[beckercpa]

If it has the arabic in it than it necessary to go through these procedures but if it does not have the arabic in it, I would just throw it away... Because the Quran is Arabic....

You think it is ok to throw out a translation of the meanings of the Qur'an?

[kavaTeexy]

This noise is no meek lamb. Lightening is electromagnetic energy but the thunder is mechanical energy.

What does this statement mean? Do you agree with me or not? Does lightning make a noise?

Even a meager instrument like supersonic jet created by us delivers enough of this mechanical energy that windows are shattered kilometers away. The thunder too has shattering effects there are examples of roof collapse because of striking of ligthening and thunder. I don't really understand your usage of "instrument" for a jet, but that's not important I guess. The Concorde passed overhead just 10kms high, causing a loud supersonic boom, but no windows were shattered. My point was though: do you know of any human ever having been killed by thunder or any noise?


And the praise by lightening should not be too difficult to understand. People do burst fire crackers to show joy. Even fire works are used in celebrations.
Am I so unclear? The English translation and the Arabic speakers I asked said the Koran speaks of thunder in 13:13.
The German version speaks of lightning in 13:13.

You claim one can use either. That is why I am asking whether light and sound for you are identical and whether either can be substituted for the other?

From our point of view this is not a significant query. My suggestion will be to focus on finding out whether there is God Almighty behind this or not. That is where we Muslims might be of some help. Make the best use of our abilities. Well, it should be. I have a book, which says it is the Koran - but we have established it is not the Koran. Can - according to your understanding - the book I have, have been authored by the god you worship? That is why I am asking the experts here, Muslims, on this forum on their definitions of their basis for their religion, the Koran.

[Senasivar]

All praises are due to Allah.
Sunniforum has brothers such as Maripat who dispell wisdom and guidance ( I don't want to destroy our respected brother by showering praise upon him).

When I first converted to Islam, I was gifted a Quran with Yusuf Ali translation and commentary. I later went to the library and checked out Quran which were from Ahmadiya, as well as mere translations from various nonMuslims which can be found at the local book store. I read through several of these and compared them.

Who is to say that the Salafi translation and commentary is so abhorrent that it misguides?
If you haven't read it, why would you discourage nonMuslims from reading it?

Are my brothers aware that there are contentious political issues about Muslims in Germany, namely that the ?

Are you aware that German political powers want to divide Muslims- Sunnis vs. Salafis- and demonize Salafis, rendering them personas non grata?

Meanwhile, the German govt is neck deep in Muslim blood in Afghanistan and elsewhere, with German mercenaries functioning in Iraq and Africa and Central Asia.

Well if you were gifted with so much insight, can you answer my question?

In case you forgot, my question was: can a book without any classic Arabic whatsoever be considered a valid and authentic Koran? If not, does a book which is similar to a Koran require the same respect as an authentic Koran?

If you know so much about the situation in Germany regarding Muslims and Salafis, can you explain to me why Muslim councils in Germany distance themselves from Salafis? Why are Salafis considered violent, when all they did is knife some policemen last week or 2 weeks ago? Why is it that Salafis denounce democracy, living in a democratic state? Why would any group require the host country to abandon their legal system and the constitution to accommodate the guests?

I consider your

far right political powers do NOT like that Muslims have not assimilated to their liking a gross misrepresentation of the situation - but maybe you can clarify how it is that in Germany the far right runs the National Security forces and the police and National Intelligence?

Since 1994, the German Bundeswehr has lost about 100 troops in deployments abroad, out of which 53 German soldiers and 3 policemen died in Afghanistan, where they are deployed by ISAF. Yeah, Germans are a brutal and bloody nation, sending their mercenaries everywhere to kill innocent Muslims. It seems you are more into spreading primitive propaganda than answering a simple question.

[BluewayAllere]

Brother StopS

I am bit lost at the way this conversation is heading. Seems to gone off at a tangent.
I am not a salafist but I like many thinks democracy is an overated concept of govrnance. Generally the democracy is subject to media manipulation, missleading people. People with dubious charcter to lead, in effect is in suvertiude economic might of few. It is worth considering that both political power and economic think tank are in cahoot with the present day's dire econimic situation. So people look or even opt for different model.
As a muslim, we believe Islamic model is the best way forward. It lays down clear ethics and boundary. It never celebrates the greed culture of a few and promotes it as a virtue for others to aspire. Profit is not the sole purpose of existance. UN security council with veto power do not represent world view and is UNDEMOCRATIC! Often the powerful countries violates treaty and suppourt violation of treaties forced on other poorer countires. So in reality UN holds little legitimacy. Economic influences is exerted in making decision by the rich countries generally to mantain the statusqueo.


