[JacksHH]

Yes, please use another term.

for example?

[Gcromqgb]

Brother Dawud,


Try to be a little bit more mature in your approach to these things.


Hudhaifah narrates that Rasulullah said: Do not imitate others and start saying if others treat us well, we will treat them well, and if they do wrong to us, we will do wrong to them; but accustom yourself to do good if people do good, and not to do wrong if they do wrong.

(Tirmidhi)

jazak allahu khair bro for the hadeeth, but my intention isnt "well these guys keep insulting salafis so ill just start on sufis to show em how they look like", I'm asking a genuine question as I get mixed answers on these points and im quite unclear about a lot of things. But when incosistencies are metted out, I will point them out. When brothers say defending teh niqaab isnt worth their time but then defending grave worship is, when brotehrs think tehy should be free to stereotye salafis whilst being defensive when it happens to sufism, when I see contradictions, partisanship, injustice, then of course I'm going to point this out. whatever courtesy you feel should be given to sufis, same shoudl apply for salafis. and a truely sincere person will defend eitehr salafis or sufis if boundries are transgressed, yet anti sufi threads, and anti salafi threads are worlds apart in terms of fairness, people jumping in to defend misconceptions, people being downright rude (in contradiction to teh ideology they are defending) etc

[boizzones]

ok well thats a good thing bro jazak allahu khair, i never said they represent real sufis or sufi beliefs, I picked up the term extreme sufi from others here, meaning they have taken sufism and taken it to extremes, but I dont mind what term I shoudl use for them if you can suggest another inshAllah. Ahlal bid'ah got me an infraction yesterday so please suggest something inshAllah

Also bare in mind taht I have been on the opposite end of this discussion regarding salafis for a long time here, asking people to be more just etc, and people basically told me to stop complaining ratehr than actually say what your saying now. So it seems unfair to me taht brotehrs would be concerned with fairness when it comes to sufis but not salafis (not saying you do this but otehrs do). People are more than happy to link salafis to all sorts, basing their understanding of salafis on front page news, or some guy they met in the masjid, or extreme offshoots that dont represent teh salafi jama'ah. So there needs to be consistency on application of principles if you catch my drift. if this clarification is made for sufis, same should apply for salafis

People understand Salafism differently based on their own context. If I was living in Pakistan, whenever I would talk about Salafism, I would most likely be referring to the Ahle Hadees of Pakistan, who are a plague (infamous for equating Hanafis with mushrikeen). If I was living in Saudia, whenever I would speak of Salafis, I would refer to the Salafi scholars. So, everything has a context and we all know that not all Salafis are the same. Some people are affiliated with certain personalities or groups that have a hatred of Salafis due to what happened in the Najd centuries ago and thus would also have a hatred of Salafis.

Overall, it is best to ignore people who lay baseless accusations upon Salafis. Or just know that they are most likely referring to a particular group within Salafiyyah that probably holds the beliefs that they claim the Salafis hold. But you should also be less inflammatory in your posts. You often bring up differences between the Salafis and non-Salafis, such as the issue of taqleed (and there are differences on this within the Salafiyyah as well, with some Salafis saying that taqleed is obligatory upon the layperson) and tasawwuf. In fact, there are so many Salafis that practice Sufism and some are even fake Sufis and take part in weird rituals or hold strange beliefs. What makes them Salafi? A lot of these fake Sufis don't adhere to their madhhab. I would even say that Tahir ul Qadri is a "la madhhabi" since he goes against established Hanafi principles and does his own ijtihad.

[Escamsrasiush]

for example?

Whatever you want. But stop calling grave worshipping people sufis, because they are not.

[ketNavatutt]

Is this thread supposed to be about the real or not real partisanship of Sunniforum participants or about the grave (pardon the pun) bid'ah of erecting tombs over graves and people literally worshipping them? As far as I was aware the kutoob of the ahnaaf are more than clear in stating the impermissibility of the building structures, tombs over graves. Nevermind the actions which people in this day and age have invented with regards to the graves of Awliyaa.

Hadhrat Umar had Hadhrat Danyaal alayhis salaam's grave exhumed and moved to another location for fear of people acting in an impermissible manner. He also had the tree of ridwaan cut down again for the same reason.

Are some people on here seriously stating that the qabr pujaari (grave worship) practices that are generally the mainstay at such tombs are permissible? For once forget who it is that is carrying out the obliteration of the haraam.

[tooratrack]

So looks like these people believe in things like a mosque door opening causing th eworld to end. Is this extreme soofi beliefs?

You use the word "soofi" more than my heart beat.

[markbila]

Assalamu alaykum.

