[Wachearex]

As Salam Alaikum,

Is there any difference between the several schools of deoband in India and Pakistan? Is there one central authority (Amir) or unified leadership board? Do they confer with each other? Is it amicable, or is there a diversion and split? Does one school take the opinion/fatwa of the other school as binding?

Reason I ask is because I was recently watching this video by a top Deobandi Sheikh from India named Maulana Mahmood A. Madani where he [diplomatically and intelligently] answered a lot of questions by an Indian TV programme in defense of Islam and the Darul Ulum Deoband. That led to another video in which the respected Sheikh questioned Musharraf the american lapdog in regards to some offensive comments he made about Indian Muslims. What got me worried were the amount of disgusting comments by Pakistanis, in defence of the Shaytan Musharraf and calling the Sheikh a "munafiq" (astagfirallah) and what not. I assumed the Pakistani people respected the ulema of Deoband, considering the mufti of Pakistan is Deobandi and there is such a strong Deobandi influence there.

Gah, Some of the vile krap written by some stupid Pakistans in reference to the Scholar made me literally sick to my stomach.

Added a couple of photos of the Sheikh:
http://india.gov.in/govt/mpimages/rajyasabha/p2027.jpg
http://www.timescontent.com/tss/phot...d%20Madani.jpg

The Question + Answer video 1->8:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvwPN8deoUk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTIVLL6GlBw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgRFL45lnxU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYOYq6cE8sA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wohZKq3AHTs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T36xEIFambA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhjDZ9eCCqU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HViHaBTcXqs

The Video where Maulana Saheb confronts the Warlord:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=951iB8zW_wE

[Wachearex]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmwOoL5lObI

[6ZCo3xuK]

I assumed the Pakistani people respected the ulema of Deoband, considering the mufti of Pakistan is Deobandi and there is such a strong Deobandi influence there.

This line of reasoning is clearly wrong to my eyes.

The Mufti of Pakistan being Deobandi is not related to his "democratic election", or "popularity among the masses", but rather to his own (and Deobandis') unmatched qualifications and competencies in Islamic fields.

So, this doesn't mean that most of the Pakistani people is "Deobandi", in particular, for sure not those animals who hurl nationalist slogans or rhetoric against the "backward Mullahs", as we too often here from ignorant people.

[2puO4Rhf]

So, this doesn't mean that most of the Pakistani people is "Deobandi" ..

When I went to Pakistan, most people I met were Barelwi oriented or not very religious inclined to be honest.

[lzwha]

When I went to Pakistan, most people I met were Barelwi oriented or not very religious inclined to be honest.

I've had the same experiences. The Barelwi influence among the MASSES (not the Ulema or other religious authorities) is overwhelming.

[2puO4Rhf]

Today my boss was basically explaining to me how in South Africa it was mostly Barelwis until Tableeghi Jama'at took hold. She also was telling me how many times there would be such arguments amongst the factions that they would even go down to fist fights and worse! . I suppose now I understand why there might be on Deobandi masjid and one 'Sunni' masjid so close to each other (ie 2 mins drive apart max)

[GenryDont]

sorry to go kinda off topic....

: many times there would be such arguments amongst the factions that they would even go down to fist fights and worse!

no different at many Deo masjids and orgs around India/Pak or even here in the UK.

I dont mean to be rude but sisters (aalimah or not) mostly dont know the sort of scuffs and arguments that take place in the offices and meetings.

[2puO4Rhf]

sorry to go kinda off topic....



no different at many Deo masjids and orgs around India/Pak or even here in the UK.

I dont mean to be rude but sisters (aalimah or not) mostly dont know the sort of scuffs and arguments that take place in the offices and meetings.

No I meant the two factions would fight amongst each other. Though she was saying that the day when masjid matters had to be decided among any group, most laypeople would try to keep at a distance cuz of the ruckus. (when I say worse I mean knife/guns would come out, apparently). Even if its a norm, it's disgraceful. I still remember back when I was a teen, I was sitting in the masjid parking lot in the car when two uncles came out, one of them yelling and swearing disgustingly (what desis would call ma behen ki galiyan). I couldn't believe the same uncles I respected would resort to such disgusting behaviour.

