[eFDMBwKH]

The Kuffa care too much about destruction of sufi shrines in Timbuktu.

But when the criminal is their co-coreligionist Bashar they are in total oblivion. Naked hypocrisy.

Let see how this Masajid is destroyed by Asad in Telbeseh, Homs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98KED7ztrY4


Tens of Masajids are being destroyed in Syria in a similar fashion.

[NeroASERCH]

I remember seeing similar things happen in Bosnia. These Nusayri Alawites and their henchmen are made of the same evil material that the Serbs were back then.

[GalasaKoll]

Sunni mosque destroyed in Iraq:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bdd_1181988093


Sunni madrassa destroyed in Iran:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d50NYhoVhno

[draigenia]

where is the UN cultural organisations to list these as protected heritage sites and war crimes?

UN and otehr world political organisations are nothing but political tools of the US

[steansathtpos]

Stop calling SHRINES SUFI! For the love of Allaah! They are YOUR wali Allaah's as well, not just Sufi's!

Sheesh!

[draigenia]

Stop calling SHRINES SUFI! For the love of Allaah! They are YOUR wali Allaah's as well, not just Sufi's!

Sheesh!

where did I say this?

[draigenia]

where is the UN cultural organisations to list these as protected heritage sites and war crimes?

UN and otehr world political organisations are nothing but political tools of the US

???

[gennnniiikk]

Stop calling SHRINES SUFI! For the love of Allaah! They are YOUR wali Allaah's as well, not just Sufi's!

Sheesh!

calm down please. the shrines are of Wali Allah...yes or no? and these Wali Allah were sufis yes? and no i do not say sufi in a derogatory manner.
please think before you speak.

[gennnniiikk]

where did I say this?

lol. turns out for once, the criticism on a thread containing the word sufi ,wasnt at you but at the OP.

[draigenia]

I dont have a problem with all sufis anyway, just the grave worshipping ones

suhba and zuhd and such like are things I would really benefit from inshAllah if I get the opportunity to sit with some REAL sufis

[Maydayvar]

Abu Fatimah
No true sufi will call themselves a sufi. they could be mureed but won't see themselves better then others.
In all my life I have only found those who are in the path of suluk remind me of what is important in life as a human and ultimately as slave!! The lamadhabist simply instilled hate of others!! So I hate them in return - most of them do not have any sense of empathy and exhibit a mindset of brainless zombie!! I don't like to be with people with dead heart!!
Allahualm

[draigenia]

wouldnt that make you no better than them brother nomadic? Does your religion and aqeedah teach you love and peace or hatred and emnity?

There are millions of "la madhbists" btw and its not fair to make a mass generalisation that they spread hate, nor would it be fair to say madhabists are the opposite. Each person will reap what he sows and madhab or no madhab doesnt affect whether you are a nice or hateful person

[HonjUopu]

wouldnt that make you no better than them brother nomadic? Does your religion and aqeedah teach you love and peace or hatred and emnity?

There are millions of "la madhbists" btw and its not fair to make a mass generalisation that they spread hate, nor would it be fair to say madhabists are the opposite. Each person will reap what he sows and madhab or no madhab doesnt affect whether you are a nice or hateful person

TAlking about REAP what you sow. My malian MUSLIM friend is still awaiting the apology of Takfir on the WHOLE town of Timbuctoo.

Else the poeple of Mali are equally happy to share your hasanaah as recompense. For thats the DAY people will be horrified, they would look for anything to add to their scales ??

50,000 Years is enough time to sort this out. How horrific a circumstance !!

Got enough on your scales for 100,000 plus muslims in West Africa ? Aouthobillah, Atagfirallah

May Allah protect the muslims from those who give succor to their enemies and become willing or unwilling collaborators.

So I hate them in return - most of them do not have any sense of empathy and exhibit a mindset of brainless zombie!! I don't like to be with people with dead heart!! I feel the same brother Nomadic, most right minded muslims do !

[GalasaKoll]

I dont have a problem with all sufis anyway, just the grave worshipping ones

suhba and zuhd and such like are things I would really benefit from inshAllah if I get the opportunity to sit with some REAL sufis

1) If you have a problem with grave-worshipping. Then you need to STOP the grave-worshipping, NOT the grave.

2) If you want to stop the grave-worship, then you need to show that it is Haram. Breaking graves without an explanation is not the answer.

3) If you are just a regular bloke on the street, you have no right to trespass on another's property and start vandalizing.

4) If you are the rulership or have taken-over rulership (like 'Ansar Dine' in Mali), then WHY do you need to Break the tombs?? Dont you have the power to Prevent grave-worship, and dont you have the power to Educate the laymen, since you're apparently "establishing Sharia rule"?