I know a place, a newly appointed imam in a town spoke against the grave worship with great zeal. A few locals went and vandalized the grave.

The result!!!!!!!!

The locals constructed a Rupees 10 million worth structure over that grave.

So!!

When a child is having a sharp knife in his hand, don't try to snatch it. Offer a chocolate, he will throw the knife.

[StoyaFanst]

Is this thread supposed to be about the real or not real partisanship of Sunniforum participants or about the grave (pardon the pun) bid'ah of erecting tombs over graves and people literally worshipping them? As far as I was aware the kutoob of the ahnaaf are more than clear in stating the impermissibility of the building structures, tombs over graves. Nevermind the actions which people in this day and age have invented with regards to the graves of Awliyaa.

Hadhrat Umar had Hadhrat Danyaal alayhis salaam's grave exhumed and moved to another location for fear of people acting in an impermissible manner. He also had the tree of ridwaan cut down again for the same reason.

Are some people on here seriously stating that the qabr pujaari (grave worship) practices that are generally the mainstay at such tombs are permissible? For once forget who it is that is carrying out the obliteration of the haraam.

I think there is gross exaggeration going on here. Not a single Muslim would say that worshiping graves is acceptable. To suggest that it is somehow linked to Sufism is grossly disingenuous. The issue of building over graves, though, is an issue of Fiqh and there is a difference of opinion on this issue amongst the Shafi'is. Those who should be asked would be the Shafi'is since it is an issue of fiqh of their madhhab. But instead, a leap from building over graves to worshiping graves is being made, which none of the Shafi'is agree with either. Grave worshiping is a side effect of jahiliyyah, not Sufism nor due to ikhtilaaf in a madhhab. People do lots of weird thing without any reason. I've seen people rubbing the Kiswa of the Ka'bah as if to receive barakah from it. I've seen people push and fight to go to the Hajr-al-Aswad (when kissing the Hajr is sunnah, while fighting and pushing to get to it is haraam). All this happens under the sight of the muttawween but it is obvious that both these acts have little to do with Sufism or Salafism, but with jahiliyyah.

[ebookinfo]

you use the word "soofi" more than my heart beat.

lol!

[CesseOveldset]

I think there is gross exaggeration going on here. Not a single Muslim would say that worshiping graves is acceptable. To suggest that it is somehow linked to Sufism is grossly disingenuous. The issue of building over graves, though, is an issue of Fiqh and there is a difference of opinion on this issue amongst the Shafi'is. Those who should be asked would be the Shafi'is since it is an issue of fiqh of their madhhab. But instead, a leap from building over graves to worshiping graves is being made, which none of the Shafi'is agree with either. Grave worshiping is a side effect of jahiliyyah, not Sufism nor due to ikhtilaaf in a madhhab. People do lots of weird thing without any reason. I've seen people rubbing the Kiswa of the Ka'bah as if to receive barakah from it. I've seen people push and fight to go to the Hajr-al-Aswad (when kissing the Hajr is sunnah, while fighting and pushing to get to it is haraam). All this happens under the sight of the muttawween but it is obvious that both these acts have little to do with Sufism or Salafism, but with jahiliyyah.

this is not about grave worshipping, but erecting graves. If you have some shaafi quotes then please provide inshAllah. I did provide earlier some clear quotes from shaafi madhab though.

[Savviers]

this is not about grave worshipping, but erecting graves. If you have some shaafi quotes then please provide inshAllah. I did provide earlier some clear quotes from shaafi madhab though.

You'd have to ask a Shafi'i for this. For your quotes, they may have been cited by a non-Shafi'i. Many times, some Shafi'i ulama may be cited to show one side of the story but it may not be representative of the madhhab. Another issue that is given a similar treatment is the issue of the beard, where non-Shafi'is end up quoting some Shafi'is who held beliefs about the beard that were not the contemporary mu'tamad opinion of the madhhab. Similarly, some Hanafis, in their effort to legitimize things that are clearly forbidden in the Hanafi madhhab resort to referring to a small minority of Hanafis but largely rely on the opinion of non-Hanafis.

This is the case with this very issue of building over graves, which is forbidden in the Hanafi madhhab, but some people try to legitimize it by referring to minority opinion in the madhhab or to ulama outside of the madhhab. Salafis in general should not really have a problem with this difference of opinion, though, since there are varying differences of opinion among the Salafiyyah as well. Another controversial issue that comes to mind (upon which there is almost unanimous agreement as to its prohibition) is touching ghayr mahram women - and Yasir Qadhi doing this by shaking hands with some Egyptian woman. This was followed by people defending him and justifying his act by citing minority opinions.