As for salafist being violent is self evident from the fact that most of this adherent are simplton and tries to adopt a reductionist take on complex world. Hence they are in my opinion are like village idiot given authority. Thier socio-economic make up should be considered when tring to understand the rise of this evenglical protestanisation of Islam. They are incapeble of doing anything practical as their understanding verges on some sort of ism rather then due process.

No translation can be classed as Quran and as such reverance can't be the same. The rule of disposing of such items is not the same as Arabic Quran.
Once I picked up a bible from the floor from my friends (christian) house and told him not to put it on the floor lest one kicks the book, knowing full well it is the not authentic and has a lot objectionable contents.
As I have said earlier, in absense of other translation, one can read the Salafist translation. Ideally you should read exegesis at the same time. For a laymen, perhaps Mariful Quran would be a good start, availabe on the net and in this forum. It has both translation and commentaries.
Allahualam

[greekbeast]

Nomadic, could you please stop your typical "Salafis are evil"-talk. You don't have any idea about the situation of the muslims in Germany and therefore I request you not make any judgements about people you don't even know!

As I have said earlier, in absense of other translation, one can read the Salafist translation.

Thank you for you generosity...
The brothers from "DieWahreReligion", who distributed these free Qur`an translations, simply used the translation of Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Ibn Rassoul (who is not Salafi), but changed the translation of some Ayat with the translation of Frank Bubenheim (also not Salafi) and these two translations are the most accepted among all muslims in Germany. (I personally like the translation of Bubenheim more.)

They are incapeble of doing anything practical as their understanding verges on some sort of ism rather then due process.

LOL! If you would live in Germany you would laugh about what you said here, just like I'm laughing about it right now.

Insha`Allah I will respond to some of the things that StopS said in the next days.

To StopS:

Are you German?

[hellenmoranov]

What does this statement mean? Do you agree with me or not? Does lightning make a noise?

Both light and noise are created at the same time.
I don't really understand your usage of "instrument" for a jet, but that's not important I guess. The Concorde passed overhead just 10kms high, causing a loud supersonic boom, but no windows were shattered. My point was though: do you know of any human ever having been killed by thunder or any noise? Killing is unpleasant. For survival see this.
Am I so unclear? The English translation and the Arabic speakers I asked said the Koran speaks of thunder in 13:13.
The German version speaks of lightning in 13:13. Arabic is very nuanced language. Not being an Arabic student I can not tell the exact shade of the meaning. But in a translation the translator has to pick up the most suited word in the target language. This is the limitation of translation and this limitation is there in every translation process. It is your right to investigate the exact shade of the meaning of the word used in Arabic.
You claim one can use either. That is why I am asking whether light and sound for you are identical and whether either can be substituted for the other? In my mother tongue they say that light is thundering.
Well, it should be. I have a book, which says it is the Koran - but we have established it is not the Koran. Can - according to your understanding - the book I have, have been authored by the god you worship? That is why I am asking the experts here, Muslims, on this forum on their definitions of their basis for their religion, the Koran. You are asking whether the translation is original. The question is not ingenuous.

[MannyLopez]

If you mean, they can set up some masjed and insttitue or even so call relegious TV channel on the back of petrodollar hand out, then perhaps their role model is christian missionaries known for manipulation. Salf don't exist but lamadhabist religious neo fascist exist.
Ofcourse there are good people amoung them just like some fragrent flower growing out of cow dung!
DUE process- giving credit where it is due, not miss interpreting or missquoting and changing words to suite thier moronic notion of relegion. I have just been to KSA and there is a joke among the yamani - there is no thin salafist meaning they live on the money from KSA and enjoy a comfortable life unlike the others. Their masjed are will financed (petrodollar)!
It is better to stay unmarried if you are a sister then marry a mutah practicing Lamadhabist missogonist thugs.

Very hard hitting - just like a Aqeeq-e-Yamani. But is it for this thread?

[cyslespitocop]

The best option in such a situation would be for one to leave it in the local mosque. Even though it is not the Qur'an itself, any type of religious literature is to be handled in a respectful manner according to the teachings of Islam. For instance, we would even consider it unacceptable to dispose of a King James Bible by throwing it in the garbage as well, in spite of the fact that we do not agree with some of its contents.

