[qilmuz6v]

From here: http://sheikhhamza.com/transcript/Rethinking-Reform



Shaykh Hamza YUSUF: Now*[16], there is an argument here about British Islam, I wanted to talk about that and then make my closing remarks. #00:46:19-0# There's an argument somehow that the British Muslims need to 'assimilate.' They need to 'fully become British' and there's this problem with multiculturalism; multiculturalism is threatening the cohesion of our society. I'm amazed by the idea of cohesion - I'd like to see it, where all this wonderful cohesion is! I think people who are in their seventies in this room can remember how "cohesive" neighbourhoods were sixty years ago/seventy years ago, they're much less so today; and I'm old enough to remember how my neighbourhood was and how my neighbourhood is today. So we have - social fragmentation is a problem everywhere. Now, the argument that America - and I find it extra-ordinary that Brits will tolerate this from your politicians! - of saying ''Look at America! How cohesive they are! [AUDIENCE LAUGHTER] They all pledge allegiance to the flag, y'know they have Thanksgiving! Everybody has a national Turkey day, and y'know... why can't we have a national Pheasant day...? Or maybe that�s too upper-crusty, maybe a national Shepherd's Pie day...?'' [Audience LAUGHTER] Seriously.




YUSUF: But one of the things that I love about England is that you've always tolerated eccentric uncles! Why can't you tolerate eccentric religions? Really! I mean, what's so wrong with that? This country was forged in religious wars; religious and tribal wars to a certain degree, it was forged in that - you've learned the lessons of those wars. Britain is one of the most tolerant societies in the world, it really is! [APPLAUSE] And like Dorothy Sayer - Dorothy Sayer is one of my favourite theologians - she's a mystery writer too, but she was a good theologian. Dorothy Sayer said 'the British people are slow to anger, but when they get angry they behave like fools,' and there's probably a lot of truth in that, but the fact that they're slow to anger; that's one of the most precious virtues in the Islamic tradition - 'hilm', which is the ability to fore-bear others; to be slow to anger. 00:50:22-3




So, what's fascinating to me about this is first of all America has always been a multicultural society, we have never been a cohesive society. We have people in America that speak their own forms of English! Really! And British people would say we all speak our own form of English in America but (laughing) y'know... look... we have people - I can't understand them - we have a language called 'Ebonics'. We have a 'Gumbo' language - Jambalaya and a crawfish pie and filet gumbo? 'cause tonight, I'm gonna meet, ma cher amio?'' I mean, do you understand...? I don't understand it, it's a Hank Williams song... I mean he knew what it was about because it's a Louisiana dialect; I don't know what it is! And I'm sure you've got people up in Yorkshire that you can't tell what they're saying (laughing) y'know, but look, the reality of it is America - we have people in America driving around in buggies! In buggies! They're debating whether or not to put rubber tires on those buggies! That's what they're debating in their community, and I'm not making this up! America has - we have places in my state that says ''Siabla Englais.'' That means ''We speak English here.'' I'm not making this up! We have seven generation Chinese in San-Francisco China Town that do not speak English. They have been in the United States for seven generations - this is America! So this idea - this fantasy - that some of these British politicians have of bringing this 'wonderful cohesive America' over here? Good luck, my friends. [AUDIENCE

[Nypbscao]

“The hadiths are a source of error except for the Fuqaha.” but not the Quran? sheer hypocricy

what a false assumption about Secular Europe, and then extremely inciteful and misleading quote of the Quran that furthers the false assumption. then based on his false assumption, misleading quote, then even more error in the conclusion.

Europe is not "Jews" and "Christians" and just that. Its not a monolith youve insinuated with your "NON-ERROR" Quran quote. Its hugely more complex, and hugely more diverse in opinion today.
Even within the Jew and Christian context its extremely diverse.

This is probably the worst error quote you could have for this thread. The same shariah enforcing pig-headed numbskulls that love to see things in us v them. A most damaging attitude to this thread flimsily sanctified by the Holy Book.

