[JulieSmithdccd]

I clicked on the site hosting the article.
What is a Muslimah doing there?

Let us try to revise ABC of faith.
Modesty is a department of Deen.
Beloved Prophet (PBUH) said that there is pure good in modesty.
Our Elders tell us that compromising modesty weakens faith.
Weakening your faith is the most dreadful trend to adopt in your life.

Poor safiyyah ismail seems pretty confused, rather make dua for her clear mindedness!

If there a solution to confusions, doubts.
I suppose yes.
After opening the first statement of Noble Qur'an is : This is the book where there is no doubt ....

Bingo ! We should read the Noble Qur'an to get our doubts cleared.

[katetomson]

As-Salaam Wa-Alaiykum,

Many people when they hear of Muslims, or our religion of Islam; they automatically think of our deen as a faith that sponsors abuse of women, a religion which is intolerant; violent and masculine. Right now you are not helping dispel this false perception by your responses. Personally attacking someone is also wrong in Islam. As muslim brothers firstly, should you try to educate rather than agitate; at the end of the day we are here to learn from one another, and if I am wrong then I am wrong. Do not ever question my Imaan; because you are not my Judge, my judge is the Almighty.

The response to your article was to clear out the misconceptions it would instigate to the masses. Not for a nano second did I judge your iman. Its not my place. But just for sake of education, should there be an incident where someone's iman is to be judged (obviously duty of a qualified Qadhi/Mufti etc), then it will have to be on the apparent. There is a hadith which quoted by fuqaha (Shawafi') which gives this ruling. "نحن نحكم بالظاهر والله يتولى السرائر" (i.e we give rulings according to the whats apparent and relinquish the secrets to Allah").

HENCE my article. IT’S NOT AN ATTACK ON MY FAITH, rather questions on why are we at this junction. Sister, the attack on the faith is inevitable when something established is misrepresented to the masses. The whole institution of 2nd marriage (3r and 4th) is as much established in deen as the first marriage. If someone does not fulfil the rights of the first marriage, which we continuously find that they do not in the many marital disputes that come to the Ulama, then does it seem appropriate to strike a comparison between marriage and keeping girlfriend? Ofcourse not! The two are complete separate issues, not to be compared. One is halal (even if its laws are not being fulfilled) while the other is outright haram and impermissible. The only way of halalifying the latter is to convert it to the first. So the comparison is completely unacceptable from the religious point of view.

If you wish to engage people in jolting them to debate on why we are at this junction, then you can highlight the ills people do in the 2nd marriage and guide them to the solutions. Your article essentially demonized the whole concept of 2nd marriage. Definitely not the right way to tackle the ignorance of the issue.

From the best of my knowledge and correct me if I am wrong The Holy Qur’an doesn’t give any man the liberty to just take wives for the sake of it. In short it does. Quran does give the man a right to take up a second wife. The ayah in the quran is "And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan-girls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the captives and the slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice..." The only condition Qur'an presented to the husband taking up multiple wives is to deal justly (adl). You have made a couple of point about it later in your post. InshAllah I will tackle it there. But essentially, if you look at the ayah it shows clearly that the amr (commanding verb) is being attributed first to 2 , then 3 then 4. And IF one is unable to fulfill that condition of justice, then he must do what Ayah mentions last (i.e marry only one). The is just a brief overview of the ayah.

Under this ayah in Durr e Mansur Qatadah rahimahullah says that if you fear that you can't do justice with four, then marry three. If you can't do justice between three, then marry two and if you can't do justice between two then marry one. And if you can't do justice to One then stick to your slavewomen.

While the above is one of the tafaseer but it shows how much importance was given to this norm of the culture.

All I am saying is that SOME men have used the word of the Almighty to fit their own desires. That has been the case in many issues. Some women have used the same word of Allah and His Rasul to find justifications to shed their niqab, hijab etc. This does not mean that we display the whole institute of 2nd marriage as an ill. If you feel that 2nd marriage in time of Rasulullah (by his own practice) and by the practice of all the sahaba, was exactly how a 2nd marriage of today ought to be, then please edit your article and add in a paragraph giving praise to those who emulate that life of Rasulullah and sahaba. While you highlight the ills of society, also highlight that cure for many of other ills of the society lay in the sunnah of 2nd marriage as well. All that needs to be done is educate on how to conduct a 2nd marriage. That should be easier than demonising the 2nd marriage totally.

