[JeremyBalll]

Abu Hurairah (RAA) said that the Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: “Riba is of seventy different kinds, the least grave being equivalent to a man marrying (i.e., having sexual intercourse with) his own mother.” (Ibn Majah, Baihaqi)

having intercourse with your mother is more dangerous and a greater sin the homosexuality with no shadow of a doubt

Allah promises a war with those who deal with Riba that he had not done on any other sin including murder,zina and homosexuality

And if you do not, then be informed of a war [against you] from Allah and His Messenger. But if you repent, you may have your principal - [thus] you do no wrong, nor are you wronged.2:279

I think very clear the Riba is a greater sin than homosuality without a shed of a doubt although it my not like it on your eyes but in the sight of Allah it is.

alright then

[tinamasak]

Brothers, Capitalism is an economic system of human construct. It is kufr and it is haram to support or espouse it even if one is forced to adhere to it.

How so?
In the West and increasingly in the Muslim world, the field of economics is taught in a way to portray capitalism as a natural evolution of human development rather than as an human constructed ideologically based system.
This is done by presenting the fundamental origin of economics as based on capitalist theories that have been adopted over time.
The case in point is the fundamental idea of Scarcity. Scarcity is the concept that since there is a finite number of resources and unlimited numbers of wants and needs, that people engage in trade. This transaction results in a relationship of supply of resources and demand for resources which gives rise to a price for a thing or service (commodity). John Adams is seen as the 'founder' of capitalist economic thought. His fundamental theories were buillt upon over the centuries to construct capitalism today.

Capitalists perceived that a 'free market' is required to allow for individuals to acquire their needs and wants therein. Economics teaches that human economies are a spectrum: free market economy (capitalism) sits on one end of the spectrum and command economy (communism) sits on the other end of the economy.

But Capitalist teaching suggests that the less government involvement, the greater the freedom of the market and the more needs and wants of the people are met. But this is not a Truth of reality, rather its an 'belief' of an ideology. In reality, Capitalists make several fundamental adoptions, such as privatization of natural resources and usury, as well as rely on government spending to sustain markets.

In reality, government spending and involvement in an economy is FUNDAMENTAL to all economies. The recent global financial crisis brought on by Wall Street abuse of the securities market has been directly connected to the repealing of government regulation and oversight in financial trading. More FREEDOM was given to the American financial industry and they engaged in the biggest frauds in human history.

In reality, there is a limited number of resources, but how a society defines those resources ( public property, private property, etc), defines, balances, and determines needs and wants will define how those resources are traded.

Islam recognizes the natural relations of supply and demand and how price emerges from this. And that a market should be allowed to naturally relate supply to demand. However, where Capitalism renders all resources to be private property eg. increasingly water is being privatized, Islam recognizes resources such as water, oil, gas, coal, etc to be public property managed by the government. Thus, these essentials are more equitably present in a market, rather than becoming the monopolization, or oligopolization of a few powerful companies or people.

The greater presence of raw energy resources in a market with technological and industrial capabilities is not conceivable in today's Capitalist world order. Today, private companies and regimes control raw energy resources for their own profit and power.
What kind of inventions could be produced and put on an open market in an Islamic state if these resources and the necessary facilities were made available for the public to invent and produce and the market opened to them, rather than everything tightly controlled for big corporations?
America is experiencing a serious decline in part because its dominated by corporate monopolies and oligopolies in so many industries that destroyed small independent upstarts and consolidated their respective markets around themselves.

For example, in this Capitalist world order, refining capacity for most nations is highly controlled by regimes or manipulative private companies, if not foreign companies. When oil prices were at their highest in USA in 2007-9 CE, the public via journalists and analysts discovered that America's oil refining capacity was methodically controlled by a few oil companies who bought out independent refiners and then closed and reduced their refining capacities in order to reduce supply that would drive up prices. The multitude of schemes and plots that private companies as well as foreign companies engage in for profit and manipulation of 'free market economy'. Not the least of which is getting Capitalist governments to engage in overseas wars for private company profit.

Islam has its own economic system which is NOT Capitalism.

and Allah certainly knows best of all.

aoa,
why you do not have a blog/website containing posts like this is beyond me.
May Allah make you a great da'i one day in sha Allah

[AccusaJalsBub]

The only reason capitalism is haram is because it privatizes natural resources?
How is it based off riba though?

[Boveosteors]

Capitalism is Not haram.

[Hankie]

Capitalism is Not haram.

Yeah, it's worse than that, a system built upon kufr.

[Boveosteors]

Yeah, it's worse than that, a system built upon kufr.

When the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was buying trade goods.

Then organizing a caravan and traveling long distances to sell them.

And when he sold the items.

He bought more trade goods with the profit, and then packed them on his caravan to take back to Mecca, and sell the goods for a profit.

That was pure and unabashedly engaging in financial "capitalism" for monetary gain.

So how you can say capitalism is kufr makes no sense.

[Hankie]

When the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was buying trade goods.

Then organizing a caravan and traveling long distances to sell them.

And when he sold the items.

He bought more trade goods with the profit, and then packed them on his caravan to take back to Mecca, and sell the goods for a profit.

That was pure and unabashedly engaging in financial "capitalism" for monetary gain.

So how you can say capitalism is kufr makes no sense.

Capitalism doesn't mean just selling goods getting profit through the sell, otherwise every economy on the would would be "capitalistic" in this meaning
Nor it means just recognizing private property.

[Boveosteors]

Nor it means just recognizing private property.

English please

[elects]

English please

I think this is what people mean when they say you're callous or rude, because it's obvious what he means, he means 'nor does it mean just recognition of private property,' but you feel it necessary to delay the discussion to request that he clarify.