5) Once you have taken effective control of the state/region, "militant" activities are not needed, education/dawa is needed. Otherwise, you have established dictatorship/tyranny and not Sharia.

[draigenia]

TAlking about REAP what you sow. My malian MUSLIM friend is still awaiting the apology of Takfir on the WHOLE town of Timbuctoo.

Else the poeple of Mali are equally happy to share your hasanaah as recompense. For thats the DAY people will be horrified, they would look for anything to add to their scales ??

50,000 Years is enough time to sort this out. How horrific a circumstance !!

Got enough on your scales for 100,000 plus muslims in West Africa ? Aouthobillah, Atagfirallah

May Allah protect the muslims from those who give succor to their enemies and become willing or unwilling collaborators.



I feel the same brother Nomadic, most right minded muslims do !

fear Allah akhi when did I say the whole town of timbuktoo is kafir? Why would any salafi want to leave hi sect to become like you? you are a very hateful, spiteful individual and display nothing of the spirituality and manners a practitioner of tassawuf should embody

[draigenia]

1) If you have a problem with grave-worshipping. Then you need to STOP the grave-worshipping, NOT the grave.

2) If you want to stop the grave-worship, then you need to show that it is Haram. Breaking graves without an explanation is not the answer.

3) If you are just a regular bloke on the street, you have no right to trespass on another's property and start vandalizing.

4) If you are the rulership or have taken-over rulership (like 'Ansar Dine' in Mali), then WHY do you need to Break the tombs?? Dont you have the power to Prevent grave-worship, and dont you have the power to Educate the laymen, since you're apparently "establishing Sharia rule"?

5) Once you have taken effective control of the state/region, "militant" activities are not needed, education/dawa is needed. Otherwise, you have established dictatorship/tyranny and not Sharia.

1) Grave worship and erecting graves are two different things. The quote you were responding to of me said I have a problem with grave worshipping sufis (i.e. false sufi claimants) so its a different topic to demolishing graves

2) I agree, you need to teach tawheed, I would assume that ansar ad din are doing that inshAllah and not just randomly smashing things

3) I agree vigilantism is not allowed in islam. We can speak against it with our tongue though inshAllah

4) If you are the ruler and you wish to act upon the ahadeeth ordering the smashing of tombs and you wish to act upon the opinions of the salaf I have mentioned ordered the smashing of tombs then this is why you would smash the tombs. We must respect the legitimate opinion they are following inshAllah

5) You have to define what you mean by "militant". "militant" and "dictatorship" are western terms and have no basis in the shariah. All a ruler simply needs to do is implement the hukm of Allah. This may involve "education" and it may involve what the west may describe as "militant" activity in the way of enforcing Islamic rules on the people. This is how it has been from the time of the prophet SAW right up until the time that the final handhold of Islam was broken (i.e. the hukm of Allah)

[GalasaKoll]

1) Grave worship and erecting graves are two different things. The quote you were responding to of me said I have a problem with grave worshipping sufis (i.e. false sufi claimants) so its a different topic to demolishing graves

2) I agree, you need to teach tawheed, I would assume that ansar ad din are doing that inshAllah and not just randomly smashing things

3) I agree vigilantism is not allowed in islam. We can speak against it with our tongue though inshAllah

4) If you are the ruler and you wish to act upon the ahadeeth ordering the smashing of tombs and you wish to act upon the opinions of the salaf I have mentioned ordered the smashing of tombs then this is why you would smash the tombs. We must respect the legitimate opinion they are following inshAllah

5) You have to define what you mean by "militant". "militant" and "dictatorship" are western terms and have no basis in the shariah. All a ruler simply needs to do is implement the hukm of Allah. This may involve "education" and it may involve what the west may describe as "militant" activity in the way of enforcing Islamic rules on the people. This is how it has been from the time of the prophet SAW right up until the time that the final handhold of Islam was broken (i.e. the hukm of Allah)

1) Misguided is he who cannot be guided. And guidance means 'negotiation/education'. If the graveworshipper wont budge, he's misguided; but if the hater-of-graveworshippers wont budge, then he too is misguided. Since neither of the two are willing to negotiate, neither can be guided.

2) Judging from the interviews ive seen from local people, theyre saying they are afraid of the guns, and hence are just standing and watching. They will simply rebuild it later, they say:

"They had armed men guarding the door. Just like yesterday, the population did not react. They said we need to let them do what they want, hoping that someday we will rebuild the tombs," Tandina said. (SOURCE)
This just shows that Ansar Dine did not discuss or educate, and did not receive approval before their destruction. It also proves the complete ineffectiveness of their tactics, seeing how people are just eager to rebuild what Ansar Dine destroyed. It also shows they have no political strategy for longevity by carrying out such actions in haste.


