[Abraham]

I just dont like that he comes across or tries to come across as a scholar at the begining where he states I & a few scholars from the west.

perhaps, he meant that, he, (not a scholar, just himself as a muslim) and some scholars have given this opinion.

We actually do not possess the power of seeing through one's heart.

I've also been very concerned about this 'ankle' issue. But considering all the relevant documents and pondering over them collectively you realise it basically bans pride.

You can check out my hypothesis in the previous part of this thread.

I cant seem to believe wearing a full pant is pride in itself.

[MexicoCity]

You can check out my hypothesis in the previous part of this thread.

Do you know such 'hypothesis' is haraam for a laymen to derive?

Dangers of trying to make Home made Fatwas just reading a few Hadith or
Dangers of trying to derive the interpretation of Quran from ones own opinion without knowledge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXrK4B9Iy_Q

[Hankie]

perhaps, he meant that, he, (not a scholar, just himself as a muslim) and some scholars have given this opinion.

We actually do not possess the power of seeing through one's heart.

I've also been very concerned about this 'ankle' issue. But considering all the relevant documents and pondering over them collectively you realise it basically bans pride.

You can check out my hypothesis in the previous part of this thread.

I cant seem to believe wearing a full pant is pride in itself.

So basically Ulama got it wrong for 1400 years until you "pondered over all the relevant documents" and realised that clearly it's all about pride..
Masha'Allah, and who said there are no mujtahideen anymore!..

[illignocearia]

I learnt about the pants below the knees about 6 months ago & mashallah I'm loving it.. I never liked wearing pants as they feel very uncomfortable.

[cenRealliat]

Hope ur in good health... can u quote some traditional ulema of the past if possible..



wa assalam..

well the mu'tamad of the shafi' madhab is that its makrooh (not haraam) to let it go below. you can check this out on shafi' fiqh.com. the ulama advise to have it above though because you will be rewarded. in salah it is makrooh if its below but its also makrooh if you role your pips or fold them. pride is what is haraam regardless of the length of your trousers.
it is mentioned by Imaam haddad RA too that it is sunnah to have it up to the shins & if you find dificulty in that you atleast have it above the ankle.

[cenRealliat]

Do you know such 'hypothesis' is haraam for a laymen to derive?

he isnt deriving it, he is asking everyone to assist him. read all the posts & you will see this-he takes imput from all that have comented.

[cenRealliat]

So basically Ulama got it wrong for 1400 years until you "pondered over all the relevant documents" and realised that clearly it's all about pride..
Masha'Allah, and who said there are no mujtahideen anymore!..

the ulama have various opinions so we have had khilaaf for 1400 years. nobody was wrong. he is just bringing an opinion that the rest of you didnt know.

[sirmzereigMix]

Salaam

As a follower of the Jafari Fique, it is perfectly fine for us to have trousers that go below the ankles,

But from a different point of view, I dont see a problem with brother having trousers over the ankles.

I think it should be a choice of the brother.

If you wear a trousers that gradually just go down and eventually starts touching the dirty floors, and with the same trouser you use to pray in, than thats a cause for concern.

But if your in a office clean environment for example, than will be fine.

It should really depend on someones circumstance.

I do find it comfortable and more relaxing in my mind when wearing three quarter lenghts trousers for instance, as its more reassuring that especially if you go out to the city, that it isnt touching the wet grounds (especially if it rains).

Salaam

[RichardFG435]

As a follower of the Jafari Fique, it is perfectly fine for us to have trousers that go below the ankles,

I'm afraid we don't care about shi'i opinion on a sunniforum.

[Hankie]

the ulama have various opinions so we have had khilaaf for 1400 years. nobody was wrong. he is just bringing an opinion that the rest of you didnt know.

I don't think he's just saying "some scholars hold it to be "only" makruh and not haram"; he made a whole different point regarding "what's inside one's heart" and so on..
And that, too, through "personal ijtihad".

[sirmzereigMix]

I'm afraid we don't care about shi'i opinion on a sunniforum. With all due respect, this backward mindset which sadly some sunnis have is unfortunate. (not all, just some)

Islam encourages discussions as it encourages the mind to learn new and more things.

No knowledge is bad and thats a fact.

I was merely advising the jafari view on this position.

If you can discuss the other views such as hanafi, shafee, hanbali and maliki, why not the jafari view point?

