[Kokomoxcvcv]

Salam
i hope you are all well., my question is regarding the approach our deoband scholars take regarding the madhub. because they seem so strict and strong in their fatwa and fiqh etc, would that heavy invovlement prompt "sufi treatment"


I am speaking out of my comfortable levels, however i noticed Sheikh ali laraki (maliki) on facebook state



Fifth: I had said it many times: I do not endorse the modernist approach of jumping and cherry-picking from the madhhabs, nor I endorse the "www.weekopinioninthemadhhab4everybody.com" attitude. But I don't like deobandic rigidity nor puritanism (by the way, both go together). I consider them sicknesses of the heart that need sufi treatment.

would people agree and say this isnt correct and deoband has produced many sufi scholars aswell

[imictiorume]

Salam
agree and say this isnt correct and deoband has produced many sufi scholars aswell

you answered own question

[Kokomoxcvcv]

My apologise, im quite the idiot, but i know the answer my self yet, if someone was to question me, i would freeze like a deer before a car hits it, hence i would like some infor about the deoband ulema and apparently their rigidness according to Sheikh Ali Karaki. They only way that would be proved is to show how masterful they were at sufism. Would someoen give sample of that ? and also an answer to the op question

[imictiorume]

http://www.deoband.org/category/tasawwuf/

[DagoIgnog]

My apologise, im quite the idiot, but i know the answer my self yet, if someone was to question me, i would freeze like a deer before a car hits it, hence i would like some infor about the deoband ulema and apparently their rigidness according to Sheikh Ali Karaki. They only way that would be proved is to show how masterful they were at sufism. Would someoen give sample of that ? and also an answer to the op question

I have heard it said that the Hanafi mathab developed within the context of government support, even when the government was not very Islamic, the surrounding society was closer to fitra, riba and such things were not as widespread as they are today. Therefore people who follow the Hanafi mathab today still act as if the world is the same as it was hundreds of years ago and they tend to view the deen as more a individual and personal deen, and the government and other such things can be left to run as they are (secularism). This is why Hanafi ulama rarely if ever talk about the government and making it Islamic, and they give fatwas that allow the governments to continue to function as they are. They think governments and other non Islamic policies will only change in the future somehow when individuals rectify themselves and their numbers grow to some critical mass. Meanwhile we must just obey the current government, use their fiat or paper currency and not try to replace it with our own halal alternatives.

Also the so called puritanism manifests itself in a strict interpretation of the personal or individuals practice of Islam, they must have full beards, full face hijabs, no music, no films, weddings must be very simple and segregated, no photos or videos must be taken and at the same time one must not take riba loans or mortgages out....but we must obey all other Capitalist rules of business and the governments...somehow when many millions of people behave in this way Islam will become established and the government will change. I just do not see how this will change the government if no one even knows what a halal economy is supposed to look like and everyone including most of the ulama think that fiat currency, fractional reserve banking and central banks are normal. At least the Malikis in my opinion bring some workable alternatives when compared to the Hanafis.

[imictiorume]

I have heard .

do your own research

dont just listen to anyone and everyone

http://www.haqislam.org/imam-abu-hanifah/

Imam Abu Hanifah was born in Kufa, Iraq in the year 80A.H. He was the son of a Persian merchant and his full name is Nu’man bin Thabit ibn Zauti (more famously known in Islamic History as ‘Imam Abu Hanifah’ and ‘Imam A’zam’).

His father – Thabit – was privileged to meet Hazrat Ali (R.A.) who had at the time, made Kufa his capital. Kufa, at the time of Imam Abu Hanifah was one the most important learning centres in the Islamic world and was blessed with the presence of over a thousand sahabah at one stage in its history.

Imam Abu Hanifah is himself also a Tabi’ee (One who saw and benefited from at least one Sahabi).

At the age of 20, Imam Abu Hanifah turned his attention towards the pursuit of advancing his Islamic knowledge.

