatures in lab. Experiments beyond 800K are difficult. So there is a possibility but as I said above the area of research seems to be gray in the sense that we have not covered required physical window both theoretically as well as experimentally.

And to boot I might be missing some obvious things also - some common question do not have very common answers.

[Anneskobsen]

I searched for it. The topic is still in twilight. Sun spots have much lower temperatures (3200K) as compared to the normal solar surface temperature (5600K). Some rotational band spectrum have been observed that could be water vapour like. To be sure one has to generate water vapour rotational spectra at suitable temperatures in lab. Experiments beyond 800K are difficult. So there is a possibility but as I said above the area of research seems to be gray in the sense that we have not covered required physical window both theoretically as well as experimentally.

And to boot I might be missing some obvious things also - some common question do not have very common answers.

But even the relatively cool temperatures of sunspots is way to hot for water to exist in liquid form.

3,200K = 5,840°F = 3,226°C

[NickGrass]

But even the relatively cool temperatures of sunspots is way to hot for water to exist in liquid form.

3,200K = 5,840°F = 3,226°C

Actually liquid is left far behind. It has to be vapour only. My worry was about bonding being smashed at much lower temperatures. So what is the temperature at which hydrogen-oxygen bond will break? At temperature above that it will be meaning less to talk about water - even in vapour form.

[www.forumsovetov.ru]

APM 08279+5255 - The Largest Water Mass In The Universe (So Far)

http://www.science20.com/news_articl...e_so_far-81124


the problem is not with the quran and hadith. the problem is that science has not caught up.

[emexiagog]

The Koran teaches us that there are seven heavens one above the other and that the stars are in the lower heaven, but the moon is in the midst of the seven heavens.
However, in reality the stars are much further away from the earth than the moon.
(Koran 67:3-5)
He Who created the seven heavens, one above the
other...And WE have adorned the lowest heaven with
lamps ...
(Koran 71:15-16)
Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens
one above the other, and made the moon a light in their
midst,and made the sun as a lamp?
(Koran 71:41:12)
And He completed the seven heavens in two
days and inspired in each heaven its command;
and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps,
and rendered it guarded...
Firstly, the Koran states that there are seven heavens in universe. Any sane person who has studied a bit of Modern Astronomy can tell that the conception of seven heavens was nothing but a result of Mohammed's absurd imagination. Muslim compliers try to cover up this serious flaw in the Koran by saying that the ex-pression should be considered poetic rather than scientific.
Secondly, Koran claims that the stars are in a lower or even lowest heaven, while the moon is in a middle heaven. Even a child in primary standard knows today that the stars are much much further away from the earth than the moon.

Again a false claim The seven universes are one inside the other. The 7th universe, which is the smallest of the seven universes, and which is the innermost, and which we live in, is surrounded by the 6th universe. The 5th universe surrounds the 6th ...and so on, till we get to the 1st universe, which is the greatest and outermost universe.

In that respect, anything that lies inside the 7th universe is also inside the 6th, 5th...... up to the 1st universe, since the 7th universe lies at the centre of all universes.

The moon, sun, stars plus all the galaxies and the farthest heavily bodies (quasars) all lie inside the 7th and smallest universe. That is the universe in which we live.
The moon, all the stars we see in the sky, plus all the galaxies we see are all part of the innermost 7th universes. With this in mind, if you read all the the verses you will see no contradiction. The Quran does not say that moon is in the middle heaven. It is your wild imagination. The Quran does specifically refer to moon and sun because of its importance to humankind.
So if we follow this refutation, the heavens are inside each others. But in the hadith it say that there is 500 years between them, that doesn't make sense if the heavens are inside each others. Something is wrong..

[Dpkefsuf]

"The Throne is above the water and Allaah is above the Throne, and none of your deeds are concealed from Him.”

Isn't this pretty much exact proof for the aqeedah that allah is above the throne? Why would a sahabi give such a definition of where allah is.

I am struggling to give a different meaning or understanding to so many statements which affirm allah is above his throne?

