[Longwow]

http://allafrica.com/stories/201206220890.html

Bamako — Strict Sharia, or Islamic religious laws, imposed by the Islamist rebels controlling vast swathes of northern Mali are driving thousands of students out of schools. Dress codes have been imposed, boys and girls are forced to learn separately, and subjects deemed to promote "infidelity" have been struck off the curriculum.

Outraged parents are transferring their children and some students are opting to miss examinations rather than learn under these conditions.

"We simply took our two children from the school," said Mariam Touré, who lives in Timbuktu, one of the northern towns seized by the Islamists and other insurgents. "We will send them to Bamako [the capital of Mali, in the south] to continue learning."

"I decided not to sit my second-term examinations under those conditions and my parents agreed with me. They transferred me to Sikasso [a town southeast of Bamako], where I'm now pursuing my studies," said Almoustapha Cissé.

Relevant Links

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Jihadism and Tuareg Nationalism Are Not the Same
Boubacar Sissoko, a schoolmaster in Timbuktu - a UNESCO World Heritage site - said the Islamists "terrorize the children" with the new laws. "They have introduced their own programme and new subjects like Islamic education, or collective prayers that they themselves conduct," he said. The arrival of the Islamists in the north in March and the unrest that followed have left only 107 students out of 429 at the school.

Mali's education ministry estimates that around 5,000 students have fled to schools in Bamako and other southern towns since Islamist fighters of Ansar Dine, an Islamist group that wants to apply Sharia law throughout Mali; the Movement for Unity and Jihad in West Africa (MUJAO), a small Islamist group; and the Azawad National Liberation Movement (MNLA), who want to create a separate secular state in the north, seized northern Mali when a military coup on 22 March ousted president Amadou Amani Touré in Bamako.

The combination of conflict, harsh drought, food insecurity, and now the imposition of Sharia law, has internally displaced 146,900 people, and more than 150,000 others to neighbouring Mauritania, Burkina Faso, Niger and Guinea, according to the UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR).

Although schools have taken the brunt of the draconian Islamic laws, residents can also no longer watch television, men cannot shave their beard or use tobacco. On 20 June, a Timbuktu couple was flogged 100 times in public for having a child out of wedlock, sparking condemnation by shocked and angry residents.

"I was really shocked to see these poor youths undergo such punishment simply because of having a child. It made me cry. It's a shame," said Mariama, a schoolgirl.

"We are living in another world," said Attaher Maiga, a Timbuktu resident, pointing out that the Koran does not forbid football, tobacco or shaving one's beard.

But the Islamists defend their laws.

"Sharia has to be applied whether the people like it or not, we will enforce it. We are not asking anybody's opinion. We are not democrats. We are servants of Allah who demands Sharia," Sanda Ould Boumama, Ansar Dine's spokesman in Timbuktu, told IRIN.

Girls are forced to wear djellabas, or full-body robes. "On 7 May, Ansar Dine and its ally, Al Qaeda in Maghreb, reopened schools in Timbuktu and Gao, a town to the east, but students began a new system [of learning] unknown to them before the occupation of the region," Timbuktu Education Director, Abou Bacri Cissé, told IRIN.

"Not only did they impose a new education system, separating girls and boys in classrooms, they also separate the students in groups - boys learning in the morning, and girls in the afternoon," he said.

In classrooms in Gao, "Boys sit in front and girls at the back, like in mosques," Beydi Koné, a journalist in the town, told IRIN.

Amahane Touré, a teacher in Gao, said only 21 pupils remain in her eighth and ninth grade French class, among them three girls. Previously there were 69 pupils, including 19 girls.

"We are searched every day before going to classes for fear that we are teaching the subjects banned under their Sharia. They forbid us from teaching certain subjects like biology, philosophy, civic education, under the pretext that they promote infidelity," she said.

"I understand the plight of the parents who fled with their children, but as teachers we have the duty to teach those who remain, even if the conditions are tough, especially due to Sharia imposed by Ansar Dine," Touré said.

In the weeks after the military coup, heavily-armed MNLA rebels and Islamists gained an unprecedented hold over northern Mali. The MNLA declared independence soon afterwards, but the move was rejected by its Islamist allies as well as the international community, and caused divisions among the armed groups in the region.

The Economic Commission of West African States (ECOWAS) is trying to resolve the crisis, which has also worsened the suffering of millions of Malians affected by a severe drought across the Sahel region. The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) estimates that more than 3.5 million Malians are hungry.

Faced with the hardships, Mali's education ministry has been forced to postpone the June national primary and secondary school examinations for a month.

"Special sessions and make-up classes have been set up for the students displaced from the north," said Mahamane Baby, an advisor at the education ministry "This is to help them to overcome the stress and not lag behind.

[nikolapegayyyaasss]

Firstly, the source and the news has to be verified. Allah says in the Quran (interpretation): "Verify the news from a fasiq because it may mislead". This is a time of great fitnah my brother. Just few days ago Taliban attacked a hotel in Kabul. The news channels denounced the act as an attack on civilians while the Taliban media fronts and the unjustmedia site were quoted as saying that the attack killed dozens of Foreign diplomats, American/NATO military personnel and Afghan army soldiers. Tell me who would you trust???