Imam Abu Hanifah’s Teachers

Imam Abu Hanifah benefited from nearly 4,000 Sheikhs. Among his 1st and the most important tutors was Imam Hammad (Died 120 A.H.) whose educational lineage is linked with Hadhrat Abdullah Ibn Mas’ood (R.A.). Such was his respect for his tutor, Imam Hammad that Imam Abu Hanifah says; whilst in my home I never even stretched my legs towards the house of my tutor, despite living 7 streets away.

Imam Abu Hanifah (R.A.) had joined his father’s business wherein he showed scrupulous honesty and fairness. Once his agent had sold a consignment of silk cloth on his behalf but forgot to mention a slight defect to the customers. When Imam Abu Hanifah learnt of this, he was greatly distressed because he had no means of the refunding the customers; so he immediately ordered the entire proceeds of the sale (30,000 Dirhams ) to be given in charity.

Imam Abu Hanifah was also keenly interested in education. He established a school at Kufa, which later became a famous College of Theology. Here he delivered lectures on Islamic Law and related subjects.

Fiqah or Islamic Law was systematically studied by his students under his expert guidance. A large number of his devoted and highly intelligent students worked under him for 30 years, and it is the labour of these students that gave us the Hanafi School of thought.

Imam Abu Hanifah (R.A.) was the 1st of the Imams to advocate the use of “reason” in the consideration of religious questions based on the Qur’an and Sunnah. He was also the 1st Imam to arrange all the subjects of Islamic Law systematically.

His most important work is the Kitab-ul-Aasaar which was compiled by his students – Imam Abu Yusuf and Imam Muhammad.

In {146 A.H.} 763 A.C. Al-Mansoor – the Banu Abbas Khalifa of the Muslim Empire at Baghdad whose capital was Baghdad – offered Imam Sahib the post of Chief Qadhi of the state, but Imam Abu Hanifah declined to accept the post and chose to remain independent. In his reply to Al-Mansoor, Imam Abu Hanifah excused himself by saying that he did not regard himself fit for the post offered. Al-Mansoor, who had his own ideas and reasons for offering the post, lost his temper and accused Imam Abu Hanifah of lying.

“If I am lying,” the Imam said, “then my statement is doubly correct. “How can you appoint a liar to the exalted post of a Chief Qazi?”

Incensed by this reply, Al-Mansoor charged the Imam with contempt, had him arrested and locked in prison.

Even in prison, Imam Abu Hanifah continued to teach those who were permitted to come to him.

It was here in prison that Imam Abu Hanifah was administered a dose of poison in 150 A.H. Realizing that the end was near, the Imam prostrated in prayer and passed away in this condition in the month of Rajab, 150 A.H.

The news of his death soon spread throughout Baghdad. The whole town came out to pay their last homage to the greatest Imam of Islamic Law. More than 50,000 people participated in the first Janaza Salaat. People continued to flock and before the Janaza could be finally taken for burial, the Salaatul Janaza was offered 6 times in all. For days, people came in large numbers to pay their respects at the grave side.


http://www.haqislam.org/imam-abu-hanifah-2/

[DagoIgnog]

[QUOTE]

do your own research

dont just listen to anyone and everyone

http://www.haqislam.org/imam-abu-hanifah/

I have read this type of description before, it does not change anything about what I said in my previous post however. The Hanfi mathab originated from Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) and his students, but it developed and grew within the context I just described. Hanafis do not talk about government policies they are largely (I do not like using this word because it is not really an Islamic word) apolitrical (non political). This is because the Osmanli khilafat was hanafi and it ruled for 800 years, hanafis took the surrounding society as a given not something that needed changing. This is still part of the Hanafi way even when the surrounding society is completely different. Hanafis are very secular.