It is only a discussion, as i am hoping through discussion, both sides can learn about eachother, instead of choosing to end a discussion merely because one doesnt belong to your school of thought.

It baffles me.... Do you treat others such as christians like this aswell? Or just muslims itself?

Remember what the quran teaches us, to be one ummah.

I understand there are different groups, but our mindset should still be united as one.

Its only by doing this we are abiding by the laws of the quran.

Salaam

[Hankie]

With all due respect, this backward mindset which sadly some sunnis have is unfortunate. (not all, just some)

Islam encourages discussions as it encourages the mind to learn new and more things.

No knowledge is bad and thats a fact.

I was merely advising the jafari view on this position.

If you can discuss the other views such as hanafi, shafee, hanbali and maliki, why not the jafari view point?

It is only a discussion, as i am hoping through discussion, both sides can learn about eachother, instead of choosing to end a discussion merely because one doesnt belong to your school of thought.

It baffles me.... Do you treat others such as christians like this aswell? Or just muslims itself?

Remember what the quran teaches us, to be one ummah.

I understand there are different groups, but our mindset should still be united as one.

Its only by doing this we are abiding by the laws of the quran.

Salaam

Because:
1. There is no such a thing as a "Jafari Madhhab".
2. We know your (Shi'ah's) 'aqidah.

[vioppyskype]

With all due respect, this backward mindset which sadly some sunnis have is unfortunate. (not all, just some)

Apparently the some is more than the rest brother.
Islam encourages discussions as it encourages the mind to learn new and more things. In fact Islam urges you to ask those who know if you do not know. This discussion and debate is Greek philosophy that has done little good for humanity.
No knowledge is bad and thats a fact. If that was the case then beloved Prophet (PBUH) would not have asked protection from knowledge that is not beneficial.
I was merely advising the jafari view on this position. We understand that but this is Sunni Forum. Any fiqh that competes with our way of life can not be taken as the in-house view. As an academic discussion it may find some place but not in those threads where authentic Islamic teachings are being discussed. If this fiqh is mixed with the rest then we will be guilty of misguiding the innocent people.
If you can discuss the other views such as hanafi, shafee, hanbali and maliki, why not the jafari view point?

It is only a discussion, as i am hoping through discussion, both sides can learn about eachother, instead of choosing to end a discussion merely because one doesnt belong to your school of thought. When a matter is asked at Sunni Forum the answer has to be according to the Sunni view. If that gets mixed up with the Shia view then it is injustice to the former.
It baffles me.... Do you treat others such as christians like this aswell? Or just muslims itself? Christians are cordially invited to Islam. You are cordially invited to conservative traditional Sunni Islam that is the real Islam.
Remember what the quran teaches us, to be one ummah. Golden point, the Shia sect should not have been created.
I understand there are different groups, but our mindset should still be united as one. Good point akhi but we are a bit human. Just before reading your post I was reading this:
Between nine and 78 people are said to have been killed in Wednesday's attack. This does not do much good to the psyche.
Its only by doing this we are abiding by the laws of the quran. The words are indeed very nice but they give a conflicting message when combined with above reality.
US is killing Muslims all over but they say that they are not at war with Islam.
Syrian forces are killing people and they have armed militia killing people and still they say they are not the culprit.
It is difficult to ignore all this.
May be you are here at a wrong moment.
Salaam Wa Alayk.

[nuabuncarnigo]

With all due respect, this backward mindset which sadly some sunnis have is unfortunate. (not all, just some)

Islam encourages discussions as it encourages the mind to learn new and more things.

No knowledge is bad and thats a fact.

I was merely advising the jafari view on this position.

If you can discuss the other views such as hanafi, shafee, hanbali and maliki, why not the jafari view point?

It is only a discussion, as i am hoping through discussion, both sides can learn about eachother, instead of choosing to end a discussion merely because one doesnt belong to your school of thought.

It baffles me.... Do you treat others such as christians like this aswell? Or just muslims itself?

Remember what the quran teaches us, to be one ummah.

I understand there are different groups, but our mindset should still be united as one.

Its only by doing this we are abiding by the laws of the quran.

Salaam

This is what I think should be done to what you think!


And then...

Thanks

[MexicoCity]

With all due respect, this backward mindset which sadly some sunnis have is unfortunate. (not all, just some)

Abu Bakr As Sideeq is the best of the Sahabah. period.

[sirmzereigMix]

Salaam Aleikum.