Secondly, neither me nor (i guess) are you in Mali to make an accurate judgement about the situation. To form a judgement or an opinion one has to have first hand information unless either he will criticize people who are rightly fighting in the path of Allah/working to raise Allah's Deen or we will fall into supporting wrong people who are not on the right path.

Thirdly, as far as i have followed Al-qaeda and its movements in various countries, there has been no imposition of Shariah in any place. The masses are first made to accept Shairah. And in some places like Yemen there were even concessions especially made initially in Shariah just to help people get acclimatized to the new system and then gradually the system was implemented. They are always of the notion that "Shariah has to be implemented on the people thus the 'people' must be satisfied before its implemented in its full essence".

Wallahu Aalam. (I may be wrong).

[Longwow]

Firstly, the source and the news has to be verified. Allah says in the Quran (interpretation): "Verify the news from a fasiq because it may mislead". This is a time of great fitnah my brother. Just few days ago Taliban attacked a hotel in Kabul. The news channels denounced the act as an attack on civilians while the Taliban media fronts and the unjustmedia site were quoted as saying that the attack killed dozens of Foreign diplomats, American/NATO military personnel and Afghan army soldiers. Tell me who would you trust???

Secondly, neither me nor (i guess) are you in Mali to make an accurate judgement about the situation. To form a judgement or an opinion one has to have first hand information unless either he will criticize people who are rightly fighting in the path of Allah/working to raise Allah's Deen or we will fall into supporting wrong people who are not on the right path.

Thirdly, as far as i have followed Al-qaeda and its movements in various countries, there has been no imposition of Shariah in any place. The masses are first made to accept Shairah. And in some places like Yemen there were even concessions especially made initially in Shariah just to help people get acclimatized to the new system and then gradually the system was implemented. They are always of the notion that "Shariah has to be implemented on the people thus the 'people' must be satisfied before its implemented in its full essence".

Wallahu Aalam. (I may be wrong).

brother, your post was defensive, was there something in the article you felt needed defending?

[gennnniiikk]

http://allafrica.com/stories/201206220890.html

Bamako — Strict Sharia, or Islamic religious laws, imposed by the Islamist rebels controlling vast swathes of northern Mali are driving thousands of students out of schools. Dress codes have been imposed, boys and girls are forced to learn separately, and subjects deemed to promote "infidelity" have been struck off the curriculum.

correct decision.

Outraged parents are transferring their children and some students are opting to miss examinations rather than learn under these conditions.

"We simply took our two children from the school," said Mariam Touré, who lives in Timbuktu, one of the northern towns seized by the Islamists and other insurgents. "We will send them to Bamako [the capital of Mali, in the south] to continue learning."

"I decided not to sit my second-term examinations under those conditions and my parents agreed with me. They transferred me to Sikasso [a town southeast of Bamako], where I'm now pursuing my studies," said Almoustapha Cissé.

perhaps some outreach would do them good. the liberals do not have a case beyond that i am afraid.

Boubacar Sissoko, a schoolmaster in Timbuktu - a UNESCO World Heritage site - said the Islamists "terrorize the children" with the new laws. "

terrorism is a subjective word.

They have introduced their own programme and new subjects like Islamic education, or collective prayers that they themselves conduct," he said.

what is the problem with this? you see how secularism is extremely intolerant. ironic.

The arrival of the Islamists in the north in March and the unrest that followed have left only 107 students out of 429 at the school.

as i said, perhaps outreach would have helped and beyond that...no excuse for liberals.

The combination of conflict, harsh drought, food insecurity, and now the imposition of Sharia law, has internally displaced 146,900 people, and more than 150,000 others to neighbouring Mauritania, Burkina Faso, Niger and Guinea, according to the UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR).

notice how the writer has equated:
- drought
- food insecurity
to shariah law.
and then make sit looks like all three reasons combine to drive people away.
it is like saying sectarian violence, unemployment and the presence of mosques in every neighbourhood is driving people away to other cities. what utter rubbish.

Although schools have taken the brunt of the draconian Islamic laws, residents can also no longer watch television, men cannot shave their beard or use tobacco. On 20 June, a Timbuktu couple was flogged 100 times in public for having a child out of wedlock, sparking condemnation by shocked and angry residents.

draconian is an adjective yes? what use does an adjective have when you cannot prove the usage? arent news articles supposed to be without bias and slant?
as for TV. you have just the word of the reporter for it. did they shut down the tv stations? did they do it to spend the money their for welfare of community? (after all we have seen mujahideen providing welfare for community first thing...as in yemen).
or did they simply go to every home and ask them not to watch tv?
or did they take away all the TVs?
or did they let them have it but said we will punish you if caught?
multiple meanings, one blanket statement. poor.

tobacco: yeah that is very good for your body? does Islam remotely allow anything that is unhealthy? again just because liberals do it all over the world is no proof of anything.

shaving beard is haram according to majority of fuqaha. you do not want to accept it. then dont. its our government. but yes an outreach to the actual people living there would be good. you see, some may not understand fiqh.

same goes for lashes. completely according to islamic laws. liberal response is typical. i do not understand it or do not want to accept it hence it must be wrong. flawed logic.