Women were allowed to own property, vote, and considered equal with man, work and allowed the right of divorce. All correct except the last part. WOmen do not have the right of divorce. The do, however, have the right to "demand" a divorce. They may even negotiate this divorce through the Mahr which they received. This concept is called Khul`.

During that period women couldn’t just go get a job or line up for welfare. Women in those times, and by "those times" we refer to time of Sahaba, were cared by their parents, brothers, husband, and Govt. They were more financially liberated than women today. Just as many men have left fulfilling the rules of polygamy due to ignorance, they have equally left fulfilling the rules of Wilaya (guardianship) over their subordinate women folk due to ignorance as well. We have brothers conning sisters for the inheritance, credit card thefts etc. Let alone take care of our sisters. So, women in those times had their assets and financial matter well taken care of than now.

As for welfare, Sayiduna Umar time saw the best wellfare system, perhaps only to be followed by Umar bin Abd al Aziz r.a

Hence polygamy was allowed to prevent fornication, adultery or prostitution; Please substantiate the above claim. I mentioned only one example of Sayiduna Uthman . What motives of fornication, adultery and prostitutions were there for Sayiduna Uthman to marry multiple wifes. History books show countless examples of female nobilities entering into polygynous relation. Why? Not because they feared poverty, adultery or prostitution.

Maulana Taliban has posted this on the forum before :

Hazrat Abu Bakr radiallahu anhu had 4 wives.
Hazrat Umar radiallahu anhu married around approx 8 times
Hazrat Usman radiallahu anhu married 8 times
Hazrat Ali radiallahu anhu married 7 or 8 times.

men who were spiritually, economically and mentally capable to marry more than one wife were encouraged to do so to protect the women. Again, without any substantiation the claim remains a mere claim.

Even if you marry more than one wife, according to the Qur’an you must do justice by them all. What does justice mean in this context? It simply means what you do for one wife must be done for the others. If you buy one a house, car, jewellery or other item you must do the same for all otherwise you are being unjust. If we view this in modern day society with the high cost of living-we begin to see how impractical polygamy can be to a man. It is certainly not just for sex. The Adl which prescribed to be equal between one wives is in Shelter (feeding, clothing) and intimacy nights. What it does not mean is that if you buy a chappi for one then you must buy a chappi for the other too. It mean just like you have provided shelter and clothes for one, you provide shelter and clothing for the other too.

وَأَمَّا عَلَى الْقَوْلِ الْمُفْتَى بِهِ مِنْ اعْتِبَارِ حَالِهِمَا فَلَا فَإِنَّ إحْدَاهُمَا قَدْ تَكُونُ غَنِيَّةً وَالْأُخْرَى فَقِيرَةً، فَلَا يَلْزَمُ التَّسْوِيَةُ بَيْنَهُمَا مُطْلَقًا فِي النَّفَقَةِ
[الدر المختار وحاشية ابن عابدين (رد المحتار) 3/ 202]

All I am trying to say, ADULTERY is WRONG, POLYGAMY is being misused, If that is what you intend to say then you really need to get people to review your articles before its published. Your article is no way close to that message.

Instead of agression against me, rather help set the record straight so that all of us uphold the Tenets. That is exactly what the response to your article was meant to do. You may read further on the institute of polygamy in islam in the detailed discussion that occured on the forum some time back : http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...zwaaj-in-Islam

I am not a scholar, merely a Muslim sister who is striving to be better while trying to show the beauty of Islam. Please, if you see something that is incorrect, may Allah forgive us and let me know so that it may be corrected. Ameen, and I appreciate that you took the time to come on the forum to comment. I also hope that you will overlook some harsh comments from your fellow brethren and approach your discussion here as a means to learn more about Islam. We keep the same intention as well.

[Lypepuddyu]

Salam walay kumm aapa Safiyaa, it was me who commented on your blog and requested you to read Maulana Abuhajira's post. I humbly seek forgiveness from every other member's post here [and mine] which you feel was a personal attack on you. Please forgive.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. MashaAllah, you are one sincere person
Sister Anybody, please respond. Can somebody [mods] ping her?