Thumbs up!

[6Rexw51X]

Nomadic, what I really can't understand is how you could call someone like StopS as "brother" even though this person is known to have a youtube-account where he attacks muslims (like brother Hamza Tzortzis) and makes fun of them, but then at the same time you didn't even write a "wa 'alaykum assalam" to your brother in Islam? Yallah, khayr inscha`Allah.

First let me say some words regarding the situation of muslims in Germany:

Most muslims here are orginally from Turkey. As for the older generations among them: They came here to Germany in order to work. They have no real knowledge regarding Islam (i.e. "cultural muslims") and this becomes pretty clear when you see that their children have no idea about Islam and most of their children have no Adab and no Akhlaq at all.

The "muslim" youngsters here are in terrible state! Most youngsters commit Zina on a regular basis (my estimation: more than 90%), they dring alcohol, go to the disco and they do all kind of wrong things!

In 2005 the brother Pierre Vogel / Abu Hamzah (a german convert to Islam) began to make Da'wah to Islam by making Youtube-Videos in German language. Also other brothers started making Da'wah (like the brothers from "DieWahreReligion") and alhamdulillah it had a good effect on a part of the youngsters and people started to make Tawbah and to return to Islam. And not just that: Many people also started to convert to Islam.

Now ponder upon this point: There are mosques and "islamic" organizations here in Germany since many many years! But when we look whether that had any positive effects, we don't find anything positive! We see people who don't take their religion serious and we see youngsters, who have no idea about this beautiful religion!
And then some brothers started making Da'wah by making Videos and suddenly many muslim youngsters started returning to Islam and people even started to convert to Islam!!
So what does this mean?: These mosques and "islamic" organization existed all the years, but they did absolutely nothing!
They did not teach the people how to fear Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala! They did not teach them the importance of this Din and the importance of believing in Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala with your whole heart!
Subhanallah, one really asks oneself what they were doing all these years??

So, if you (Nomadic) want to tell me how evil Salafis are, then this simply does not reflect the reality!! Rather here in Germany no one makes Da'wah except the "evil Salafis".

If you mean, they can set up some masjed and insttitue or even so call relegious TV channel on the back of petrodollar hand out, then perhaps their role model is christian missionaries known for manipulation.

I'm not talking about setting up some masjid, but I'm speaking about making Da'wah.
As for your claim that their role model is christian missioniries known for manipulation, then I say:
So saying the following to the people is manupulating them as the chrisitian missioniaries do?: Telling them that there is one true God, who created the heavens and the earth and what is in between them and that He's the One who created us, and gave us the this life and therefore we should be grateful towards him and worship Him alone and live our lives as he ordered us.

Salf don't exist but lamadhabist religious neo fascist exist.

Please define what you mean by "lamadhabist"! Is someone who believes in Taqlid mutlaq, but not in Taqlid Shaykhsi a "lamadhabist"? I hope not, because otherwise the Hanabilah would be "lamadhabists", because they did not believe in the obligation of Taqlid Shakhsi!
According to the Hanabilah a layperson has no Madhab and he can ask any truthful scholar (i.e. Talid Mutlaq).
And the majority of the scholars did also not believe in Taqlid Shakhsi being obligatory!

It is better to stay unmarried if you are a sister then marry a mutah practicing Lamadhabist missogonist thugs.

This a well know thing among Madkhalis!
But a normal muslim (whether Salafi or something else) would not do such a thing!

petrodollar

The good old "petrodollar"-argument is such a worthless argument!

Since you're mentioning the "lamadhabists" all the time, maybe you could tell us why Barelwis are committing Shirk day and night even though they're not "lamadhabists"?

Here in Germany there is website, which claims to follow "traditional Islam" and this website has nothing better to do than to attack the "evil Wahhabis", because the "evil Wahhabis" say that one shouldn't call upon other than Allah ta'ala!
And these Zanadiqah accuse the "evil Wahhabis" of being "Ghayr-Muqallidun", because they claim that all 4 Madhahib have allowed the Shirkiyyat and the Bida' they're committing (which of course is a false claim)!!

So committing Shirk has become "traditional Islam"?

If you tell them to stop calling upon other than Allah ta'ala and explaining it to them, they answer by saying "You're sponsered by petrodollars...".