Because:
1. There is no such a thing as a "Jafari Madhhab".
2. We know your (Shi'ah's) 'aqidah. Your first point is not true... As even once Ahmed Deedat recognised the shia jaferi madhab to be correct aswell as Al Azhar university. Alhumdullillah there are alot of sunnis that are infavour of unity and do recognise the Jafari Madhab.

Alhumdulillah to your second point.

In fact Islam urges you to ask those who know if you do not know. This discussion and debate is Greek philosophy that has done little good for humanity. If discussion and debate is little good for humanity than god help us...... Because of the lack of discussion between shia and sunnis is the direct result of believers being killed, slaughtered in pakistan, afghanistan, iraq etc.....

If discussion is a greek philosophy, i should remind you with regards to the event of Mubahahila or even prior to that, which was when our holy prophet was discussing various islamic topics to the christians.

Or even the discussion of Imam Ali ibn Musa with jews, christians and other scholars from different madhabs in the famous debate in the palace of the caliph Mamooun.

I cant seriously understand your logic on this

If that was the case then beloved Prophet (PBUH) would not have asked protection from knowledge that is not beneficial. .

Please quote the hadith....

The value of knowledge being bad or good doesnt mean that a person will act on a bad knowledge, but means that one becomes informed of it and can even use this in his discussions with for example christians. To dismiss gaining knowledge on the pretext of a 'person' thinking its viewed as bad is ridiculous. My understanding of bad knowledge will differ from yours. If this is the view of everyone how can we progress in society or yet our spirtitual self, as everyone will dismiss what the other says as 'bad'.

Christians are cordially invited to Islam. You are cordially invited to conservative traditional Sunni Islam that is the real Islam. You are inviting me to sunniism in a islamic forum while trying to convince us that discussing islamic thought is a greek philiopshy.... In other words convert without researching in to it?
That isnt very inviting....

Real Islam is known to allah swt and its followers will be judged accordingly....

We understand that but this is Sunni Forum. Any fiqh that competes with our way of life can not be taken as the in-house view. As an academic discussion it may find some place but not in those threads where authentic Islamic teachings are being discussed. If this fiqh is mixed with the rest then we will be guilty of misguiding the innocent people. As it was a fique question, i made it clear that my view was from the jafari fique.
Also i love how you casually in a way decribe my fique as misguidance, when infact sunni scholars have classed the fique as correct. Unfortunantley due to fitnah (astagfirullah) its harder to find more scholars being more open about this.

When a matter is asked at Sunni Forum the answer has to be according to the Sunni view. If that gets mixed up with the Shia view then it is injustice to the former. I have answered this according to the jafari fique. Nowhere did i try to misguide under the cloud thats a sunni view or hanafi view etc.

Golden point, the Shia sect should not have been created. If you want to study the term 'created'. Please advise when the term Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamah was 'created' then? Was it before or after the term Shia of Muhammad (saw), or shia of Ibrahim (as), as mentioned in the quran?

Wa Alayk. Eventhough i know why you dont complete the full sentence to a muslim brother, i can only follow the prophets sunnah and complete it myself.

Wa Aleikum Salaam.

[vioppyskype]

If discussion and debate is little good for humanity than god help us...... Because of the lack of discussion between shia and sunnis is the direct result of believers being killed, slaughtered in pakistan, afghanistan, iraq etc.....

You missed Syria.
Regarding Pakistan we were very recently mourning, soberly, this martyrdom.
If discussion is a greek philosophy, i should remind you with regards to the event of Mubahahila or even prior to that, which was when our holy prophet was discussing various islamic topics to the christians. I follow the Islam taught by people like Hazrat Maulana Qasim Nanootwi Sahab (RA).
He did not debate with Muslims.
And if beloved Prophet (PBUH) allowed the Christians to express their beliefs it does not mean that he (PBUH) elevated them to his level by debating with them.

Or even the discussion of Imam Ali ibn Musa with jews, christians and other scholars from different madhabs in the famous debate in the palace of the caliph Mamooun. Islam was complete slightly earlier than that.
I cant seriously understand your logic on this I'll try once again.
Greeks thought you could reach truth just by intellectual exercise, mere reasoning.
Empiricism in particular, or science, is sufficient to prove that this was a faulty premise.
But we are talking about a different thing here - faith.
It is based on Wahy. Again debate or discussion will not add anything to it.
Of course discussion might lead to some clarification, what you call understanding but that has to be done in another thread.
When a genuine inquiry is posted on SF the official answer can not be mixed with Fiqh-e-Ja'afariya, the incomplete Fiqh and a Fiqh rendered undesirable because of its association with an ideology that is detrimental to mainstream Islam.