"We are living in another world," said Attaher Maiga, a Timbuktu resident, pointing out that the Koran does not forbid football, tobacco or shaving one's beard.

ah.classic. the Qur'an is now the sole legislator of Islamic law. poor reasoning again.
look how they say he 'pointed out' as though it was the most obvious thing in the world unknown to the mujahideen and the plethora of muslim scholars throughout the ages through which the Qur'an reached us in the first place in its present form.

But the Islamists defend their laws.

"Sharia has to be applied whether the people like it or not, we will enforce it. We are not asking anybody's opinion. We are not democrats. We are servants of Allah who demands Sharia," Sanda Ould Boumama, Ansar Dine's spokesman in Timbuktu, told IRIN.

an excellent answer. may i suggest some outreach as well?

Girls are forced to wear djellabas, or full-body robes. "On 7 May, Ansar Dine and its ally, Al Qaeda in Maghreb, reopened schools in Timbuktu and Gao, a town to the east, but students began a new system [of learning] unknown to them before the occupation of the region," Timbuktu Education Director, Abou Bacri Cissé, told IRIN.

"Not only did they impose a new education system, separating girls and boys in classrooms, they also separate the students in groups - boys learning in the morning, and girls in the afternoon," he said.

a good idea you know. separate the times.

In classrooms in Gao, "Boys sit in front and girls at the back, like in mosques," Beydi Koné, a journalist in the town, told IRIN.

i wish this was done in my university. esp with the way girls dress up. excellent decision again.

Amahane Touré, a teacher in Gao, said only 21 pupils remain in her eighth and ninth grade French class, among them three girls. Previously there were 69 pupils, including 19 girls.

already refuted this.

"We are searched every day before going to classes for fear that we are teaching the subjects banned under their Sharia. They forbid us from teaching certain subjects like biology, philosophy, civic education, under the pretext that they promote infidelity," she said.

perhaps this can be resolved amicably. both parties need to relent on some views. biology isnt haram. teaching children evolution is correct definitely IS haram. similarly in civis if there are unislamic things one needs to remove it not ban the subject altogether. or even alter the texts.

"I understand the plight of the parents who fled with their children, but as teachers we have the duty to teach those who remain, even if the conditions are tough, especially due to Sharia imposed by Ansar Dine," Touré said.

again your problem is with shariah. ever tried something called 'understanding other people's concerns'?...islamic is flexible and liberlaism isnt. that says a lot.

In the weeks after the military coup, heavily-armed MNLA rebels and Islamists gained an unprecedented hold over northern Mali. The MNLA declared independence soon afterwards, but the move was rejected by its Islamist allies as well as the international community, and caused divisions among the armed groups in the region.

muslims need to stop worrying about the international community. liberals always quote north korea. shameless cowards.

The Economic Commission of West African States (ECOWAS) is trying to resolve the crisis, which has also worsened the suffering of millions of Malians affected by a severe drought across the Sahel region. The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) estimates that more than 3.5 million Malians are hungry.

resolve the drought. feed the hungry. work with the government. don't interfere with things you do not wish to understand and tolerate.

"Special sessions and make-up classes have been set up for the students displaced from the north," said Mahamane Baby, an advisor at the education ministry "This is to help them to overcome the stress and not lag behind.

classic. keep harping your own tune with fingers firmly placed in their ears.

May Allah give these people and us hidayat. ameen.

a great share bro. abu fatimah. made me so happy.

[gennnniiikk]

Thirdly, as far as i have followed Al-qaeda and its movements in various countries, there has been no imposition of Shariah in any place. The masses are first made to accept Shairah. And in some places like Yemen there were even concessions especially made initially in Shariah just to help people get acclimatized to the new system and then gradually the system was implemented. They are always of the notion that "Shariah has to be implemented on the people thus the 'people' must be satisfied before its implemented in its full essence".

i have actually not read that. i noticed you were at jhuf. prhaps you can keep us updated there of your findings of alqaeda.

[TEFSADDERFISA]

http://allafrica.com/stories/201206220890.html

Your opinions

This news piece just gives evidence to another failed attempt of imposing an undefined 'sharia state' on people in the modern context. For all those with a kindle I suggest Islam and the secular state: Negotiating the future of Shari'a. Some quotes from that book:

The fact that proponents of the dominant interpretations of the presumed or perceived aspects of cultural or religious identity would represent them as the only authentic or legitimate positions of the culture on a given issue simply emphasizes the importance of ensuring every possibility for dissent and freedom to assert alternative views or practices.

Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im. Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a (p. 24). Kindle Edition.

The notion of an Islamic state is in fact a postcolonial innovation based on a European model of the state and a totalitarian view of law and public policy as instruments of social engineering by the ruling elites.

Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im. Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a (p. 7). Kindle Edition.

I am calling for the state to be secular, not for secularizing society.

Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im. Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a (p. 8). Kindle Edition.

The main purpose of this chapter is to show that my proposal for a secular state is more consistent with Islamic history than is the so-called Islamic state model proposed by some Muslims since the second quarter of the twentieth century.

Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im. Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a (p. 45). Kindle Edition.

The common negative perception of secularism is due to a failure to distinguish between the state and politics, as discussed later. By failing to recognize this distinction, many Muslims take the separation of Islam and the state to mean the total relegation of Islam to the purely private domain and its exclusion from public policy.

Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im. Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a (pp. 8-9). Kindle Edition.

The paradox of separation of religion and state despite the connection of religion and politics can only be mediated through practice over time, rather than completely resolved by theoretical analysis or stipulation.

Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im. Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a (p. 28). Kindle Edition.

Any and all proposed possibilities of change or development must therefore begin with the reality that European colonialism and its aftermath have drastically transformed the basis and nature of political and social organization within and among territorial states where all Muslims live today. A return to precolonial ideas and systems is simply not an option, and any change and adaptation of the present system can be realized only through the concepts and institutions of this local and global postcolonial reality. Yet many Muslims, probably the majority in many countries, have not accepted some aspects of this transformation and its consequences. This discrepancy seems to underlie the apparent acceptance by many Muslims of the possibility of an Islamic state that can enforce Shari'a principles as positive law; it also underlies the widespread ambivalence about politically motivated violence in the name of jihad.

Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im. Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a (p. 32). Kindle Edition.

This view of the pragmatic functions of the state and their reliance on skill rather than religious piety was supported by the leading Islamic traditionalist scholar Ibn Taymiyyah (died 1328), who asserted that the selection of each public officer or magistrate should be based on the pragmatic requirements and the individual's capacity to comply with the ethical and professional code of the job being assigned, not considerations of religious piety. He cited in this context the example of how the Prophet repeatedly appointed Khalid Ibn al-Walid as commander of Muslim armies, despite his frustration and dissatisfaction with Khalid's attitudes and behavior from a religious point of view (Ibn Taymiyyah 1983, 9-26). He cited other examples, and concluded that the Prophet "appointed men based on pragmatic interest even if there are men around that commander who are better than him in knowledge and faith" (18).

Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im. Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a (pp. 49-50). Kindle Edition.

[gennnniiikk]

This news piece just gives evidence to another failed attempt of imposing an undefined 'sharia state' on people in the modern context. For all those with a kindle I suggest Islam and the secular state: Negotiating the future of Shari'a. Some quotes from that book:

The fact that proponents of the dominant interpretations of the presumed or perceived aspects of cultural or religious identity would represent them as the only authentic or legitimate positions of the culture on a given issue simply emphasizes the importance of ensuring every possibility for dissent and freedom to assert alternative views or practices.

this is classic 'valid difference of opinion' card.
and it is invalid because his opinion is a minority. please use the search function on SF to read why are such opinions discarded.

Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im. Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a (p. 24). Kindle Edition.

The notion of an Islamic state is in fact a postcolonial innovation based on a European model of the state and a totalitarian view of law and public policy as instruments of social engineering by the ruling elites.

his opinion and he is entitled to it. however there were several Islamic 'states' before colonialism. weak fact he gave.
and the islamic state is not based on any european models. anyone who has read shariah law and european law(s) can tell you that.this further weakens the arguments however.

Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im. Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a (p. 7). Kindle Edition.

I am calling for the state to be secular, not for secularizing society.

as if the two things are mutually exclusive. come visit pakistan or turkey sometimes.

Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im. Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a (p. 8). Kindle Edition.

The main purpose of this chapter is to show that my proposal for a secular state is more consistent with Islamic history than is the so-called Islamic state model proposed by some Muslims since the second quarter of the twentieth century.

sure. lets see it. but let us begin with the definition of 'state' and how the first four caliphs governed their dominions. i am sure this has been dissected in the 'democracy' thread and the author's views are hence incorrect. any third person reading this can check in the in-depth islam section.

Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im. Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a (p. 45). Kindle Edition.

The common negative perception of secularism is due to a failure to distinguish between the state and politics, as discussed later. By failing to recognize this distinction, many Muslims take the separation of Islam and the state to mean the total relegation of Islam to the purely private domain and its exclusion from public policy.

well the relegation is ground reality in secular muslim states isnt it?

Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im. Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a (pp. 8-9). Kindle Edition.

The paradox of separation of religion and state despite the connection of religion and politics can only be mediated through practice over time, rather than completely resolved by theoretical analysis or stipulation.

he himself is confused. religion and state and politics are not disconnected. he has chosen to disconnect the first two and joined the last two and then assumed that is correct. and his solution to 'mediate it' is again his own opinion whch he has presented as fact.

Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im. Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a (p. 28). Kindle Edition.