(The response to the claims of StopS will follow insha`Allah.)

[Acalsenunse]

I rather be called shriki muslim then a labmadabist.
I don't know of stopS and know nothing about his anti muslim sentiment. I will also adopt anti musim sentiment if the lamadhabist are suppose to examplify muslims.
Look mate!! the petrodollar arugment is no a figment of my imagination as you claim it.
What dawah are you talking about!! Just because one recieves airtime like Dr. Naiki, it means zilch. There are people grounded in traditon who became the means to guidance. But then again self gratification and gloating culture is what is common between christian evengelical missionaries and lamadhabist.
By the way Br. Hamza is a relative of mine and is refreshing. he seems to adopt Kalam and philisophy in his rebuttle. There were many reason why these people at the beging because the ghari muqalid organiation were good at capitalising and mobilsing providing information.
I lived in KSA for 3 months and know exactly lamadhabist tendency exist!!! uncivilised and dislike of following any rules! They had to adopt an auster form just to stop sexual revolution.

'the majority of the scholars did also not believe in Taqlid Shakhsi being obligatory!" This statement has to be seen within the context of time and history!! But then again context and history is not what lamadhabist are known for.

[Qxsumehj]

In case you forgot, my question was: can a book without any classic Arabic whatsoever be considered a valid and authentic Koran? If not, does a book which is similar to a Koran require the same respect as an authentic Koran?

Coming back to the topic of the thread - a translation is a translation. I shall not put a an English translation on top of the original Arabic.

I hope that answers the question.

[Hamucevasiop]

To Nomadic:

Sorry, I can't understand your hate towards other muslims.
Just to make something clear: I don't regard myself a "Salafi", nor did I ever do so.
And I don't like it when some people, who call themselves "Salafi", attack the 4 Madhahib, but this does not mean you can generalize like that!
And there is something that I really don't like and that is when some people attack the positions of the Hanabilah/Atharis, but they don't say "we are against this position of the Hanabilah", no they say "ohh these evil Salafis/Wahhabis, they...". Why don't these people simply say "I don't like this position of the Hanabilah/Atharis". Why??

I told you that the Hanabilah believe in Taqlid Mutlaq for the laypeople, but not in Taqlid Shakhsi and now you tell me something about the context of time and history?? Do you think you can tell the Hanabilah which positions they should have and which not??

And you are acting as if the "evil Wahhabis" have no knowledgable people among them and is if they are inventing new positions. Is someone like let's say Shaykh 'Abd al-'Aziz At-Tarifi not knowledgable?

I'll leave it at that, since you seem to have the same "black and white"-thinking regarding muslims as some wannabe-Salafis.

PS: You still didn't respond to my salam.



To StopS:

If you know so much about the situation in Germany regarding Muslims and Salafis, can you explain to me why Muslim councils in Germany distance themselves from Salafis?

Because these "muslim councils" in Germany are mainly hypocrites, who do not care about Islam, but they care about money and about pleasing their masters! And that's why they have no problem with distancing themselves from other muslims!
What have they done for the muslims in Germany until now??
Let's take an organisation like "Zentralrat der Muslime", which claims that it represents muslims, while they represent only themselves! What have they done for the muslims? Nothing!
Or let's take Ditib: What have they done for the muslims?? In their "mosques" the teach the people more secularism than Islam! But this is not surprising at all, when one knows that they're under the control of the Turkish state, which is a secular state (... what an irony! They say that religion and state has to be seperate, but at the same time the secular state says to the people what they should believe and what not!).

Why are Salafis considered violent, when all they did is knife some policemen last week or 2 weeks ago?

Why are you mixing two seperate issues? You were asking regarding the Qur`an and now you mention something completely different!
What you are saying allegedly happened on a demonstration in Bonn. Have you never heard of a demonstration escalating??

But let's mention what the demonstration was about. A group called Pro-Nrw went to several mosques and showed a caricature, which they falsely claim that it depicts our Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam).
So some muslims went to Bonn to demonstrate against these people! But the situation escalated during the demonstration.

Imagine if someone would go infront of synagogue and would insult the religion of the jews. Would Germany allow that? No! But when it comes to muslims, then it seems it's fully okay to go infront of their mosques and insult the person, whom they love more than themselves!

Why is it that Salafis denounce democracy, living in a democratic state? Why would any group require the host country to abandon their legal system and the constitution to accommodate the guests?