Please quote the hadith.... I render my apologies. May be some one else can do the search for you.
The value of knowledge being bad or good doesnt mean that a person will act on a bad knowledge, but means that one becomes informed of it and can even use this in his discussions with for example christians. To dismiss gaining knowledge on the pretext of a 'person' thinking its viewed as bad is ridiculous. My understanding of bad knowledge will differ from yours. If this is the view of everyone how can we progress in society or yet our spirtitual self, as everyone will dismiss what the other says as 'bad'. You have dumped your opinion brother. An opinion is amongst the worst things to carry.

You are inviting me to sunniism in a islamic forum while trying to convince us that discussing islamic thought is a greek philiopshy....

In other words convert without researching in to it?
That isnt very inviting.... You do have a point here akhi. Please do the required search. There is a thread here at SF about the beliefs of Twelver Shias. Go through it - there is enough search already compiled in that thread. I nearly puked on the first page. It might be difficult for you too but we are supposed to hold fast to the truth.
Real Islam is known to allah swt and its followers will be judged accordingly.... It might be seductive akhi - because of the slickness of the assertion you have made.
But remember it is we who are responsible for our actions in this life. You can not say on the Judgement Day to Allah (SWT) that Islam was with you so do not ask me whether I implemented it in my life or not.
As it was a fique question, i made it clear that my view was from the jafari fique.
Also i love how you casually in a way decribe my fique as misguidance, when infact sunni scholars have classed the fique as correct. Unfortunantley due to fitnah (astagfirullah) its harder to find more scholars being more open about this. This fiqh was not developed in its time completely - hence it can not provide the requisite guidance.
I have answered this according to the jafari fique. Nowhere did i try to misguide under the cloud thats a sunni view or hanafi view etc. I'll repeat it for nth time - this is not the place to serve that fiqh. Next there will be people who would like to guide people here according to Qadiani beliefs. Then Qur'anists. Jewish. The list will be endless.
But even if we have a finite number of opinions the Sunni Islamic ruling that the person is searching for will get drowned.
If you want to study the term 'created'. Please advise when the term Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamah was 'created' then? Was it before or after the term Shia of Muhammad (saw), or shia of Ibrahim (as), as mentioned in the quran? Trying to play smart akhi? Shias are not from Ahl-e-Sunnah wal Jam'aat and the buck stops there.
There have been earlier offers of unity but the perfidy is strange there. Unity for such people means that we Sunnis accept Shias as legitimate branch of Islam. Result: There will be branch A and branch B. This is not unity - that is division. And we are not responsible for the creation of that.
Eventhough i know why you dont complete the full sentence to a muslim brother, i can only follow the prophets sunnah and complete it myself.

Wa Aleikum Salaam. When I said Wa Alayk I discharged your rights.
Can not be chummier than that with you. History is such a painful thing - I shall not bring it in again.
But of course there have been examples of people overcoming the Shia doctrine - and I have already invited you to that.

[RichardFG435]

With all due respect, this backward mindset which sadly some sunnis have is unfortunate. (not all, just some)
Islam encourages discussions as it encourages the mind to learn new and more things.
No knowledge is bad and thats a fact.
I was merely advising the jafari view on this position.
If you can discuss the other views such as hanafi, shafee, hanbali and maliki, why not the jafari view point?
It is only a discussion, as i am hoping through discussion, both sides can learn about eachother, instead of choosing to end a discussion merely because one doesnt belong to your school of thought.
It baffles me.... Do you treat others such as christians like this aswell? Or just muslims itself?
Remember what the quran teaches us, to be one ummah.
I understand there are different groups, but our mindset should still be united as one.
Its only by doing this we are abiding by the laws of the quran.
Salaam

The problem is "ja'fari fiqh" is only in shi'as' heads, it never originated from Imam Ja'far Al-Sadiq () so I was just pointing the fact your post is useless on a sunni forum. So for us you're propagating something opposite to Islam and I would reply the same to a Christian who would try to pass his views as a mainstream islamic view.
I agree we should be united, but question is who is included in "we" ?

Really I say all this without any disrespect intended to your person. We just don't have the same basis so what benefit do we gain from each other ?

Wassalamu 'alaykum.