[JohnfAclambrJA]

I have a peculiar question... supposing a man has 2 or more wives, can he have conjugal relations with both (or more) at the same time, eg bring them all in the same place at one time?

A friend took all week to think, and said no, because women have aurat with each other too.

[EliteFranceska]

Answer is no.

for all future queries of that nature refer to Mufti Muhammad Ibn Adam's "Islamic Guide to Sexual Relations."

http://peopleofsunnah.com/downloads/...y/18/1542.html

It covers all these issues from the perspective of all 4 madhahib.

[RobertLS]

As-Salaam Wa-Alaiykum,

Apology accepted.

My articles do get edited; maybe after this furore, I will definitely pay more attention to the catch lines from Women 24.com. I will send some of your comments through to her.

I take heed on certain points which you have made and the validity of them as well. Looking back at financial independence, you are correct, back then women had guardians and family to see to their welfare as opposed to this day and age, women are left to fend for themselves. I have learnt something from the comparison.

Shukran Tawlib for acknowledging your error, but will again address this with my editor on the catch lines of the articles, which could result in misrepresentation or the gist of the article not getting across.

Once again, let us show the beauty of our Faith and work together to dispel the perception and myths of our BEAUTIFUL religion.

May Allah grant us all, the understanding. Insha’Allah!!


Wasalaam

[JulieSmithdccd]

Some things give me goose pimples.

[casinobonbone]

the starting point ought to be the arrangement of the two parties to enter into marriage contract. The perception that a marriage automatically has to start off as an affair entails that the author is A-ok with having affair before the first marriage as well. That affair before the first marriage is equally sinful, hence the above point is moot. Someone entering a second marriage keeping all his acts in order would not be sinful at all.



Clearly the author has a problem with Muslims entering into polygamous relation, otherwise history of polygamy pre-dates the 7th century. The idea of choosing the 7th century is perhaps to establish some sort of shar'ee proof for polygynous relation in Islam being strictly conditional to specific scenarios.



Intimate desire is as practical a reason as any other. If the desire is there, Islam has provided a halal solution for it. It has to be done according to the Shar'ee etiquettes. But that does not mean that the practical reasons are only limited to "strengthening alliances","save widows", "preventing protitution", "etc. [since we do not know what this etc refers to and why it cannot refer to just for practically wanting another wife]".

But seriously, are these the only example from the 7th generation?! In fact, from the historical perspective it will be a daunting task to find Sahaba who did NOT have polygynous relation. The reasons can be discussed later on, but first one has to accept that polygyny was as common a norm in those times as growing up. What alliance was being sought between Rasulullah and Sayiduna Uthman when Rasulullah salallahu alayhi wasallam offered not one but two of his daughters in Sayiduna Uthman 's nikah despite knowing that polygynous relations were so common. Did we for a moment think that Rasulullah was forming a strategic alliance with Sayiduna Uthman ? Or Na'uzubillah the daughters of Nabi feared prostitution. Or even, that no one would care for the daughters of Rasool of Allah because they are widows etc.

It was a common practice of the era. No one raised eyebrows at polygynous relation, NOR did anyone praise another for getting a second wife who was a widow. Infact, on the contrary We have example of first time marrying sahabi marrying a widow so that the woman can take care of his sisters! Honestly, not the lovey dovey picture of union of two souls there. Rasulullah in the same hadith encouraged marrying younger virgins so one can play with them and they can play with the husband.



Sounds more like detached from reality of life. The actual percentage of women who are financially liberated, mentally tension free and adequately educated is very low, especially in South Africa. Perhaps the sister never had to deal with any tellers and govt. clerks. Nonetheless, this is a claim, without much to display in real life.



Ofcourse there are many such women. The problem is not polygamy, its illiteracy of the rules and laws of Shariah governing polygyny. The proof is simple. The same unfair treatment is experience in first time couples as well.



Not really. Just calling it complex helps one secure a position where one can make many contradictory statements. If one gets caught.. oh well, its a complex subject.



