[Qynvtlur]

[QUOTE=Abu Zakir;789776]

Why would a Muslim be so keen to ignore the obvious Riba in the Capitalist system? Maybe they want to reform Islam to fit into the dominant Capitalist frame.

Bro we would just keep on arguing. You can keep on thinking capitalism is solely riba and I will keep on thinking capitalism by definition doesnot necessitate riba dealings. An Islamic society can be capitalist as have been many Muslim merchants and communities of past and present. If I look at my home town we have big Muslim entrepreneurs in all major business industries and many of them dont deal in loans at all. So? Is there participitaion in profit making haram? Owning capital like maize mills and big confectionaries and bakeries, cement factories and trading with intent of profit, by means of employing labour, land and other capital which they pursued or acquired through halal means. Many Muslim entrepreneurs started small and now are big names. WE have many examples of them who have tried and been true to ISlamic morals and Quranic teachings. You can blend peoples heads with abstract notions and connect complex and confusing relationships and make your own definitions of capitalism. You are neither being true to academia where you selectively pursue definitions and concepts of capitalism as per your lens and views nor are you true to Islamic tradition by making something haram, many of the capitalistic concepts which are within halal framework aside from the ones ulema have told us are clearly haram ones.

[dalnecymync]

[Junrlaeh]

I already said trade for profit is halal and natural, so why are you arguing as if I am saying the opposite? Why are you so keen to ignore riba and banking as part and parcel of the Capitalist system? Why do you want Muslims to accept the current system is halal?

Do you even know what central banks do? Do you know what fiat currencies are and if they are halal? Do you know that one does not have to take out a loan but just by using the paper currency and conforming in paying taxes and living by all the other regulations one is living in a riba economy and giving it power?

Ron Paul: End the Fed and Restore Sound Money
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=XvTekMndCvo#!
4 minutes 14 seconds long

Ron Paul shows clearly why American Capitalism is not Islamic it allows a few elites to control the economy and the livelihoods of billions of people around the world because of the fiat dollar reserve currency status. Are corporations as defined by Capitalist laws acceptable in Islamic law? No they are not.


[QUOTE=mubakr;789779]

Bro we would just keep on arguing. You can keep on thinking capitalism is solely riba and I will keep on thinking capitalism by definition doesnot necessitate riba dealings. An Islamic society can be capitalist as have been many Muslim merchants and communities of past and present. If I look at my home town we have big Muslim entrepreneurs in all major business industries and many of them dont deal in loans at all. So? Is there participitaion in profit making haram? Owning capital like maize mills and big confectionaries and bakeries, cement factories and trading with intent of profit, by means of employing labour, land and other capital which they pursued or acquired through halal means. Many Muslim entrepreneurs started small and now are big names. WE have many examples of them who have tried and been true to ISlamic morals and Quranic teachings. You can blend peoples heads with abstract notions and connect complex and confusing relationships and make your own definitions of capitalism. You are neither being true to academia where you selectively pursue definitions and concepts of capitalism as per your lens and views nor are you true to Islamic tradition by making something haram, many of the capitalistic concepts which are within halal framework aside from the ones ulema have told us are clearly haram ones.

[DeronBoltonRen]

i respect divergent views. Humans are all different,..... ?

The thing with arguments is you better know when your time and effort is not worth it , real quick.
Just like in real life the arguments on internet can sometimes lower your IQ

Just because people are educated ( have a lot of info stored in their brain ) do not make them intelligent . The ego ( nafs ) makes us stupid.

[Qynvtlur]

I already said trade for profit is halal and natural, so why are you arguing as if I am saying the opposite? Why are you so keen to ignore riba and banking as part and parcel of the Capitalist system? Why do you want Muslims to accept the current system is halal?

Do you even know what central banks do? Do you know what fiat currencies are and if they are halal? Do you know that one does not have to take out a loan but just by using the paper currency and conforming in paying taxes and living by all the other regulations one is living in a riba economy and giving it power?