Anyways, back on topic! Sorry for deviating away.

[pavilionnotebook]

Much of the general public in Pakistan would not hold the view of any scholar, be it Deobandi or Barelwi, as representative of their own view or 'binding' in any way. Many Pakistanis aspire to be secular now and anything with Western connotations is revered whereas anything with connotations to Islam is considered backwards. Therefore, Maulana Mahmood Madani criticising the Pakistani president is not acceptable to them and the reaction would probably have been just as bad if it was a Pakistani aalim. Coming from the mouth of Moulana Mahmood it is even more unacceptable, because he is an Indian.

But obviously this comtempt for the ulamah of India amongst the public does not exist in the hearts of the ulamah of Pakistan. There is a mutual respect that is not diminished by differences in opinion.

[fkjghfg]

As Salam Alaikum,

Reason I ask is because I was recently watching this video by a top Deobandi Sheikh from India named Maulana Mahmood A. Madani where he [diplomatically and intelligently] answered a lot of questions by an Indian TV programme in defense of Islam and the Darul Ulum Deoband. That led to another video in which the respected Sheikh questioned Musharraf the american lapdog in regards to some offensive comments he made about Indian Muslims. What got me worried were the amount of disgusting comments by Pakistanis, in defence of the Shaytan Musharraf and calling the Sheikh a "munafiq" (astagfirallah) and what not. I assumed the Pakistani people respected the ulema of Deoband, considering the mufti of Pakistan is Deobandi and there is such a strong Deobandi influence there.

Gah, Some of the vile krap written by some stupid Pakistans in reference to the Scholar made me literally sick to my stomach.

Brother, as our brother from Italy pointed out, your entire logic here is flawed. Here are some points to consider,

[1] Not all Pakistans are Deobandi,

[2] Not all Pakistani commentators on Youtube are Deobandi,

[3] Commentators on Youtube (or other similar sites) do not represent the whole of Pakistan,

[4] Major Deobandi 'ulama in Pakistan and India both despise and condemn Musharraf - there is no disagreement on this matter,

[5] Pakistan is a deeply divided nation, very sectarian,

[6] Deobandis are generally respected and referred to for religious issues by religious minded individuals in Pakistan,

[7] Who ever says Barelwis are in majority in Pakistan is parroting a Barelwi concocted lie, one has to simply count the number of masjids and madrasah's in any given city to get an idea. It's not easy to gauge this so a blanket declaration shouldn't be made in my opinion. Also we have to differentiate between the irreligious bidah prone people from the proper Barelwis.

Conclusion:

Just because a few people from Pakistan slandered Mawlana Mahmood Madani doesn't mean this was from the "Pakistani Deobandi camp". The Deobandis in Pakistan totally accept the Darul Uloom in Deoband and it's ulama, and the ulama of India in general. In fact, these people in no way would represent the Pakistani populace as any non scientific poll would do. I'm not saying there aren't messed up people in Pakistan who hate on the ulama, there are quite a few indeed and that's why I said it is a deeply divided country.

And now the answers to your questions,

Is there any difference between the several schools of deoband in India and Pakistan?

No.

Is there one central authority (Amir) or unified leadership board?

No. This isn't the Tablighi jamat or Jamiat Ulama Islam (political party). Deobandism is a maslak of the ulama not an official body with members and leaders.

Do they confer with each other? Is it amicable, or is there a diversion and split? Does one school take the opinion/fatwa of the other school as binding?

As i said it's not an organization of any sort. Deobandi madrasah's have their Darul Iftas, which is basically the fatwa-issuing organ of any institution. Some times the Darul Ifta's of some madrasah's don't agree with each other but that is in fiqhi matters relating to contemporary issues such as Islamic finance, as far as fundamental beliefs (aqidah) they do not differ at all.

[lzwha]

:...
[7] Who ever says Barelwis are in majority in Pakistan is parroting a Barelwi concocted lie, one has to simply count the number of masjids and madrasah's in any given city to get an idea.

I have not gotten my opinion from Barelwis; it is based on my own experiences. The Barelwi inclined are the overwhelming majority outside of the major cities (bear in mind that most Pakistanis do not live in Urban areas) and even within the cities, from my own experiences, they are the most numerous, if not the majority.