[gennnniiikk]

I have read this type of description before, it does not change anything about what I said in my previous post however. The Hanfi mathab originated from Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) and his students, but it developed and grew within the context I just described. Hanafis do not talk about government policies they are largely (I do not like using this word because it is not really an Islamic word) apolitrical (non political). This is because the Osmanli khilafat was hanafi and it ruled for 800 years, hanafis took the surrounding society as a given not something that needed changing. This is still part of the Hanafi way even when the surrounding society is completely different. Hanafis are very secular.

ever read the manifesto of the taliban? they were hanafi and deobandi.
JUI is a deobandi political party in pakistan. ever read their manifesto?
ever read the manifesto of the sipah e sahaba?
you do realize that the same hanafis that ask for secularism in india will not ask for the same in pakistan?

[imictiorume]

[QUOTE=Abu Zakir;785120]

I have read this type of description before, it does not change anything about what I said in my previous post however. The Hanfi mathab originated from Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) and his students, but it developed and grew within the context I just described. Hanafis do not talk about government policies they are largely (I do not like using this word because it is not really an Islamic word) apolitrical (non political). This is because the Osmanli khilafat was hanafi and it ruled for 800 years, hanafis took the surrounding society as a given not something that needed changing. This is still part of the Hanafi way even when the surrounding society is completely different. Hanafis are very secular. russia and andalus both had islamic states ,they fell because their efforts were diverted from holding/propogating islam to getting involved in politics

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...l=1#post785086

[namaikaimvputka]

Salam
i hope you are all well., my question is regarding the approach our deoband scholars take regarding the madhub. because they seem so strict and strong in their fatwa and fiqh etc, would that heavy invovlement prompt "sufi treatment"


I am speaking out of my comfortable levels, however i noticed Sheikh ali laraki (maliki) on facebook state



Fifth: I had said it many times: I do not endorse the modernist approach of jumping and cherry-picking from the madhhabs, nor I endorse the "www.weekopinioninthemadhhab4everybody.com" attitude. But I don't like deobandic rigidity nor puritanism (by the way, both go together). I consider them sicknesses of the heart that need sufi treatment.

would people agree and say this isnt correct and deoband has produced many sufi scholars aswell

Of course, this is just Sheikh Ali Laraki's assessment, but I wonder if it is made from a distance or from up close?

Didn't he study in Morocco? maybe he has only come across the people who call themselves Deobandi but have become disconnected from sufism? Maybe he is unaware of the sufism that is at the heart of "Deobandism", or maybe the sufism of the Deobandis is different from his idea of sufism?

There is little point getting upset at what is probably an unconsidered and throwaway comment.

Al-Murabitun seem quite relaxed over many fiqh matters, for their particular reasons.

When Darul Uloom Deoband was founded it started a tradition of seeking to preserve orthodox Islam in the modern world, therefore their strictness and cautiousness over fiqh matters is also for their particular reasons.

no point in trying to make everyone the same.

[Zhgpavye]

It is best to ask Ali Laraki what he means by those comments.

I know he isn't a supporter of the Deobandis though.

[Kokomoxcvcv]

salam. thanks for the replies and hence the enlightenment. i will try to message the sheikh and seek clarification

[Tzqowwyt]

Salam



Fifth: I had said it many times: I do not endorse the modernist approach of jumping and cherry-picking from the madhhabs, nor I endorse the "www.weekopinioninthemadhhab4everybody.com" attitude. But I don't like deobandic rigidity nor puritanism (by the way, both go together). I consider them sicknesses of the heart that need sufi treatment.

would people agree and say this isnt correct and deoband has produced many sufi scholars as well

What to do if those whom you consider to have those qualities are already Sufis?


Back to square one...

[Zhgpavye]

Where had you seen his comment by the way ?

[MasTaBlau]

The likes of Imam Abdasamad Clark thinks very highly of former luminaires of Deoband!!
However one must agree that in recent times, deoband hasn't produced many scholars of their former self.

Do you think that anyone would disagree with your assessment? Furthermore, would you say that there are any institutions right now that are producing Ulema of the caliber of Deoband's early luminaries?