Maybe you dishonest person could tell us where the Salafis in Germany (for your info: Most people whom the media calls "Salafist" either only call themselves muslims or they also call themselves Salafi, but no one calls himself Salafist!) said that they want their host country to change their legal system and to implement Shari'ah instead?!?

What can a host country expect from its guest: It can expect that they don't go against the law, right? And the brothers, whom they accuse all sorts of things did not say that one should go against the law!
But can the host country expect from us muslims that we change our values? This is a matter of belief and conviction, so how can they demand such a thing?! Can they tell us what we should view as correct and what as wrong??
If anyone says that they can, then this means that he says that they can tell us that we should change our religion!

We as muslims believe that the Qur`an is the speech of the lord of the worlds and that it's better than any other speech! And the laws, which the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) implemented in Madinah, is in our conviction the best law and it's better than any man-made laws!
This is our belief. Has our host country the right to tell us that we should change this conviction and believe in their laws and values instead?? No!

The media started a big propaganda campaign against the brothers, who were distributing these free Qur`an translations.
What they also did all the time is that they mentioned things that the "evil Salafists" believe, but these things that they mentioned were things that all muslims believe!

For example they mentioned that "Salafists" believe that the Shari'ah law is better than any other law and this is something that all muslims believe! But the media also acts as if the brothers are trying to implement the Shari'ah here in the west, which of course is a lie! And the brothers whom they accuse, did not say that one should go against the law!
And they also mentioned that the "Salafists" believe that jews and christians, whom the message of Islam arrives and who do not accept it, will be in the hellfire. Again this is something that all muslims believe!
And they also mentioned that "Salafists" say that Islam is the only true religion and that all other religions are wrong. And again this is something that all muslims believe!

And they mentioned many many things, which all muslims believe.

If the media wants to tell us what we're allowed to believe and what not, then may I ask where their "freedom of opinion" and "freedom of religion" has gone??

a gross misrepresentation of the situation - but maybe you can clarify how it is that in Germany the far right runs the National Security forces and the police and National Intelligence?

Since 1994, the German Bundeswehr has lost about 100 troops in deployments abroad, out of which 53 German soldiers and 3 policemen died in Afghanistan, where they are deployed by ISAF. Yeah, Germans are a brutal and bloody nation, sending their mercenaries everywhere to kill innocent Muslims. It seems you are more into spreading primitive propaganda than answering a simple question.

What a joke!

Didn't Germany give America informations regarding which places it should bomb in Iraq? Yes, it did!
Does Germany not partipate in occupying Afghanistan? Yes, it does! What do they want from Afghanistan?
Didn't Germany - as the rest of the western countries - help the tyrant rulers in the muslim countries, so that they could oppress the people? Yes, it did!
Didn't Germany help training the Somali "security" forces, so that they can fight against muslims? Yes, it did!
Does the German media always make propaganda against Islam and muslims? Yes, it does! And I believe that they make this more than in any other western country!
And list goes on and on!

Well, it should be. I have a book, which says it is the Koran - but we have established it is not the Koran. Can - according to your understanding - the book I have, have been authored by the god you worship? That is why I am asking the experts here, Muslims, on this forum on their definitions of their basis for their religion, the Koran.

There is only one Qur`an and that's the Qur`an which was sent down on our Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and that Qur`an is in the Arabic language! So any translation is not the Qur`an itself, but a translation of it! And while the Arabic Qur`an is perfect, the translation is not perfect.

But at the same time one should mention the following: The main message of the Qur`an becomes also clear by reading a translation! A translation of the Qur`an simply helps one to understand the words of our Lord for those who do not understand Arabic.

And that's why I agree with the post of this brother:

The best option in such a situation would be for one to leave it in the local mosque. Even though it is not the Qur'an itself, any type of religious literature is to be handled in a respectful manner according to the teachings of Islam. For instance, we would even consider it unacceptable to dispose of a King James Bible by throwing it in the garbage as well, in spite of the fact that we do not agree with some of its contents.

[Xxmlqevq]

If it has the arabic in it than it necessary to go through these procedures but if it does not have the arabic in it, I would just throw it away... Because the Quran is Arabic....

Are you Muslim???

Ah, ok, then I got it right. So you are suggesting I compare the German translation of the Arabic with the English translation of the Arabic.