Any and all proposed possibilities of change or development must therefore begin with the reality that European colonialism and its aftermath have drastically transformed the basis and nature of political and social organization within and among territorial states where all Muslims live today. A return to precolonial ideas and systems is simply not an option, and any change and adaptation of the present system can be realized only through the concepts and institutions of this local and global postcolonial reality. Yet many Muslims, probably the majority in many countries, have not accepted some aspects of this transformation and its consequences. This discrepancy seems to underlie the apparent acceptance by many Muslims of the possibility of an Islamic state that can enforce Shari'a principles as positive law; it also underlies the widespread ambivalence about politically motivated violence in the name of jihad.

it is not a reality. i do wish seculars would quit stating their opinions as facts.
his intolerance can be seen in the port i put in bold. he has again assumed that basic islamic laws have to evolve with time. hence to him pre and post colonial fundamental laws have to be different. it is this thing which is the bone of contention between seculars and the supporters of shariah.
otherwise shariah is very flexible. so yes post colonial traumas can be handled w/o the secularists.

Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im. Islam and the Secular State: Negotiating the Future of Shari`a (p. 32). Kindle Edition.

This view of the pragmatic functions of the state and their reliance on skill rather than religious piety was supported by the leading Islamic traditionalist scholar Ibn Taymiyyah (died 1328), who asserted that the selection of each public officer or magistrate should be based on the pragmatic requirements and the individual's capacity to comply with the ethical and professional code of the job being assigned, not considerations of religious piety. He cited in this context the example of how the Prophet repeatedly appointed Khalid Ibn al-Walid as commander of Muslim armies, despite his frustration and dissatisfaction with Khalid's attitudes and behavior from a religious point of view (Ibn Taymiyyah 1983, 9-26). He cited other examples, and concluded that the Prophet "appointed men based on pragmatic interest even if there are men around that commander who are better than him in knowledge and faith" (18).

ah. can you produce the quote from ibn taymiyyah (rh) directly from the book he said it in. we would like to see it.
also since when has religious piety and the individual's capacity to fulfill ethical and professional code of the job become mutually exclusive? there needs to be both. and to assume an individual can follow ethics constantly while not even practicing islam fully is ridiculous.
he (or the author) quotes khalid bin walid's (ra) appointment as example.
can khalid bin walid (ra) be compared to a hardly practicing modernist secular? no he cannot be.
hence the comparison is immediately null and void.
curiosuly why was Hadrat Abu Bakr chosen as first caliph? ask yourself that.
then again, if that really is what ibn taymiyyah said it is irresponsible to not see what other scholars have said on this. have the majority of fuqaha held the same opinion?

[gennnniiikk]

I also find the notion of a ''Shariah-State'' laughable when we have people writing books upon books upon books on how another sect of Muslims is guilty of disbelief and innovation. I even know of people in the sub-continent in countries like Pakistan who refuse to pray in certain mosques and certain Imams because they belong to a different sect? Forget that - some of these people don't even think the opposing members of a different sect are even Muslim!

So I humbly ask whose fiqh are we going to adopt in this Shariah State? What about the other fiqhi opinions that will be different from the one the State will adopt - will they use their legality just because the ''State'' deems it so? Whose ulema are going to be consulted from which schools of thought? These are just a few questions...

Is someone seriously going to suggest to let people like this control the State so they can declare anyone who disagrees with them an apostate and use that as a political weapon to silence dissent. I don't mind people who want to bicker over whose a ''kafir'' and who isn't as long as they don't have any real power to exercise.

i once had the same questions and after some digging found the answers to all. perhaps you should do the same. the solutions are very amiable though the media never puts them out so those who rely on media only, only see things with sectarian racist lenses.

p.s i shall wait for the brothers abu zakir and usama to once again refute the modernist secular theories as they did wonderfully in the democracy thread.

[TEFSADDERFISA]

this is classic 'valid difference of opinion' card. and it is invalid because his opinion is a minority. please use the search function on SF to read why are such opinions discarded.

his opinion and he is entitled to it. however there were several Islamic 'states' before colonialism. weak fact he gave.
and the islamic state is not based on any european models. anyone who has read shariah law and european law(s) can tell you that.this further weakens the arguments however.

as if the two things are mutually exclusive. come visit pakistan or turkey sometimes.

sure. lets see it. but let us begin with the definition of 'state' and how the first four caliphs governed their dominions. i am sure this has been dissected in the 'democracy' thread and the author's views are hence incorrect. any third person reading this can check in the in-depth islam section.

well the relegation is ground reality in secular muslim states isnt it?

he himself is confused. religion and state and politics are not disconnected. he has chosen to disconnect the first two and joined the last two and then assumed that is correct. and his solution to 'mediate it' is again his own opinion whch he has presented as fact.

it is not a reality. i do wish seculars would quit stating their opinions as facts.
his intolerance can be seen in the port i put in bold. he has again assumed that basic islamic laws have to evolve with time. hence to him pre and post colonial fundamental laws have to be different. it is this thing which is the bone of contention between seculars and the supporters of shariah.
otherwise shariah is very flexible. so yes post colonial traumas can be handled w/o the secularists.