Using the Quran to further your errors and then putting in bold how you know of errors. What a smug self righteous hypocricy!
How any different to those who say Quran says "slay the infidel where you find them"? False assumption, misleading quote, error in conclusion.

what a hypocricy!

That Quote of the Quran and the meaning of 'Millah' is directly from SHAYKH HAMZA YUSUF's talk. Not my own interpretation.


Edit: Calling someone who enforces Shariah a pig headed numbskulls is not fit for a Muslim.

[MyOwnStyle]

from last few days...i saw manny banned...!

[qilmuz6v]

[QUOTE=amr123;789910]

Calling someone who enforces Shariah a pig headed numbskulls is not fit for a Muslim. Do you know who she was talking about? They make statements to the media (I personally think they are employed by the British Intelligence Agencies to stir up trouble and arrest extremists) that they are now making East London a Shariah Law area and they stick posters everywhere saying this is a Shariah Law area. This is stupidity, Anjum Chaudry and his group of fools are trouble makers.

[gambleingsites]

[QUOTE=Abu Zakir;790849]

Do you know who she was talking about? They make statements to the media (I personally think they are employed by the British Intelligence Agencies to stir up trouble and arrest extremists) that they are now making East London a Shariah Law area and they stick posters everywhere saying this is a Shariah Law area. This is stupidity, Anjum Chaudry and his group of fools are trouble makers.

salafi terrorists some of which are linked to the london takfeeris im sure come under the banner of those who do more harm to islam and muslims than even shaytaan.

as was stated by hadhrat imam ghazalli.

AND ALLAH KNOWS BEST

[expabsPapsgag]

always agreed fully with most of your views Ahmed bhai. shaykh abul hasan ali nadwi's talk always hit the bullseye ....your probs banging your head against the wall though on this thread :-(

[viagradiscounttt]

[QUOTE=Abu Zakir;790849]

Do you know who she was talking about? They make statements to the media (I personally think they are employed by the British Intelligence Agencies to stir up trouble and arrest extremists) that they are now making East London a Shariah Law area and they stick posters everywhere saying this is a Shariah Law area. This is stupidity, Anjum Chaudry and his group of fools are trouble makers.

Fools !! Are you kidding ? They are smart guys !! Part of Hegelian Dialectic !!
Bankers need people to cause an action which will generate a reaction from the native British population !!

Why Muslim communities in the UK can not keep those trouble makers under house arrest ? Or , run a counter-campaign against those followers of Anjum Chaudry ?

[Qvqnubpj]

Integration to me is being tolerant of difference within different cultures residing alongside one another, respecting those difference (whether you personally agree to them or not). Sadly most people think integration means 'become one of us'. There should be no difference which to me states intolerance.

I see intolerance in the UK - anything different to the culture here, its like people cannot comprehend! I also experience a hint of conceit. Their way is the best.

Totally different experience in states ... California is very multicultural and people generally accept you for who you are. They don't have a preconceived idea of what one should be like. But I guess that would be due to the vast number of different cultures that one cannot really dominate?

I agree with this.

Generally speaking it depends where in the UK. Where I am most people get along well, we all understand the cultural references having been born and raised here and so can relate much better to them. We don't make it out like our relationship troubles is so much more different than their issues, or our financial problems are different to theirs, or if young adults are struggling and cannot afford a house to live in is any different from their pressures to see their children setup stable homes. These are societal issues that affect everyone and we need to come together to tackle them. Nothing to do with religion. This is our social contract. Think Madinah in the early days.

Generally it means to live and let live and to be a cooperative person as we achieve more this way. You can have your beliefs, they can have theirs, you may not agree but you're still amicable. Unfortunately, we live in a time of self-entitlement which means any tom, **** and harry thinks he can tell others how to live their life or whats best for them despite being 16 and saw a 5 min islamic lecture / or racist propoganda and accepted it as gospel because it is on youtube.