[engacenus]

I think there is gross exaggeration going on here. Not a single Muslim would say that worshiping graves is acceptable. To suggest that it is somehow linked to Sufism is grossly disingenuous. The issue of building over graves, though, is an issue of Fiqh and there is a difference of opinion on this issue amongst the Shafi'is. Those who should be asked would be the Shafi'is since it is an issue of fiqh of their madhhab. But instead, a leap from building over graves to worshiping graves is being made, which none of the Shafi'is agree with either. Grave worshiping is a side effect of jahiliyyah, not Sufism nor due to ikhtilaaf in a madhhab. People do lots of weird thing without any reason. I've seen people rubbing the Kiswa of the Ka'bah as if to receive barakah from it. I've seen people push and fight to go to the Hajr-al-Aswad (when kissing the Hajr is sunnah, while fighting and pushing to get to it is haraam). All this happens under the sight of the muttawween but it is obvious that both these acts have little to do with Sufism or Salafism, but with jahiliyyah.

Please accept my apologies. I did not mean to intend that the grave worship is in any shape or form linked to sufism.

The only inference I meant was that the building of the structures inevitably has lead to severe bidah being conducted around them.

[ViktorialHDY]

Please accept my apologies. I did not mean to intend that the grave worship is in any shape or form linked to sufism.

The only inference I meant was that the building of the structures inevitably has lead to severe bidah being conducted around them.

Brother I was not referring to you in my post. I only quoted your post to expand upon it. Please forgive me for the misunderstanding and make du'a for me.

[Nicihntm]

You'd have to ask a Shafi'i for this. For your quotes, they may have been cited by a non-Shafi'i. Many times, some Shafi'i ulama may be cited to show one side of the story but it may not be representative of the madhhab. Another issue that is given a similar treatment is the issue of the beard, where non-Shafi'is end up quoting some Shafi'is who held beliefs about the beard that were not the contemporary mu'tamad opinion of the madhhab. Similarly, some Hanafis, in their effort to legitimize things that are clearly forbidden in the Hanafi madhhab resort to referring to a small minority of Hanafis but largely rely on the opinion of non-Hanafis.

This is the case with this very issue of building over graves, which is forbidden in the Hanafi madhhab, but some people try to legitimize it by referring to minority opinion in the madhhab or to ulama outside of the madhhab. Salafis in general should not really have a problem with this difference of opinion, though, since there are varying differences of opinion among the Salafiyyah as well. Another controversial issue that comes to mind (upon which there is almost unanimous agreement as to its prohibition) is touching ghayr mahram women - and Yasir Qadhi doing this by shaking hands with some Egyptian woman. This was followed by people defending him and justifying his act by citing minority opinions.

so those hanafis taht do this woudl have no right blasting "ghair muqalids" then? This sounds like pure hawa. they want soemthing to be halal so find a way to make it halal. Ive heard hanafis quote other madhabs on bid'ah hasanah too.

here is teh shaafi quotes:

Imam ash-Shafii said: "I prefer that the soil used for a grave be no more than that dug for that grave. I like to see a grave raised above the ground the length of a hand or so. I prefer not to erect a structure over a grave or to whitewash it, for indeed this resembles decoration and vanity, and death is not the time for either of these things. I have never seen the graves of the Muhajirin or Ansar plastered. I have seen the Muslim authorities destroying structures in graveyards, and I have not seen any jurists object to this."[Kitabul Umm]


Imam ash-Shaafi’i said: “I detest that a creature [of Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta’aala)] be sanctified to a degree that his tomb becomes like a mosque [to which Salaat is performed] the thing that leads people astray.” [Al-’Umm (Vol. 1, Pp. 246)]

Ibn Hajar al Haythami As-Shafi'i said in his az-Zawajir: (This is a collection of legal verdicts, pubhshed when king Al-Zahir decided to destroy all the buildings in the graveyards. Coeval Islamic scholars collectively supported him saying to do so was incumbent upon the ruler)

"We should not hesitate to destroy mosques and domes built over graves. These are worse than the mosque of adDirar, because these things are erected in disobedience to the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him. The Prophet, peace be upon him, has forbidden this and has ordered the destruction of raised graves. Every lamp or lantern placed over a grave must be removed. It is not correct to stop at a grave or make a vow at it. " as quoted in Fiqh-us-Sunnah

So I guess my question is, do the people at sunni forum have a problem with raising a shrine above a dead shaikh, and do you consider it to be a bad thing when its destoryed (overlooking whether its done in a wise manner)

[ñàéäèíã]

could it be argued that the guys in mali are also following a legitimate oppinion (i.e. that it is compulsory to destory raised graves) and as the new rulers they are implementing this opinion and they have clear daleel and so we should respect their opinion?