3) Inshallah

4) Respect the opinion of who? There are so many claiming authority, who decides who is best? Is Ansar Dine's the "legitimate opinion" simply since they have guns, the others dont?

5) "Militant" refers to one who is combative: the state fights its rebels, and the rebels fight the state. But the state does not fight its civilians/subjects. When the state does do that, that is called "tyranny". These are not Western concepts, tyranny exists anywhere. And this tyranny in the form "islamic state" has claimed many martyrs: Hussein, Zaid, Abu Hanifah, and most of the Imams that the shia worship today, and thousands others. They were all unjustly targetted by people who were tasked with the duty of islamic state/sharia. They were not following the "hukm of Allah", they were exercising their own hukm.

[draigenia]

1) Misguided is he who cannot be guided. And guidance means 'negotiation/education'. If the graveworshipper wont budge, he's misguided; but if the hater-of-graveworshippers wont budge, then he too is misguided. Since neither of the two are willing to negotiate, neither can be guided.

2) Judging from the interviews ive seen from local people, theyre saying they are afraid of the guns, and hence are just standing and watching. They will simply rebuild it later, they say:

"They had armed men guarding the door. Just like yesterday, the population did not react. They said we need to let them do what they want, hoping that someday we will rebuild the tombs," Tandina said. (SOURCE)
This just shows that Ansar Dine did not discuss or educate, and did not receive approval before their destruction. It also proves the complete ineffectiveness of their tactics, seeing how people are just eager to rebuild what Ansar Dine destroyed. It also shows they have no political strategy for longevity by carrying out such actions in haste.


3) Inshallah

4) Respect the opinion of who? There are so many claiming authority, who decides who is best? Is Ansar Dine's the "legitimate opinion" simply since they have guns, the others dont?

5) "Militant" refers to one who is combative: the state fights its rebels, and the rebels fight the state. But the state does not fight its civilians/subjects. When the state does do that, that is called "tyranny". These are not Western concepts, tyranny exists anywhere. And this tyranny in the form "islamic state" has claimed many martyrs: Hussein, Zaid, Abu Hanifah, and most of the Imams that the shia worship today, and thousands others. They were all unjustly targetted by people who were tasked with the duty of islamic state/sharia. They were not following the "hukm of Allah", they were exercising their own hukm.

1) Sorry not sure what that brought to the discussion

2) We dont know the situation on the ground and the western media will always portray islamic groups in a poor light, giving totally made up interviews to show how much they are hated. Sometimes groups who are much loved by the people who rule by the shariah are vilified by the west because of an anti islam agenda to prevent teh establishment of shariah. So Allahu a'lam. I agree that they shoudl be aductaed and I hope inshAllah that this will happen, its from the salafi methodology to educate people in tawheed, in fact thats the core aspect of salafi dawah

3) baab mughalqun inshAllah

4) Respect the opinion of those in authority inshAllah. They hod the opinion that they must level graves because of the hadeeth and athaar I have proivded which do seem to strongly indiciate taht we must level graves. If they are following a valid opinion why shoudl we oppose it simply because we dont like "wahhabis"?

5) The state must implement shariah law. They must use force when teh shariah dictates and not use force when teh shriah doenst dictate. If you folow this, tehre is no conceivable way that you are oppressive because you are following Allahs law. Oppression is to do what Allah hasnt commanded, and he did order us to smash graves. So this is not "militant" or "oppressive". They are now the legitimate rulers of northern mali and as such must be obeyed by the citzens. As for using hikmah, may Allah help them in that inshAllah. But if they slip up, may Allah forgive them. At least they are trying to rule by Islam. Why is it that we have more to say about those who rule by Islam than we do about secularists and apostates?

[GalasaKoll]

1) Sorry not sure what that brought to the discussion

2) We dont know the situation on the ground and the western media will always portray islamic groups in a poor light, giving totally made up interviews to show how much they are hated. Sometimes groups who are much loved by the people who rule by the shariah are vilified by the west because of an anti islam agenda to prevent teh establishment of shariah. So Allahu a'lam. I agree that they shoudl be aductaed and I hope inshAllah that this will happen, its from the salafi methodology to educate people in tawheed, in fact thats the core aspect of salafi dawah

3) baab mughalqun inshAllah

4) Respect the opinion of those in authority inshAllah. They hod the opinion that they must level graves because of the hadeeth and athaar I have proivded which do seem to strongly indiciate taht we must level graves. If they are following a valid opinion why shoudl we oppose it simply because we dont like "wahhabis"?