ah. can you produce the quote from ibn taymiyyah (rh) directly from the book he said it in. we would like to see it.
also since when has religious piety and the individual's capacity to fulfill ethical and professional code of the job become mutually exclusive? there needs to be both. and to assume an individual can follow ethics constantly while not even practicing islam fully is ridiculous.
he (or the author) quotes khalid bin walid's (ra) appointment as example.
can khalid bin walid (ra) be compared to a hardly practicing modernist secular? no he cannot be.
hence the comparison is immediately null and void.
curiosuly why was Hadrat Abu Bakr chosen as first caliph? ask yourself that.
then again, if that really is what ibn taymiyyah said it is irresponsible to not see what other scholars have said on this. have the majority of fuqaha held the same opinion?

Yes I do invite readers to visit the what is democracy thread and carefully analyse all the arguments.
modernist secular is a title you invent to divert people that we are bent on an atheistic agenda because of the misconception in muslim minds about these concepts. A muslim realist or pragmatist is something we favour. WE dont live in fantasy land. Al-shabab, al-qaeda, taliban, now the bamako can play around with their cartoonish ideologies of the role of Islam in the 21st century and how it should influence people and community. we see the views of these vile people not only as impractical, dangerous but as a mockery of Islamic history.
Yes not only Ibn Taymiyyah concludes that so does Ibn al-qayyim al JAwziyya and so does Imam Ghazzali. All of them conclude according to Anaims' research of the ''necessity of separating the religious dimension of any individual from his function or role in the state, which must be entrusted to those who are best qualified to accomplish the task''

they are not mutually exclusive but invariably the best religious ascetic/scholar cannot pragmatically be the best health minister, the best urban engineer, the best in political science and theory, the best sociologist or anthropoligst e.t.c. Even if theoretically possible there rarely are examples of these in modern society. Thus all in public office dealing with health, education, infrastructure, political organization should be selected as the best and experts in their fields not the most 'religious pious'(an indeterminable concept which only Allah can decipher) vying for these seats. your sharia state i would assume would keep mullahs in these seats just because they study ilm of fiqh or hadith as a career and now are interested in making the hospitals of the country islamically governed so that 'they would run better'.

By the way muslim zionist in the referenced article unknown entity posted is an excellent title for the lot who argue against the secular state. You want to make the state into an idol of religious submission and all muslims submissive to this human-interpreted divine state which might not represent the prophet or Allah's will at all and force its conclusions/madhabs/cultural stance view on my consience/reason/faith/family.
Reaching, learning, knowing and worshipping Allah is a journey and responsibility not dependent at all on state affairs and thus we are arguing for and actually most of us are living in a secular terrain which gives no hindrance to bringing out the best muslim potential in me and for the people in my society. I argue against the notion of sharia state because its the only political hypothesis which would actually infringe my religious liberties. it has communist orientations with a monolithic political party, dispensation of legal pluralism and ruthless powers to coerce and force submission to an entity other than Allah.

[TEFSADDERFISA]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-18563678

Ideology: Islamism/Salafist jihadism/Anti-Sufism/Sharia law

The vile, ignoramasus want to cause havoc in my hometown which is a historic muslim predmoninant city where muslims lived even before most nations became Muslim. This is the mind-set of these fundamentalist block of communist shari'ites. Its just an example of what kind of rudimentary thinking these people have. I ask mh16388 will you support the objective of such people to institute sharia law over somalia and subsequently rule it according to their mind-set of Sharia which includes the use of terrorism in neighbouring countries which has a substantial muslim presence. I am asking you just to see wether its worth discussing issues with you. Because they are people who on this forum think that the taliban and their ideals are an example of a government suited to run a contemporary Islamic state.

[wrardymar]

THE OBLIGATORY CHARACTER OF THE CALIPHATE

025.1 (Mawardi: ) The reason the office of supreme
leadership has been established in Sacred
Law is to fulfill the caliphal successorship to
prophethood in preserving the religion and managing
this-worldly affairs. The investiture of
someone from the Islamic Community (Umma)
able to fulfill the duties of the caliphate is obligatory
by scholarly consensus (def: b7), though
scholars differ as to whether its obligatory character
is established through reason or through
Revealed Law. Some say that it is obligatory by
human reason, because of the agreement of
rational individuals to have a leader to prevent
them from wronging one another and to come between
them when conflict and arguments arise.
Without authorities, there would be a chaos of
neglected people and a disorderly mob. Others
hold that it is obligatory not through reason, but
rather through Sacred Law, for the caliph performs
functions that human reason might not
otherwise deem ethically imperative, and which
are not entailed by reason alone, for reason
merely requires that rational beings refrain from
reciprocal oppression and strife, such that each
individual conform with the demands of fairness
in behaving towards others with justice and social
cohesion, each evaluating their course with their
own mind, not anyone else 's, whereas Sacred Law
stipulates that human concerns be consigned to
the person religiously responsible for them. Allah
Mighty and Majestic says,
"You who believe, obey Allah and obey the
Prophet and those of authority among you"
(Koran 4:59),
thereby obliging us to obey those in command.
namely the leader with authority over us. Abu
Hurayra relates that the Prophet (Allah bless him
and give him peace) said.
"Leaders shall rule you after me, the godfearing
of them ruling you with godfearingness and the
. profligate ruling you with wickedness. So listen to
them and obey them in everything that is right; for
if they do well, it will count for you and for them,
and if they do badly. it will count for you and
against them."