[sirmzereigMix]

salaam aleikum
I follow the Islam taught by people like Hazrat Maulana Qasim Nanootwi Sahab (RA).
He did not debate with Muslims.
And if beloved Prophet (PBUH) allowed the Christians to express their beliefs it does not mean that he (PBUH) elevated them to his level by debating with them. Well I follow Islam taught by Muhammad (saw) and his Ahlul Bayt (pbut).
In terms of Fique I belong to the fique of the ahlul bayt developed by Imam Jafer Sadiq (as).

Also the prophet (saw) did debate with the christians, just look into this event, and you will see that. He discussed things such as the topic of trinity, jesus (as) etc.

Islam was complete slightly earlier than that. Well if you are trying to claim that you know better than the Imam, than i should remind you of the hadith of our prophet when he narrated about his ahlul bayt that: not to question them (ahlul bayt) for they know more than you. This is both recorded in shia and sunni hadith.
But i believe Maulana Qasim Nanootwi Sahab is far more after islam, so why question the imam?

I'll try once again.
Greeks thought you could reach truth just by intellectual exercise, mere reasoning.
Empiricism in particular, or science, is sufficient to prove that this was a faulty premise.
But we are talking about a different thing here - faith.
It is based on Wahy. Again debate or discussion will not add anything to it.
Of course discussion might lead to some clarification, what you call understanding but that has to be done in another thread.
When a genuine inquiry is posted on SF the official answer can not be mixed with Fiqh-e-Ja'afariya, the incomplete Fiqh and a Fiqh rendered undesirable because of its association with an ideology that is detrimental to mainstream Islam. I really dont understand your logic as you also fail to provide hadith to back thiss theory up.

Its a clear contradiction to the teachings of islam.

Also when you say 'mainstream', you are only using the statistics of being the majority as your claim to be on the 'right path', when infact we know the majority will be inhabitants of hell? Im not saying to become a shia or sunni based on statistics, i would rather discuss a topic and let one decide for themselves with no pressure or statistics.

You have dumped your opinion brother. An opinion is amongst the worst things to carry. If thats the case, why have you got 4 schools of thought which each of them have different opinions of their own, often contradicting the other?

What about school of thought of concepts such as freewill, predestination... As I am aware sunnis have different opinions on this aswell? if opinions or freedom of discussion iisnt allowed, why are there so many of these opinions in the sunni world?

You will also find these opinions being based on people such as scholars but not being based upon the actual teachings of our prophet (saw)...

If you have hadith on these issues please provide these on topics like freewill, predestination? Where did this concept within sunni school of thought originate if it wasnt without discussion.

Abu Hanifa (founder of the hanafi school of thought) was known to regulary discuss issues with Imam Jafer Sadiq (as) (jafari fique).

You do have a point here akhi. Please do the required search. There is a thread here at SF about the beliefs of Twelver Shias. Go through it - there is enough search already compiled in that thread. I nearly puked on the first page. It might be difficult for you too but we are supposed to hold fast to the truth. I have read many materials on my faith, and also from sunnis who write about shias. Its funny how sunnis are telling shias what we believe in these books which contradict our beliefs?! Why not go to a shia and ask what we believe instead of guessing and making things up.

The things i have heard myself what we 'so called' belief can make you 'puke' aswell. So i agree with you there. (with the made up things that is).

As you know there are groups which only exist to run a marketing campaign against shias by writing lies to avoid people becoming shias..... Why is it neccesary to lie about the shia beliefs if the sunni world are so confident that our beliefs our wrong?

We are obviously going offtrack to the main topic on this thread so i will leave this now, especialy as i am a busy man.

If you would like to disuss certain areas in more detail, please start a thread and PM me about it and i will be glad to reply back to it.

Also , alhumdulillah I have many sunni friends (and wife) and i am pro for the unity.

Whatever people say otherwise is not my concern, as being pro unity is more liked to allah swt.

I havent got time for people having grudges in their heart, or no politeness or respect to one another. Its not humane, so forget muslim morals.

With this I leave.

Salaam Aleikum, Jamean Warahmatullah wabarakatuh.

Alhumdulillah.

[MexicoCity]

I havent got time for people having grudges in their heart, or no politeness or respect to one another. Its not humane, so forget muslim morals.

We too don't have time for shi'ites who curse and slander against Abu Bakr(ra), Umar(ra), Ummul Mumineen Aisha (ra) and many other Sahabah.
bye...