Regarding the numbers of Madrassahs and Masjids in a given city and the orientation of its ulema or management, how can that accurately reflect the orientation of the laymen in that area? What percentage of people in Pakistan, period, are Madrassah students? What percentage head Masaajid? That number is infintessimal and whatever evidence of the "Deobandiness" of an area that Madrassahs and Masjids attest to is applicable to that infintessimal number.

It's not easy to gauge this so a blanket declaration shouldn't be made in my opinion. Also we have to differentiate between the irreligious bidah prone people from the proper Barelwis.
.....

So how would you go about making the distinction? For myself, if someone engages (or believes in the permissibility of) making Tawaaf to or Sajdah around the graves of the pious, affirms the Barelwi understanding of "Haazir wa Naazr" for the Rasul (peace be upon him), and engages in a multitude of other bidahs like burning incense at graves, subcontinent-style Mawlids, etc. he is a Barelwi even if he never heard the name since these are the hallmarks of the Barelwi "Maslak" or "Minhaaj". Do you have an alternative way of looking at it?

[xT0U3UGh]

When will muslims understand what Islam is all about?

Brotherly yours
farook

[fkjghfg]

I have not gotten my opinion from Barelwis; it is based on my own experiences. The Barelwi inclined are the overwhelming majority outside of the major cities (bear in mind that most Pakistanis do not live in Urban areas) and even within the cities, from my own experiences, they are the most numerous, if not the majority.

Regarding the numbers of Madrassahs and Masjids in a given city and the orientation of its ulema or management, how can that accurately reflect the orientation of the laymen in that area? What percentage of people in Pakistan, period, are Madrassah students? What percentage head Masaajid? That number is infintessimal and whatever evidence of the "Deobandiness" of an area that Madrassahs and Masjids attest to is applicable to that infintessimal number.

Certain areas are completely Rafidi. That doesn't mean they make up the majority. The media will try to sell you that they make up 20% of the population of Pakistan but that isn't true. Just because they put up a lot of signs and banners and take out parades doesn't make them the majority.

Same can be said about Barelwis. They do a lot of lighting and banners and all that, their one masjid with a huge replica of the Prophet's dome stands out and nobody notices the 20 other small and big masjids in its vicinity.

How long have you lived in Pakistan? I don't think you're speaking from knowledge of the ground reality. A madrasah in any part of town yields much influence in its surroundings. Same can be said about masjids. Anyway, since no one has done a census on this - none of our "estimations" or guesses should be taken as facts. That's basically the point I'm trying to get across. The whole lie that Pakistan is majority barelwi is just an estimation and a guess of this sort. It's not scientific, there was no poll conducted. No one did anything, people just invented it out of thin air and started propagating as some fact.

So how would you go about making the distinction? For myself, if someone engages (or believes in the permissibility of) making Tawaaf to or Sajdah around the graves of the pious, affirms the Barelwi understanding of "Haazir wa Naazr" for the Rasul (peace be upon him), and engages in a multitude of other bidahs like burning incense at graves, subcontinent-style Mawlids, etc. he is a Barelwi even if he never heard the name since these are the hallmarks of the Barelwi "Maslak" or "Minhaaj". Do you have an alternative way of looking at it?

That's a fundamental mistake many people make, yes even Deobandi laypersons unfortunately make this mistake and end up looking like idiots in front of others. Many of these practices are openly condemned by Barelwis scholars, the books and fatwas of their Akabir like Ahmed Rida Khan are proof that they do not approve of these extreme practices such as making tawaf and sajdah of graves.

Those who do these things, smoke drugs and dance at the shrines do not identify themselves as Barelwi. This is no secret.

Barelwis though do the other things you have mentioned and they clearly identify themselves as "Ahl-e-Sunnat wal Jamat" and / or with Dawat-e-Islami.

[fkjghfg]

When will muslims understand what Islam is all about?

Brotherly yours
farook

Your point?

This isn't being discussed to sell people a version of Islam. It's just a discussion about the reality of the religious inclinations of people. This is true for any country in the world.

Generally speaking, the Deobandi ulama provide for the masses the most balanced and comprehensive understanding of Islam to the Muslims in Pakistan.