This is yet another mitigation statement. Anyone who will argue the religiousness of the sister's opinion is obviously taking her over the coals.



According to who? non muslims?! What measure of yard stick is being employed here?



Well islamically, the perpetrator of the first, if proven under shariah court, is liable for stoning. The latter is perfectly acceptable. So which is worse? Not a difficult decision.



This relative wouldn't happen to be late Sh. Ahmed Deedat? This is his common answer to the issue of polygamy in Islam.



Actually it makes a very big difference whether its a religious opinion or not. Sister's opinion can by all means stay her opinion, but it can never be seen as an acceptable religious opinion. It is academically incorrect, substantially shallow and unsound.



And not only that, the opinion factually incorrect as well. most women are independent? most women like most men are slave to the rat race to secure a piece of bread at the end of the day. Men earn more than women, especially in south african context because they can take up jobs which are physically more tasking. Most women are stuck with cleaning houses, clothes and dishes to earn a meagre minimum wage. Those are the "most" women and not the very few % of middle class working women.



contradicts the previous statement, "there had to have been a starting point before the actual act of marriage … it had to have started off as an affair for you to have reached a point where you decided to make it less sinful?"



Not correct at all. The adultery before 2nd marriage remains a sin even after the marriage. It is not as though if you rectify the relationship, the sin gets waived off. Bonds of trust are equally broken in most first marriages, so 2nd marriage doesnt necessarily have to be the only cause. Yes, if proper laws are not observed, care is not taken then just like the fragile first marriage, a polygynous relation can easily become a war zone.



The scope was not really clear to begin with, so obviously the boundaries do not matter.



Yet, within those four a man has been given full liberty to marry the 2nd, 3rd or the 4th, without having to justify the position. That is the underlying truth. Allah gave the permission and entrusted the man to decide whether he can take up the second one or not. No amount of apologetics will justify ridiculing a perfectly wholesome concept of polygyny.

aoa,
vintage response.
perfect.
i hope the author realizes how lucky she is to have been refuted by hadrat abu hajira : )

[casinobonbone]

Answer is no.

for all future queries of that nature refer to Mufti Muhammad Ibn Adam's "Islamic Guide to Sexual Relations."

http://peopleofsunnah.com/downloads/...y/18/1542.html

It covers all these issues from the perspective of all 4 madhahib.

im quite sure many people will never read this.
because reading it involves:
a) investment of time
b) acceptance (even on a micro level) that we may be wrong
c) trust of scholars

most of our problems can be easily solved if we just listen to the ulema and place their opinions above ours.

[casinobonbone]

If you wish to engage people in jolting them to debate on why we are at this junction, then you can highlight the ills people do in the 2nd marriage and guide them to the solutions. Your article essentially demonized the whole concept of 2nd marriage. Definitely not the right way to tackle the ignorance of the issue.




That has been the case in many issues. Some women have used the same word of Allah and His Rasul to find justifications to shed their niqab, hijab etc. This does not mean that we display the whole institute of 2nd marriage as an ill. If you feel that 2nd marriage in time of Rasulullah (by his own practice) and by the practice of all the sahaba, was exactly how a 2nd marriage of today ought to be, then please edit your article and add in a paragraph giving praise to those who emulate that life of Rasulullah and sahaba. While you highlight the ills of society, also highlight that cure for many of other ills of the society lay in the sunnah of 2nd marriage as well. All that needs to be done is educate on how to conduct a 2nd marriage. That should be easier than demonising the 2nd marriage totally.

aoa,
some great points.

[Lypepuddyu]

im quite sure many people will never read this.
because reading it involves:
a) investment of time
b) acceptance (even on a micro level) that we may be wrong
c) trust of scholars

most of our problems can be easily solved if we just listen to the ulema and place their opinions above ours.

perfectly put

[BUMbaronos]

Would be great if the author can come on and reply to some of the points raised by Mawlana Abu Hajira. Also, I find her latest comments on her blog article dishonest to the message put forward by Mawlana Abu Hajira.

[RobertLS]

Firstly, due to the length of the response from the Islamic Scholar it had to be broken into segments, maybe if you waited a bit before crying incorrect information you would have seen the breakdown of segments. Secondly I have acknowledged all that he has said. Once again I have apologised if I have incorrectly quoted and remarked - my Creator will judge me and not you!