"Lightening and thunder come together" for humans in the 21st century yes. But this was not always the case, which is why I suppose different translations are used.
No, I don't think you can indiscriminately use either, as I do not know how lightning can praise anything as it does not make any noise and I do not know of thunder ever having punished/killed anyone as there is no electricity, just noise.

I agree completely with you on that one. Which is why I have asked people who actually speak classic Arabic and they have confirmed that this is in fact talking about thunder.

But we have already established that this book is not considered to be an authentic Koran due to its lack of the original Arabic.
I just wanted to make sure I get the details correct as there seems to be some disagreement here over the treatment of such text, when it is Koran-like or resembling the Koran.

Brother don't listen to every buddy here b/c some people are just laymen, and some are just fanatic illiterates, A Muslim never ever throws away the things which belongs to heavenly Books e.g. Torah, Bible, Quran, their translations, their commentaries etc..
Here are some knowledgeable persons like Godilali he belongs to Al Azhar University and sensible brother Maripat and some others.

A/c to your post:

And the praise by lightening should not be too difficult to understand. People do burst fire crackers to show joy. Even fireworks are used in celebrations.

Firstly of it is your wrong idea that lightning doesn’t make noise.

Secondly Brother Maripat, here is Allah Ta’ala is talking about the praise of Lightning not how to use Lightning.

Thirdly Allah Ta’ala Itself clears the issues:

تُسَبِّحُ لَهُ السَّمَاوَاتُ السَّبْعُ وَالْأَرْضُ وَمَنْ فِيهِنَّ وَإِنْ مِنْ شَيْءٍ إِلَّا يُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِهِ وَلَكِنْ لَا تَفْقَهُونَ تَسْبِيحَهُمْ إِنَّهُ كَانَ حَلِيمًا غَفُورًا

The seven heavens and the earth and whatever is in them exalt Him. And there is not a thing except that it exalts [Allah] by His praise, but you do not understand their [way of] exalting. Indeed, He is ever Forbearing and Forgiving. 17:44


And He also says:
اصْبِرْ عَلَى مَا يَقُولُونَ وَاذْكُرْ عَبْدَنَا دَاوُودَ ذَا الْأَيْدِ إِنَّهُ أَوَّابٌ (17) إِنَّا سَخَّرْنَا الْجِبَالَ مَعَهُ يُسَبِّحْنَ بِالْعَشِيِّ وَالْإِشْرَاقِ (18) وَالطَّيْرَ مَحْشُورَةً كُلٌّ لَهُ أَوَّابٌ (19)

Be patient over what they say and remember Our servant, David, the possessor of strength; indeed, he was one who repeatedly turned back [to Allah]. Indeed, We subjected the mountains [to praise] with him, exalting [Allah] in the [late] afternoon and [after] sunrise. And the birds were assembled, all with him repeating [praises]. 38:17-19


The overall meaning is that everything in this universe exalting God that is He is only one, on one is like him, nor in essence neither in attributes, don’t have humanly attributes like wives, children etc. Only the Humans and Demon (among the non-believers) deny this fact, therefore it is greatest crime of this universe that on one commit.


Hence God says:

تَكَادُ السَّمَاوَاتُ يَتَفَطَّرْنَ مِنْهُ وَتَنْشَقُّ الْأَرْضُ وَتَخِرُّ الْجِبَالُ هَدًّا (90) أَنْ دَعَوْا لِلرَّحْمَنِ وَلَدًا (91) وَمَا يَنْبَغِي لِلرَّحْمَنِ أَنْ يَتَّخِذَ وَلَدًا (92) إِنْ كُلُّ مَنْ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ إِلَّا آتِي الرَّحْمَنِ عَبْدًا (93)

The heavens almost rupture therefrom and the earth splits open and the mountains collapse in devastation that they attribute to the Most Merciful a son. And it is not appropriate for the Most Merciful that He should take a son. There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant. 19:90-93


Now if there is any doubt left behind then please ask.

[Konidurase]

Secondly Brother Maripat, here is Allah Ta’ala is talking about the praise of Lightning not how to use Lightning.

akhi.
Basically the problem for a non-Muslim, or even a new Muslim who is not familiar with the tone of the Noble Qur'an, even a small point sometimes presents a big hurdle. And, as the experience shows, once they get a handle on a thing or two then they just figure out the things on their own just like a jigsaw puzzle. Banned user StopS finds us Muslims some sort of peculiar sub-species of Homo Sapiens, that we are for we are believers, but he yet can not get a handle over the things. May Allah (SWT) guide us and him on the right path.