Especially if peope held views that opening this door would end the world, surely tahts not a permissable thing to leave

[searkibia]

so those hanafis taht do this woudl have no right blasting "ghair muqalids" then? This sounds like pure hawa. they want soemthing to be halal so find a way to make it halal. Ive heard hanafis quote other madhabs on bid'ah hasanah too.

here is teh shaafi quotes:

Imam ash-Shafii said: "I prefer that the soil used for a grave be no more than that dug for that grave. I like to see a grave raised above the ground the length of a hand or so. I prefer not to erect a structure over a grave or to whitewash it, for indeed this resembles decoration and vanity, and death is not the time for either of these things. I have never seen the graves of the Muhajirin or Ansar plastered. I have seen the Muslim authorities destroying structures in graveyards, and I have not seen any jurists object to this."[Kitabul Umm]


Imam ash-Shaafi’i said: “I detest that a creature [of Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta’aala)] be sanctified to a degree that his tomb becomes like a mosque [to which Salaat is performed] the thing that leads people astray.” [Al-’Umm (Vol. 1, Pp. 246)]

Ibn Hajar al Haythami As-Shafi'i said in his az-Zawajir: (This is a collection of legal verdicts, pubhshed when king Al-Zahir decided to destroy all the buildings in the graveyards. Coeval Islamic scholars collectively supported him saying to do so was incumbent upon the ruler)

"We should not hesitate to destroy mosques and domes built over graves. These are worse than the mosque of adDirar, because these things are erected in disobedience to the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him. The Prophet, peace be upon him, has forbidden this and has ordered the destruction of raised graves. Every lamp or lantern placed over a grave must be removed. It is not correct to stop at a grave or make a vow at it. " as quoted in Fiqh-us-Sunnah

So I guess my question is, do the people at sunni forum have a problem with raising a shrine above a dead shaikh, and do you consider it to be a bad thing when its destoryed (overlooking whether its done in a wise manner)

"people at sunni forum" are a diverse bunch. The majority of Hanafis here are Deobandis and you know very well that we have a big problem with building over graves so it isn't our place as lay Hanafis to justify the opposite. The Shafi'is will give you their answer once they see your post. Also, the words of Imam ash-Shafi'i are not necessarily the madhhab of the Shafi'is. I've mentioned the beard issue before, where the opinion of the contemporary Shafi'i madhhab differs from the view of Imam Shafi'i . The modern Shafi'i madhhab is based on the refinement of it by Imam an-Nawawi and Imam ar-Rifa'i .

could it be argued that the guys in mali are also following a legitimate oppinion (i.e. that it is compulsory to destory raised graves) and as the new rulers they are implementing this opinion and they have clear daleel and so we should respect their opinion?

Especially if peope held views that opening this door would end the world, surely tahts not a permissable thing to leave

As rulers, they have every right to do so, yes, but their doing so cannot be used as an example of the Shafi'i madhhab.

[Dfvgthyju]

So in effect your saying noone has a right to criticise what is happening in mali islamicly?

[bestonlinepharmasy2]

So in effect your saying noone has a right to criticise what is happening in mali islamicly?

Of course not - that's not what I'm saying. But to say that this or that practice is un-Islamic is not our right to do so. First of all, we are not scholars. Second of all, we are not Shafi'is. Does it make sense for the Ahnaaf to criticize the Hanabilah for not keeping their trousers above their ankles? Does it make sense for the Hanabilah to criticize the Ahnaaf for not reciting the tasmiyah before wudhu?

[IamRobot]

could it be argued that the guys in mali are also following a legitimate oppinion (i.e. that it is compulsory to destory raised graves) and as the new rulers they are implementing this opinion and they have clear daleel and so we should respect their opinion?

Especially if peope held views that opening this door would end the world, surely tahts not a permissable thing to leave

Uhm...didn't these "guys in mali" rebel against the rulers in the first place, which according to your fatwa is im-permissable? Or is this im-permissibility only when it comes to rebelling against certain rulers?

[Nadin Maison]

Of course not - that's not what I'm saying. But to say that this or that practice is un-Islamic is not our right to do so. First of all, we are not scholars. Second of all, we are not Shafi'is. Does it make sense for the Ahnaaf to criticize the Hanabilah for not keeping their trousers above their ankles? Does it make sense for the Hanabilah to criticize the Ahnaaf for not reciting the tasmiyah before wudhu?

my point is that it can be argued both ways i.e. respect the the opinion of those who erect graves or respect the opinion of those who consider graves should be levelled