[gambleingsites]

always agreed fully with most of your views Ahmed bhai. shaykh abul hasan ali nadwi's talk always hit the bullseye ....your probs banging your head against the wall though on this thread :-(

and the last 7 years

that stops at this ramadhans first roza
alhamdulillah allah s.w.t. has opened other doors for me
and there i will focus
unless allah s.w.t. pulls me for other things too
as he wishes,i will submit

you will see me less here too

[zzarratusstra]

In Britain the term 'British culture' is used, but if you ask 10 'typical' British people what British culture is, they will either not be able to give you an answer, or if they do, their answers will probably vary, which begs the question, which culture do you want us to integrate in to?

[tLO0hFNy]

if integrating means they stay religious Muslims but get along with everyone this is good

if integrating means they are lost into the morass of sin and disbelief along with most of the rest of society, what a sad thing that would be.

[gambleingsites]

if integrating means they stay religious Muslims but get along with everyone this is good

if integrating means they are lost into the morass of sin and disbelief along with most of the rest of society, what a sad thing that would be.

the second one is cultural assimilation

[gambleingsites]

Ha - brother you beat me to the punchline.....

jazakallah brother,i believe its very important that we learn the importance of words and terms especially if we are to live with our non muslim neighbours

it was also recommended in 1982 dewsbury markaz opening bayan by molana hasan ali nadwi
sadly many dont

another term is pluralism..... religious pluralism

[valensds]

jazakallah brother,i believe its very important that we learn the importance of words and terms especially if we are to live with our non muslim neighbours

it was also recommended in 1982 dewsbury markaz opening bayan by molana hasan ali nadwi
sadly many dont

another term is pluralism..... religious pluralism

I read the comments by shaykh Nadwi (rh).

However, I do NOT see from him any acceptance of integration or 'pluralism' as defined by the authority and power of disbelievers.
The concept of pluralism and integration is ultimately defined by how those in power define it. And those out of power must choose to either obey or disobey and make/follow their own path. Pluralism as defined by disbelieving powers doesn't only mean acceptance of apostasy, but acceptance of heretical groups such as Qadiani, Bahai, Alevi, etc. It is the intentional dissolution of 'aqidah'- tight knot of belief in the doctrine of Islam. The enemies of Allah WANT believers to voluntarily loosen our tight grip on the doctrine of Islam in order that we 'go along to get along'. Because it is that in which Satan himself cannot untie.


Shaykh Nadwi (rh) cannot be held responsible for the issues we are addressing today regarding integration. in 1982 speech, He did NOT issue a specific ruling addressing goals, objectives, methods, for Muslims in nonMuslim disbelieving countries who have increased their war on Islam.

The reality is the enemies of Allah have intensified their war on Islam. THEY are the ones pressing the matter. They have intensified their greed, their demands, their violence, their expectations from Muslims. Capitulation is NOT the answer. And Shaykh Nadwi (rh) did NOT say we should capitulate to their evil so we can live "peacefully".

[TMQ 68:8-13] Therefore obey not thou the rejecters (8)
Who would have had thee compromise, that they may compromise. (9)
Neither obey thou each feeble oath-monger, (10)
Detracter, spreader abroad of slanders, (11)
Hinderer of the good, transgressor, malefactor (12)
Greedy therewithal, intrusive. (13) As one can see, Allah openly confronts the evil enemies, crushing them with exposing their despicable characters and conduct. One has to ask: do the leaders of Western countries fit these powerful descriptions from the Lord of the Worlds? Should we really capitulate to them- go along to get along?

[tLO0hFNy]

Those two statements illustrate the difference between INTEGRATION and ASSIMILATION - integration is about maintaining good relations and contributing positively whilst staying true to one's own moral and religious conscience. But assimilation is a totally different matter - it is the process by which Muslims lose their religious and moral compass and literally and adopt prevalent or apparently dominant cultural practises of a society such as the ''pub culture''.

Assimilation means you try and copy the behaviour of others but integration is more about giving something to society whilst staying true to your religious and moral sentiments.

the second one is cultural assimilation

What worries me is that a lot of the politicians and journalists who talk about the need for integration obviously don't really mean integratation when they say it - they mean assimilation.