(al-Ahkam al-sultaniyya wa al-wilayat al-diniyya (y87),5-6)

The hadith was reported by Imam Muslim on the authority of Nafi' that the Messenger (Sallalahu Alaihi Wasallam) said:

''The one who removes his hand from obedience he will meet Allah without a proof for himself' and Whosoever dies without a bay'ah on his neck dies the death of Jahiliyyah.''

[nikolapegayyyaasss]

brother, your post was defensive, was there something in the article you felt needed defending?

I am not being defensive. I am just saying that we must be cautious when relying upon news channels and paper media. These are sometimes really misleading. I do not know about the Mali front though to be serious!

[nikolapegayyyaasss]

i have actually not read that. i noticed you were at jhuf. prhaps you can keep us updated there of your findings of alqaeda.

Ahan! So someone is tracking me. I got to be careful. Its bad I am using the same username

I read it on a blog where the administrator of the blog posted a report of a foreign journalist who visited 'Zanjibaar' and 'Jaar'. He mentioned everything in it. In fact he gave a very good picture though he was a foreign journalist. I'll try to share the link there inshaAllah.

[textarchive]

http://allafrica.com/stories/201206220890.html

Bamako — Strict Sharia, or Islamic religious laws, imposed by the Islamist rebels controlling vast swathes of northern Mali are driving thousands of students out of schools. Dress codes have been imposed, boys and girls are forced to learn separately, and subjects deemed to promote "infidelity" have been struck off the curriculum.

Outraged parents are transferring their children and some students are opting to miss examinations rather than learn under these conditions.

"We simply took our two children from the school," said Mariam Touré, who lives in Timbuktu, one of the northern towns seized by the Islamists and other insurgents. "We will send them to Bamako [the capital of Mali, in the south] to continue learning."

"I decided not to sit my second-term examinations under those conditions and my parents agreed with me. They transferred me to Sikasso [a town southeast of Bamako], where I'm now pursuing my studies," said Almoustapha Cissé.

Relevant Links

Terrorists and Uncertainty Flourish in North
Islamists Burn World Heritage Site in Timbuktu
Tuareg Separatists, Salafists Forge Alliance
Tuareg-Islamist Unity Bid in North Mali Unravels
Jihadism and Tuareg Nationalism Are Not the Same
Boubacar Sissoko, a schoolmaster in Timbuktu - a UNESCO World Heritage site - said the Islamists "terrorize the children" with the new laws. "They have introduced their own programme and new subjects like Islamic education, or collective prayers that they themselves conduct," he said. The arrival of the Islamists in the north in March and the unrest that followed have left only 107 students out of 429 at the school.

Mali's education ministry estimates that around 5,000 students have fled to schools in Bamako and other southern towns since Islamist fighters of Ansar Dine, an Islamist group that wants to apply Sharia law throughout Mali; the Movement for Unity and Jihad in West Africa (MUJAO), a small Islamist group; and the Azawad National Liberation Movement (MNLA), who want to create a separate secular state in the north, seized northern Mali when a military coup on 22 March ousted president Amadou Amani Touré in Bamako.

The combination of conflict, harsh drought, food insecurity, and now the imposition of Sharia law, has internally displaced 146,900 people, and more than 150,000 others to neighbouring Mauritania, Burkina Faso, Niger and Guinea, according to the UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR).

Although schools have taken the brunt of the draconian Islamic laws, residents can also no longer watch television, men cannot shave their beard or use tobacco. On 20 June, a Timbuktu couple was flogged 100 times in public for having a child out of wedlock, sparking condemnation by shocked and angry residents.

"I was really shocked to see these poor youths undergo such punishment simply because of having a child. It made me cry. It's a shame," said Mariama, a schoolgirl.

"We are living in another world," said Attaher Maiga, a Timbuktu resident, pointing out that the Koran does not forbid football, tobacco or shaving one's beard.

But the Islamists defend their laws.

"Sharia has to be applied whether the people like it or not, we will enforce it. We are not asking anybody's opinion. We are not democrats. We are servants of Allah who demands Sharia," Sanda Ould Boumama, Ansar Dine's spokesman in Timbuktu, told IRIN.

Girls are forced to wear djellabas, or full-body robes. "On 7 May, Ansar Dine and its ally, Al Qaeda in Maghreb, reopened schools in Timbuktu and Gao, a town to the east, but students began a new system [of learning] unknown to them before the occupation of the region," Timbuktu Education Director, Abou Bacri Cissé, told IRIN.

"Not only did they impose a new education system, separating girls and boys in classrooms, they also separate the students in groups - boys learning in the morning, and girls in the afternoon," he said.