Ron Paul: End the Fed and Restore Sound Money
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=XvTekMndCvo#!
4 minutes 14 seconds long

Ron Paul shows clearly why American Capitalism is not Islamic it allows a few elites to control the economy and the livelihoods of billions of people around the world because of the fiat dollar reserve currency status. Are corporations as defined by Capitalist laws acceptable in Islamic law? No they are not.

now you have gone from capitalism to capitalist societies. Its like talking about islam and muslim societies. Taliban, alqaeda, alshabab are muslim societies. you still ignoring the definition of capitalism quoted which is a standard high school summary we learn. Go read a simple introductory book on it. Riba and banking ethics are seperate concepts. I can trade with gold currency and partcipate in capitalism.

[wbeachcomber]

yes but it happens in any family

reg- capitalism has many definitions, I would agree also Muhammad PBUH was capitalist as he kept property (and traded with it).
The right to keep privat kapital/property and right to trade freely is core of capitalism in opposite to planned economies where people can not trade, only state trades and is owner of companies. The conditions of trade are most probably decisive how the capitalism is perceived if allowes riba, unfair practices, or it is more social oriented etc.
Anyway I dont know how loan system functions in islamic banks - would be intersting to know
w salam

[Junrlaeh]

Riba and banking ethics are seperate concepts. I can trade with gold currency and partcipate in capitalism.

Where can you trade in gold currency? All modern Capitalist states use fiat currency and they force you to use their currency it is also known as 'legal tender laws'. You are forced to use their money because taxes are only collected in their fiat currency, if you buy and sell using other currency you will be depriving the state out of its tax revenue and they will not like that. They like their cut from all transactions. I would not expect kafir economists and Capitalists to critique riba or make it a part of their definition of Capitalism. It can be argued that the discipline of Economics is a pseudo-science and economists largely act as a preistly class justifying riba and interest. Of course I am talking about Capitalism/Capitalist societies there is no difference as far as I am concerned.

[Junrlaeh]

Unfair or unislamic practices in Capitalism:

1) Cartelized money supply (you can only use the money they give you and supply) you are not free to choose your own currency. Supply of the currency is in the hands of private banks using fractional reserve lending, meaning this gives power to determene the value of the unit of currency to afew.

2) High taxation and many individual transactions are taxed, this means the state needs to keep track of all transactions, this is like Big Brother Surveillence and spying.

3) The State creates regulations purporting to protect consumers but in fact it is mostly controlling the market creating red tape and barriers to entry so other firms cannot enter the market and the few small firms remain dominant. Search on the Internet for barriers to entry and regulatory capture.

4) Accounting and Bookeeping in Capitalist societies relies on Kafir laws, these laws determene what a corporations is and how it operates and Islam prohibits many of these legal creations.

There are probably others, but for now these are the big ones, they create controlled markets, fraud, oligarchy, cartels and a power elite. It also contains the seeds of its own destruction as it creates lazy societies and people become slave like instead of being productive, it may take a long time but eventually the culture will collapse or it will become more fascistic to try and control people more.

Two laws are vital for any society to become better.

1) All Contracts between free individuals are fuly self disclosed and honoured by people who have agreed to it.

2) You harm no one nor do you encroach upon another.

These two laws become enhanced by individuals who live by the deen of Islam, have private property and live by all the other laws of Islam.

yes but it happens in any family

reg- capitalism has many definitions, I would agree also Muhammad PBUH was capitalist as he kept property (and traded with it).
The right to keep privat kapital/property and right to trade freely is core of capitalism in opposite to planned economies where people can not trade, only state trades and is owner of companies. The conditions of trade are most probably decisive how the capitalism is perceived if allowes riba, unfair practices, or it is more social oriented etc.
Anyway I dont know how loan system functions in islamic banks - would be intersting to know
w salam

[wbeachcomber]

Two laws are vital for any society to become better.

1) All Contracts between free individuals are fuly self disclosed and honoured by people who have agreed to it.

2) You harm no one nor do you encroach upon another. these two are great, good to realize deeply

w alikum assalam