Help please?

[DoctorGordanBens]

So if we follow this refutation, the heavens are inside each others. But in the hadith it say that there is 500 years between them, that doesn't make sense if the heavens are inside each others. Something is wrong..

How does it not make sense? The heavens are layered, atop each other - that is what is probably what the brother meant by saying "inside" each other. If you look at the layers of the earth, for example, the crust encircles the mantle layer completely so it would not be wrong to say that the mantle layer is underneath the crust. Even the layers of the atmosphere are of varying distance between each other.

Where are you quoting that from? It seems like some non-Muslim's claim and a Muslim's response. The non-Muslim appears to be an outright liar. For example, he claims that "Muslim compliers try to cover up this serious flaw in the Koran by saying that the ex-pression should be considered poetic rather than scientific" when this is never the case. Muslims believe in the literal levels of heaven. Even the claim that the moon is in the middle of the all the heavens is an idiotic lie. The word used in the Qur'an is فيهن which means "in them". The moon is a light in the heavens, not in the middle of the seven heavens.

"The Throne is above the water and Allaah is above the Throne, and none of your deeds are concealed from Him.”

Isn't this pretty much exact proof for the aqeedah that allah is above the throne? Why would a sahabi give such a definition of where allah is.

I am struggling to give a different meaning or understanding to so many statements which affirm allah is above his throne?

Help please?

Start a different thread about this issue. The problem with using an English translation of a hadeeth, especially one that is provided by Salafis, is that it will leave you confused. The same word that the Salafis translate in the Qur'an as being above (استوى) was most likely the one used in the Arabic of the hadeeth. It does not mean "up" as the Salafis keep on claiming it does.

[yK2VgoEI]

How does it not make sense? The heavens are layered, atop each other - that is what is probably what the brother meant by saying "inside" each other. If you look at the layers of the earth, for example, the crust encircles the mantle layer completely so it would not be wrong to say that the mantle layer is underneath the crust. Even the layers of the atmosphere are of varying distance between each other.

Where are you quoting that from? It seems like some non-Muslim's claim and a Muslim's response. The non-Muslim appears to be an outright liar. For example, he claims that "Muslim compliers try to cover up this serious flaw in the Koran by saying that the ex-pression should be considered poetic rather than scientific" when this is never the case. Muslims believe in the literal levels of heaven. Even the claim that the moon is in the middle of the all the heavens is an idiotic lie. The word used in the Qur'an is فيهن which means "in them". The moon is a light in the heavens, not in the middle of the seven heavens.





Start a different thread about this issue. The problem with using an English translation of a hadeeth, especially one that is provided by Salafis, is that it will leave you confused. The same word that the Salafis translate in the Qur'an as being above (استوى) was most likely the one used in the Arabic of the hadeeth. It does not mean "up" as the Salafis keep on claiming it does.

If the heavens are layered, there is no distance between them, they are one on another, but the hadith says that there is a distance of ''500 years'' between the each of the heavens, something is wrong...and how do we know that heavens are inside eachothers.

[bp9QxekG]

If the heavens are layered, there is no distance between them, they are one on another, but the hadith says that there is a distance of ''500 years'' between the each of the heavens, something is wrong...and how do we know that heavens are inside eachothers.

Bring this hadeeth in Arabic. "Between" simply refers to the span of the heavens and how long it takes to get from one heaven to the other. It is a ridiculously simple concept.

[ssyyyrruho]

So if we follow this refutation, the heavens are inside each others. But in the hadith it say that there is 500 years between them, that doesn't make sense if the heavens are inside each others. Something is wrong..

It can be as simple as this; hypothetically, if a sphere is inside another sphere, the distance can be meant as the the distance between the inner shell to the outer shell.

But then, what's the unit 500 years meant? Time itself is relative (one Earth year is different than one Mars year, for example). Also one day in the afterlife is equivalent to 1000 years (Earth year). So which 500 years unit is used here?

Allahu A'lam.