In classrooms in Gao, "Boys sit in front and girls at the back, like in mosques," Beydi Koné, a journalist in the town, told IRIN.

Amahane Touré, a teacher in Gao, said only 21 pupils remain in her eighth and ninth grade French class, among them three girls. Previously there were 69 pupils, including 19 girls.

"We are searched every day before going to classes for fear that we are teaching the subjects banned under their Sharia. They forbid us from teaching certain subjects like biology, philosophy, civic education, under the pretext that they promote infidelity," she said.

"I understand the plight of the parents who fled with their children, but as teachers we have the duty to teach those who remain, even if the conditions are tough, especially due to Sharia imposed by Ansar Dine," Touré said.

In the weeks after the military coup, heavily-armed MNLA rebels and Islamists gained an unprecedented hold over northern Mali. The MNLA declared independence soon afterwards, but the move was rejected by its Islamist allies as well as the international community, and caused divisions among the armed groups in the region.

The Economic Commission of West African States (ECOWAS) is trying to resolve the crisis, which has also worsened the suffering of millions of Malians affected by a severe drought across the Sahel region. The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) estimates that more than 3.5 million Malians are hungry.

Faced with the hardships, Mali's education ministry has been forced to postpone the June national primary and secondary school examinations for a month.

"Special sessions and make-up classes have been set up for the students displaced from the north," said Mahamane Baby, an advisor at the education ministry "This is to help them to overcome the stress and not lag behind.

subhanAllah! subhanAllah! they Love Allah (Swt) so much that they are following the command of Allah even in schools.......Wow such love is praiseworthy !!!

[textarchive]

wow there are still such kind of people in this world!!!!!! Im proud to be a Muslim!!

[Dabdklwu]

http://allafrica.com/stories/201206220890.html

My experience has been as follows. When such reports appear in the media then after a short while the US/NATO forces take military action against them. These media reports are for creating a mood. Usually the action is there withing ten days. Shorter that period and enough people would not hear the news and thus there might be a reaction against US/NATO action. Longer period after media report is also not conducive because people's mind do not retain info for long. So just wait and watch how the action unfolds.

[Dabdklwu]

And also the ''solution'' is clear ( read The Amman Declaration) ...

It is this one:
George Yeo, the Foreign Minister of Singapore, declared in the 60th Session of the U.N. General Assembly (about the Amman Message): "Without this clarification, the war against terrorism would be much harder to fight."

[VarenHokalos]

If the caliph becomes a non-Muslim, alters the Sacred Law- (N: such alteration being of two types, one of which consists of his changing the Law by legislating something which contravenes it while believing in the validity of the provisions of the Sacred Law, this being an injustice that does not permit rebellion against him, while the other consists of imposing rules that contravenes the provisions of the religion while believing in the validity of the rules he has imposed, this being unbelief (kufr) (A: it is questionable whether anyone would impose much rules without believing in their validity)

Believing in the validity of al-hukm bi ghayri ma anzal Allah is kufr by consensus.

[nikolapegayyyaasss]

Believing in the validity of al-hukm bi ghayri ma anzal Allah is kufr by consensus.

Agreed.

[FBtquXT8]

This news piece just gives evidence to another failed attempt of imposing an undefined 'sharia state' on people in the modern context.

Brother Usama has no alternative and the alternative he wishes to offer is very scary - very Hibz ut Tahrir and I think they are just misguided zealots. Abu Zakir's critique is more of a challenge but again his alternative is extremely dire (kingship).

I agree with you both, the greatest of atrocities can be brought about by trying to use the modern state as an instrument of re-establishing or restoring "Tradition". The downfall for the modern Muslim world is the concoction of bringing together the traditional modes of Shariah with the empowered modern state.

It's important that we keep in mind that in the past Muslim states did not have the means to control all of its citizens or to force upon even the holiest of laws upon all and sundry. By comparison the modern state has incredible policing powers and the technological and organisational means to impose a high degree of regulation. The hudood punishments and strictures of traditional Shariah codes must be understood in this context.Before the establishment of the modern state, in traditional communities, those in authority only had the power and the will to prosecute the most flagrant and socially disruptive breaches of Law. To a large extent such traditional practices work by mutual and communal self-regulation rather than by means of a powerful state, with all its hitherto unknown technological and bureaucratic muscle, enforcing traditional or traditional-seeming ideas. Religious authorities which have been brought in to certain modern "Islamic" states and polities to apparently force the "traditional" ways - some of the districts of Malaysia, for instance - are profoundly non-traditional.

A fascist, by definition, is a "traditionalist" who fails to acknowledge that the modern state is not in the slightest a traditional institution and so is unable to "restore" a traditional order - as if the imposition of "sanctity" by demonic weaponry is not itself demoniacal. Traditional Islam, which produced the amazingly fertile civilization of the Middle Ages, has absolutely nothing in common with modern so-called "Muslim" states that have resulted in the Shariah being turned into a regime of stifling brutality.