There is a dissconnect between academics, inteletuals and scholars unlike the former times. The rise of secularism and new money syndrome within the muslim community simply made this worse as middleclass (generally the academics) are not there to be found. This causes stagnation!
Allahualam

Please explain what you mean by "new money syndrome" as I don't quite understand.

[Maydayvar]

I don't think this is only limited to Deoband but general norm everywhere.
New money Syndrome - people from lowly background suddenly acquiring wealth by the virtue of their education and business. Often these people feel they are better then others because they have made it!! and view scholars of not worth their time because they are poor or hinders their process of mindless acquisition of wealth. The religious among them behaves with thug like attitude. For these people scholars not befitting their shallow view are not scholars! This in my view ruybida manifest.

The biggest danger comes not from far off enemies with their military might but at the hands of the new money people in all countries and societies.
Allahualam

[DagoIgnog]

ever read the manifesto of the taliban? they were hanafi and deobandi.
JUI is a deobandi political party in pakistan. ever read their manifesto?
ever read the manifesto of the sipah e sahaba?
you do realize that the same hanafis that ask for secularism in india will not ask for the same in pakistan?

No I have not read any of these manifestos, however I have studied under Deobandies all my life where I live in the UK and I have never heard them mention anything about Islamic rule and how we might be able to take some steps as a jamma to make it happen. The Alim I listen to always says you are a 6 foot tall man, make the shariah apply to your own body before you try to talk about khilafa etc. Banks are never criticised, riba is hardly ever mentioned. Secularism means religion is a private affair for individuals to follow if they wish, it has nothing to do with the way a country should be run. And the type of religion followed by the hanafis I know is perfect for this secularism.

I mean do any of the hanafis have fiqh rules of how Muslims might live in the world without a riba banking system? How we might be able to have a working alternative? As far as I know they do not, and most of their fatwas just make Islam fit in and work within the dominant capitalist system...not replace it.

[Maydayvar]

Murabatun movement economic model works only when it is applied at micro level to macro level. The people has to be ready for it and religious emotions and people are susspetable to implement it. In most muslim countries, people are too busy triying to make ends meet and is a miracle if they act upon atleast the fundemental of islam with understnading. Hence raising the god fearing bar is deemed importnat. However the murabatuns puritanical economic model ought to be adopted. How many people do you think are there willing to sacrifice financial model so easily!! not many. Reverts are the best suited for this and as such a large number of revert gravitate towards them.
Allahualam

[DagoIgnog]

The modern world system breaks up families, tribes and relations and makes everyone into a isolated individual. Atomised, alone struggling against the world, where riba reigns. Islam encourages us to build a jamma, a community, select a leader or Amir, there is strength in a Jammah...together we can achieve much more than if we are alone. We must create a strong Jammah and select an Amir...someone who can take us towards the halal towards the shariah beyond private religion into the realm of the deen, Ulama everywhere must be speaking about this and encouraging it, the ummah is it Intensive Care and needs emergency treatment now.

Murabatun movement economic model works only when it is applied at micro level to macro level. The people has to be ready for it and religious emotions and people are susspetable to implement it. In most muslim countries, people are too busy triying to make ends meet and is a miracle if they act upon atleast the fundemental of islam with understnading. Hence raising the god fearing bar is deemed importnat. However the murabatuns puritanical economic model ought to be adopted. How many people do you think are there willing to sacrifice financial model so easily!! not many. Reverts are the best suited for this and as such a large number of revert gravitate towards them.
Allahualam

[QYD8eQ8F]

Maybe the Shaykh was talking about the view of many deobandi who consider taqlid shakhsi nearly as wâjib upon the layman; or the tendency which exist amongst some deobandi to promote the deobandi point of view on every matter over issue where ikhtilaf exist. I'm not saying that all deobandi or who ascribe themselves to the deobandi manhaj are like this but some of us are sometimes acting this way.

wAllâhu A'lam.