[LeviBrawn]

Brother StopS

I am bit lost at the way this conversation is heading. Seems to gone off at a tangent.
I am not a salafist but I like many thinks democracy is an overated concept of govrnance. Generally the democracy is subject to media manipulation, missleading people. People with dubious charcter to lead, in effect is in suvertiude economic might of few. It is worth considering that both political power and economic think tank are in cahoot with the present day's dire econimic situation. So people look or even opt for different model.
As a muslim, we believe Islamic model is the best way forward. It lays down clear ethics and boundary. It never celebrates the greed culture of a few and promotes it as a virtue for others to aspire. Profit is not the sole purpose of existance. UN security council with veto power do not represent world view and is UNDEMOCRATIC! Often the powerful countries violates treaty and suppourt violation of treaties forced on other poorer countires. So in reality UN holds little legitimacy. Economic influences is exerted in making decision by the rich countries generally to mantain the statusqueo.


As for salafist being violent is self evident from the fact that most of this adherent are simplton and tries to adopt a reductionist take on complex world. Hence they are in my opinion are like village idiot given authority. Thier socio-economic make up should be considered when tring to understand the rise of this evenglical protestanisation of Islam. They are incapeble of doing anything practical as their understanding verges on some sort of ism rather then due process.

No translation can be classed as Quran and as such reverance can't be the same. The rule of disposing of such items is not the same as Arabic Quran.
Once I picked up a bible from the floor from my friends (christian) house and told him not to put it on the floor lest one kicks the book, knowing full well it is the not authentic and has a lot objectionable contents.
As I have said earlier, in absense of other translation, one can read the Salafist translation. Ideally you should read exegesis at the same time. For a laymen, perhaps Mariful Quran would be a good start, availabe on the net and in this forum. It has both translation and commentaries.
Allahualam

It seems I am considered dangerous for the members of the SunniForum, so I have been put on the so-called “miserable user” list, which means I will get a message “The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later.” 99% of the time to stop me from doing anything without the SunniForum having to resort to the embarrassing censorship ban.


Yes, this thread had gone from a harmless question to a politically infused and heated thread, where agitators are throwing around their stupid slogans and propaganda. Pity. I thought people here were friendly and realistic. I was wrong.

[Nubtoubrem]

Brother StopS

I am bit lost at the way this conversation is heading. Seems to gone off at a tangent.
I am not a salafist but I like many thinks democracy is an overated concept of govrnance. Generally the democracy is subject to media manipulation, missleading people. People with dubious charcter to lead, in effect is in suvertiude economic might of few. It is worth considering that both political power and economic think tank are in cahoot with the present day's dire econimic situation. So people look or even opt for different model.
As a muslim, we believe Islamic model is the best way forward. It lays down clear ethics and boundary. It never celebrates the greed culture of a few and promotes it as a virtue for others to aspire. Profit is not the sole purpose of existance. UN security council with veto power do not represent world view and is UNDEMOCRATIC! Often the powerful countries violates treaty and suppourt violation of treaties forced on other poorer countires. So in reality UN holds little legitimacy. Economic influences is exerted in making decision by the rich countries generally to mantain the statusqueo.


As for salafist being violent is self evident from the fact that most of this adherent are simplton and tries to adopt a reductionist take on complex world. Hence they are in my opinion are like village idiot given authority. Thier socio-economic make up should be considered when tring to understand the rise of this evenglical protestanisation of Islam. They are incapeble of doing anything practical as their understanding verges on some sort of ism rather then due process.

No translation can be classed as Quran and as such reverance can't be the same. The rule of disposing of such items is not the same as Arabic Quran.
Once I picked up a bible from the floor from my friends (christian) house and told him not to put it on the floor lest one kicks the book, knowing full well it is the not authentic and has a lot objectionable contents.
As I have said earlier, in absense of other translation, one can read the Salafist translation. Ideally you should read exegesis at the same time. For a laymen, perhaps Mariful Quran would be a good start, availabe on the net and in this forum. It has both translation and commentaries.
Allahualam

It seems I am considered dangerous for the members of the SunniForum, so I have been put on the so-called “miserable user” list, which means I will get a message “The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later.” 99% of the time to stop me from doing anything without the SunniForum having to resort to the embarrassing censorship ban.