[Wachearex]

Jazak Allah kheir for the response guys. I have no idea of the political and religious climate of Pakistan, hence the questions. I assumed that the self-professed 'islamic' country of Pakistan would keep in adherance to their appointed religious authorities; much like Saudi or other such countries. This secular nature goes to further show the failure of Pakistan as a repacement of the khilafat, or even as a haven for Muslims (IMO).

I'm pleased to hear that the ulema don't hold disrespect and ill will towards each other. It would be nice though if they had one central authority, especially in this day and age of the Internet and easy communication. Inshallah in the future sometime.

[Matajic]

With regards to maulana mahmood madni's comments....He was saying that the indian muslims do not need pakistan's help. Also that terrorism is 1 way.i.e from pakistan and also his viewpoint the majority of hindus respect muslims. I cannot agree with the respected shaykh on these points. I am from the state of Gujrat. There is immense hatred and discrimination against muslims. In every aspect of life. I have previously posted statistics of how much % of muslims have jobs in the public sector. There is so much discrimination. This itself breeds extremism. The actions of modi made him a target.....etc etc....Muslims are changing their names to hindu names in certain places etc etc. By the way have things cooled down between maulana mahmood madni and his respected uncle maulana arshad madni.

With regards deobandi islam in india and pakistan well there is an obvious difference. The deobandi islam in pakistan is more vocal due to freedom etc. In India the ulema are more scared etc....This is a fact....

[Wachearex]

I think the climate in Gujrat cannot be compared to the rest of India - it is a haven for Hindu extremists. Of course these are just our opinions, but I'll share my experiences anyway. Of all the places I've been to, including both north and south India, there has been relative peace between the Hindus and Muslims. Of course, considering the lack of education on both sides, you have little flare ups here and there, but it is rare and certainly nothing to generally write home about. You get the similar amounts of 'flare ups' amongst muslims in Pakistan (Different political party sympathisers, ethnic groups, Shia, barelwis, taliban supporters & non muslim grps like ahmadiya); its ignorance that's the enemy.

From my experience, the Deobandi in India are quite vocal. They've never been muffled and have always openly made their positions clear, even if it went against cultural sensitivities. The perspective and approach of Maulana Madani may be slightly different to the rest of the ulema too because he is a member of parliament, and that requires a certain diplomatic approach. I, for one am in full support of our Ulema partaking in politics as opposed to randoms who worship only power. We know that Maulana's allegiance is to Allah first and foremost, and may Allah grant him tawfiq.

Back on topic though, can you please share what the issue was between Maulana Mahmood Madani and Maulana Arshad Madani? We can continue this issue in the brothers' section if you like (thread already open).

[Wachearex]

Ah, presidency of the Council. *sigh*

[Matajic]

I have my views you have yours. Brother I think you are not very familiar with hindus. If you think the problem is limited to Gujrat then you are sadly mistaken. The statistics prove otherwise. Yes southern India is better than the north. However as I said muslims are in reality 2nd class citizens. Try and get a job and see how difficult it is. The statistics don't lie. I prefer UK anyday of the week. However there is no doubt that there are many auliya from India. Delhi has always been a place of auliya. I am not anti-India by any stretch of the imagination. I am a neutral who is from India and have travelled to Pakistan. However I am not blind to what happens. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6938090.stm These statistics don't lie.

[Wachearex]

Very interesting article; it highlights a lot of factors, including social class, approach and background (I doubt many muslims would want to join the Indian army for example). I'm sure there is discrimination, but considering theres anti-discrimination legislation and what not in India, do you think the situation is all due to bigotry?

You're right, I'm not very familiar with Hindus in India. I want to make it clear that I've never lived in India in my life, but have visited and backpacked around there quite a bit. As a result, my opinion can't be taken as 'fully informed' because unless you personally live somewhere, you'll never really know the place. What I'm stating are just my opinions, and the insight I've gained from my relatives, and friends who live in India.

My personal belief (and i could be wrong) is that there is a chronic tendency for Muslims to not gain a proper education, and that probably plays a major role in their sub-standard state in India. In the south on the other hand, you have muslims in a much better state due to their different mindset. Further example is Sri Lakna, minority muslim population, but they're very well respected because they contribute positively to the society.