[Hankie]

English please

Salama..

[Boveosteors]

I think this is what people mean when they say you're callous or rude, because it's obvious what he means, he means 'nor does it mean just recognition of private property,' but you feel it necessary to delay the discussion to request that he clarify.

Look brother, I did not understand his answer; and No, it wasn't "obvious" to me at all.

And your explanation my not be correct either.

btw Who appointed you to be the "Thread Police??

[peakyesno]

br. Revert,

Our ummah has many flavours. We cannot expect our Italian brothers to be as proficient as yourself in English.

Please step aside, because I am the thread police. You have been infracted. Please take note and avoid inciting remarks in future.

[SoOW2LeA]

English please

Capitalism as it operates and has operated in the US and Europe over the last 150 years has been what can be called Mercantalism and State Capitalism or now Crony Capitalism. This is where the government directs and controls much of the economic activities (trade, commerce, currency etc) of millions of individuals. Usually the government has strong links with 'private' corporations and helps them out with laws and even financial bail outs. This is not a free market where the government has a very minimal role. These private corporations benefit from their links with governments and together they rob, tax and control the rest of the population. Very little trade is halal, much of it is fixed and controlled by a few companies who have been allowed to dominate the markets through government legislation. Even the concept of private property and corporate identity or person hood (you can look these terms up with google) are not strictly Islamic. In Islamic law you cannot have a corporate person with limited liabilities, that exists beyong a human lifetime. Therefore Capitalism as it is is absolutely haraam.

[appleiphoneees]

Capitalism as it operates and has operated in the US and Europe over the last 150 years has been what can be called Mercantalism and State Capitalism or now Crony Capitalism. This is where the government directs and controls much of the economic activities (trade, commerce, currency etc) of millions of individuals. Usually the government has strong links with 'private' corporations and helps them out with laws and even financial bail outs. This is not a free market where the government has a very minimal role. These private corporations benefit from their links with governments and together they rob, tax and control the rest of the population. Very little trade is halal, much of it is fixed and controlled by a few companies who have been allowed to dominate the markets through government legislation. Even the concept of private property and corporate identity or person hood (you can look these terms up with google) are not strictly Islamic. In Islamic law you cannot have a corporate person with limited liabilities, that exists beyong a human lifetime. Therefore Capitalism as it is is absolutely haraam.

to be fair to brother revert i don't think he means capitalism as we know it and how you've described. he means free trade etc for profit. contrasting this to "communism" he feels capitalism per se in his own definition isn't haram. granted.

however, true capitalism as we know it (based on the above definition) and communism are both one and the same.

[zlopikanikanz]

Not sure if this has been pointed out but capitalism is normally based on a banking system which depends on profits from riba, thus making it HARAM.

[SoOW2LeA]

Now, capitalism is a human construct, it has many different schools of thought, and there are many views to consider. For instance, to give a crude example - America and the Scandinavian countries can both be considered as capitalist economies but they have fundamental differences on the issues of welfare, public service provision and taxation.

So to rule the whole idea of capitalism as ''haraam'' clearly shows the individual has no idea what they are talking about. But to make it ''Islamic'' by pretending the Quran or any of the other Scriptural sources clearly point towards capitalism is also wrong.

We can adopt any model as long as the ethical objective and moral impulse of the Noble Quran is satisfied.

Despite the many differences in Capitalisms (plural) there is essentially something that can characterise all the differences into one system which is why we give them the name Capitalist, otherwise we would say they were Socialist or Fascist. What makes them Capitalist? The answer is partly in the word Capital meaning something that produces more...something like money, or machines are known as Capital. Why is Capital given this primacy by Capitalists? Can a lump of Gold or Silver produce anything by itself? Can a suitcase full of dollars produce anything? The answer is no. It needs human labour and energy, but this is considered not significant, only Capital is King. Why? Capitalists or people who managed to gain influence in primarily Christian European countries gained the power to loan money or capital and charge interest on it...this gave them power over everybody else. They can print money at will and charge others to use it. This is why it is called Capitalist, even though we know that human energy is more important than capital. Capitalism is haraam because it practices Riba and is based on Riba. This is the central moral question.

[giturbewan]

move beyond labels

[Boveosteors]

Capitalism is the private ownership of private property and the creation of goods and services for profit.

And has nothing to do with banks or banking.

Although, most capitalists use banks to fund their business.

[SoOW2LeA]

Capitalism is the private ownership of private property and the creation of goods and services for profit.

And has nothing to do with banks or banking.

Although, most capitalists use banks to fund their business.

Take away fractional reserve banking, central banks and you have a more halal economy, but it is still haraam. It is haraam because private property according to Capitalist Law is joint stock companies, corporate personality and limited liability...Islam has its own laws about these and they do not conform to Capitalism.

Capitalism is many things, it differs according to the person defining it. Fascism also allows private ownership of property and the creation of goods and services, most economies are mixed economies not purely capitalist. Some people argue the US is a fascist economy because of the Military Industrial Complex that President Eisenhower warned about in his last speech as President.

[Fsfkkkjz]

Capitalism is the private ownership of private property and the creation of goods and services for profit. And has nothing to do with banks or banking. Although, most capitalists use banks to fund their business.

If it was just about the private ownership of private property and the creation of goods and services for profit then it would bee 100% compatible with Islam, but it isn't.

Islam is 100% for halal private property and halal trade, but Capitalism is a system based upon various laws that enshrines usury/interest/riba and various other economic and legal mechanisms that are contrary to Islam.

Furthermore no one can deny that the usurious banking system is at the very heart of Capitalism.