Yes, this thread had gone from a harmless question to a politically infused and heated thread, where agitators are throwing around their stupid slogans and propaganda. Pity. I thought people here were friendly and realistic. I was wrong.

[SonicPs]

To StopS:


Because these "muslim councils" in Germany are mainly hypocrites, who do not care about Islam, but they care about money and about pleasing their masters! And that's why they have no problem with distancing themselves from other muslims!
What have they done for the muslims in Germany until now??
Let's take an organisation like "Zentralrat der Muslime", which claims that it represents muslims, while they represent only themselves! What have they done for the muslims? Nothing!
Or let's take Ditib: What have they done for the muslims?? In their "mosques" the teach the people more secularism than Islam! But this is not surprising at all, when one knows that they're under the control of the Turkish state, which is a secular state (... what an irony! They say that religion and state has to be seperate, but at the same time the secular state says to the people what they should believe and what not!).

You are the typical example of why Muslims have such a bad reputation.

You have no knowledge, no education and no idea what you are doing. You just blindly throw around mud and hope it sticks.

I asked an innocent knowledge question. You come in and insert your political ideology, which is obviously trying to discredit any non-Muslim based ideology and does not shy away from blatant lying and spreading false information. I hope you are proud of what you see in the mirror every morning.

[gundas]

To StopS:

Because these "muslim councils" in Germany are mainly hypocrites, who do not care about Islam, but they care about money and about pleasing their masters! And that's why they have no problem with distancing themselves from other muslims!
What have they done for the muslims in Germany until now??
Let's take an organisation like "Zentralrat der Muslime", which claims that it represents muslims, while they represent only themselves! What have they done for the muslims? Nothing!
Or let's take Ditib: What have they done for the muslims?? In their "mosques" the teach the people more secularism than Islam! But this is not surprising at all, when one knows that they're under the control of the Turkish state, which is a secular state (... what an irony! They say that religion and state has to be seperate, but at the same time the secular state says to the people what they should believe and what not!).

You are the typical example of why Muslims have such a bad reputation.

You have no knowledge, no education and no idea what you are doing. You just blindly throw around mud and hope it sticks.

I asked an innocent knowledge question. You come in and insert your political ideology, which is obviously trying to discredit any non-Muslim based ideology and does not shy away from blatant lying and spreading false information. I hope you are proud of what you see in the mirror every morning.

[ultimda horaf]

Bismillah Ir-Rehman Ir-Raheem

Peace, Brother StopS:

May Allah guide you, me, and all of us to the Straight Path.

(In response to post #35.)

Subhanallah, Brother StopS, may I be perfectly honest? You are not a danger to SunniForumers but to yourself, Brother, if you would only look into your conscience and heart's mirror. People who have submitted to Allah do not look to the left or to the right, but we look to the Straight Path where our Lord's pleasure lies with us Insha-Allah. Then, Brother, is it not the one who walks a path other than the Straight Path who is in danger?

Brother, please, stop affecting an attitude; you do not care for us, and Masha-Allah, that is blatantly clear from the beginning. However, Brother, Insha-Allah, we care for our brothers and sisters in humanity and wish for them the same as we wish for ourselves. Whether you accept this or not, it is true. If you perceive other than that, then maybe you should look to your own attitude and accept responsibility for your actions.

Thank you for listening.

If I have said anything that is good and true, it is from Allah, and anything other than that is my own mistake.

[loolitoertego]

Bismillah Ir-Rehman Ir-Raheem

Peace, Brother StopS:

May Allah guide you, me, and all of us to the Straight Path.

(In response to post #35.)

Subhanallah, Brother StopS, may I be perfectly honest? You are not a danger to SunniForumers but to yourself, Brother, if you would only look into your conscience and heart's mirror. People who have submitted to Allah do not look to the left or to the right, but we look to the Straight Path where our Lord's pleasure lies with us Insha-Allah. Then, Brother, is it not the one who walks a path other than the Straight Path who is in danger?

Brother, please, stop affecting an attitude; you do not care for us, and Masha-Allah, that is blatantly clear from the beginning. However, Brother, Insha-Allah, we care for our brothers and sisters in humanity and wish for them the same as we wish for ourselves. Whether you accept this or not, it is true. If you perceive other than that, then maybe you should look to your own attitude and accept responsibility for your actions.

Thank you for listening.

If I have said anything that is good and true, it is from Allah, and anything other than that is my own mistake.

Thank you for trying. Sorry, but you are equally naive and deluded.