5) The state must implement shariah law. They must use force when teh shariah dictates and not use force when teh shriah doenst dictate. If you folow this, tehre is no conceivable way that you are oppressive because you are following Allahs law. Oppression is to do what Allah hasnt commanded, and he did order us to smash graves. So this is not "militant" or "oppressive". They are now the legitimate rulers of northern mali and as such must be obeyed by the citzens. As for using hikmah, may Allah help them in that inshAllah. But if they slip up, may Allah forgive them. At least they are trying to rule by Islam. Why is it that we have more to say about those who rule by Islam than we do about secularists and apostates?

1) What it means is that: if the Salafi is not willing to negotiate with the Sufi, then he is also misguided. Because guidance requires ilm, and ilm is achieved through education, and education can only be done when both parties are face-to-face. When only one party think he knows everything, then he is ignorant because he doesn't know what the other party has to say. And this applies to both sides.

2) I like to weigh both sides, and accordingly i like to scrutinize both sides. I wont "suck up" to Ansar Dine's portrait just as i wont suck up to the Western media's portrait of the situation. Most salafists however, are eager to eat up everything their favourite J!hadi group says, or whatever's the official line of Al-Fajr or GIMF.

4) Sure, people will always continue to "Respect the opinion of those in authority". They do it in pakistan, saudi, iran, and everywhere we have so-called "islamic states". We however, do J!had against them and their stooges, and this is because of their transgressions.

5) See all of the above.... And, we're not trying to scrutinize Islamic groups because we consider ourselves perfectionists, rather it is the perfectionists who scrutinize everyone else. We condemn the kuffar, but we also condemn the extremists; because from my experience, the extremists only force people to join the kuffar.

Timbuktu is not Ansar Dine's playground. It is an ancient location which attracts scholars from all around the Muslim world. If they did not break these tombs, then why should Ansar? And if it is necessary to do so, then it cannot be done without consulting the scholars first. If you know that the Western media (even though AlJazreera isnt western) is defamatory, then why would they refrain from blaming the scholars who apparently supported this as well?

[draigenia]

1) What it means is that: if the Salafi is not willing to negotiate with the Sufi, then he is also misguided. Because guidance requires ilm, and ilm is achieved through education, and education can only be done when both parties are face-to-face. When only one party think he knows everything, then he is ignorant because he doesn't know what the other party has to say. And this applies to both sides.

2) I like to weigh both sides, and accordingly i like to scrutinize both sides. I wont "suck up" to Ansar Dine's portrait just as i wont suck up to the Western media's portrait of the situation. Most salafists however, are eager to eat up everything their favourite J!hadi group says, or whatever's the official line of Al-Fajr or GIMF.

4) Sure, people will always continue to "Respect the opinion of those in authority". They do it in pakistan, saudi, iran, and everywhere we have so-called "islamic states". We however, do J!had against them and their stooges, and this is because of their transgressions.

5) See all of the above.... And, we're not trying to scrutinize Islamic groups because we consider ourselves perfectionists, rather it is the perfectionists who scrutinize everyone else. We condemn the kuffar, but we also condemn the extremists; because from my experience, the extremists only force people to join the kuffar.

Timbuktu is not Ansar Dine's playground. It is an ancient location which attracts scholars from all around the Muslim world. If they did not break these tombs, then why should Ansar? And if it is necessary to do so, then it cannot be done without consulting the scholars first. If you know that the Western media (even though AlJazreera isnt western) is defamatory, then why would they refrain from blaming the scholars who apparently supported this as well?

1) Im more than happy to listen to the other side inshAllah

2) analysing things objectively is what we all should do inshAllah

4) you should respect the people in authrotity as long as they rule by islam, and ansar ad din clearly are not ruling by any other ideology. they hold the oppinion that graves shoudl be levelled and taht is based on daleel and athaar so shoudlnt we respect that opinion? Why do we have to respect one sides opinion but not the other

5) You cant just make a qiyaas like that, firstly what are you basing them being labelled extreme on? You cant blame them for sending people into the hands of the kuffar, in the last century we have thousands if not millions of murtads dispite most lands being full of sufism and ilm ul kalaam so you cant blame ridaa on others.

Scholars dont have political leadership so cant just go to a country and start smashing graves, where is teh hikmah in that? Ansar ad din do have the political position though and wish to implement the advice of the prophet SAW and they dont care what you or I or the UN world culttural heritage says, they only care about Allah SWT, they only wish to follow the sunnah of the prophet SAW who clearly told us to level graves and not build over them, and that was concerning prophets so what about saints who are less than prophets?

Clearly tehre is superstition in mali that is tantamount to kufr so why oppose the removal of this? Dont you think kufr is a bigger deal than tourist attractions? Isnt shirk a big deal? Isnt it the BIGGEST deal?