By the way, you are at liberty to read the responses on my blog.

I will post one as an example :

Zeeshan said...
Salams Saffiya
I saw the comments on the Sunni Forum. Firstly some men in those countries are the reason why we are depicted in a bad light. THIS IS A BOLD STATEMENT
There is honour killing, if a women does not conform to their idea of our faith they are tortured and even killed.
Some men even brainwash others into believing that women are the lowest form on earth.
You obviously researched your article, and you have done the correct thing in apologising if you have quoted certain things incorrectly, which in my view is great. Here in South Africa I agree with you, some men are using this as a compulsory act to take on a 2nd or 3rd wife. There is no shariah law in western countries so women are left helpless. other countries have shariah law as a governing law. My sister was never treated fairly, her husband who comes from a respected religious family chose to marry several times. He is now on his 5th marriage with a string of children and all are suffering as a result.
IS this right? We as a family maintain and help my sister, but the other women are orphans some are an only child no uncles and aunts and grannies etc come forward to help. this is SA! we all fighting to survive and provide for our immediate. No man wants to marry them as they are "anothers" burden. YOUR POINT IS NOTED! AND MY EX BROTHER IN LAW, AS PIOUS AS HE WAS, WAS HIDING AND LYING TO GET OTHER WOMEN. Do not let a few simple minds put you down. They themselves probably oppress their women.

Monday, 21 May, 2012

[BUMbaronos]

sister

Note the following:

- Please comment on the change in the title of your piece as published on women24 from "Polygamy is worse..." to "Is polygamy worse....?"
- Up until half hour (30 mins) ago, there where only 5 comments on your blog. Comment no 4 posted by yourself on Friday 18 May, was:

Apology by Islamic scholar on sunniforum
Ameen, and I appreciate that you took the time to come on the forum to comment. I also hope that you will overlook some harsh comments from your fellow brethren and approach your discussion here as a means to learn more about Islam. We keep the same intention as well. - This (above) comment is now gone. And the complete post by Mawlana Abu Hajira has been posted in the last 30 mins (after I made the above post).
- Also, I understand there are other comments on your blog that you have not approved.
- All of the above leads me to believe that you have been caught out more then once since your piece got published/exposed and you have since each time tried to implement damage control.

Allah guide us all. Amin.

[wllsqyuipknczx]

Saffiya are you a modernist trying to change islam to suite your whims and desires, just because you have had a bad experience with polygamy does not mean its bad, if a man can fulfil the rights of only 1 wife then he should only get married once and if he can fulfil the rights of two then he can marry 2 etc.

It is the influence of culture that is making you restrict islam to just allowing 1 wife and then modernists like you moan when men start following culture by not marrying divorcees, older women and widows, if you are not educated to give an opinion then please don't, you can still delete your article.

[Lypepuddyu]

sister

Note the following:

- Please comment on the change in the title of your piece as published on women24 from "Polygamy is worse..." to "Is polygamy worse....?"
- Up until half hour (30 mins) ago, there where only 5 comments on your blog. Comment no 4 posted by yourself on Friday 18 May, was:



- This (above) comment is now gone. And the complete post by Mawlana Abu Hajira has been posted in the last 30 mins (after I made the above post).
- Also, I understand there are other comments on your blog that you have not approved.
- All of the above leads me to believe that you have been caught out more then once since your piece got published/exposed and you have since each time tried to implement damage control.

Allah guide us all. Amin.

^I can attest to this aapa Saffiyaa will come around

[hansen384cbh]

Saffiya are you a modernist trying to change islam to suite your whims and desires, just because you have had a bad experience with polygamy does not mean its bad, if a man can fulfil the rights of only 1 wife then he should only get married once and if he can fulfil the rights of two then he can marry 2 etc.

It is the influence of culture that is making you restrict islam to just allowing 1 wife and then modernists like you moan when men start following culture by not marrying divorcees, older women and widows, if you are not educated to give an opinion then please don't, you can still delete your article.

In your first sentence you ask the sister whether or not she is a modernist. Without giving her a chance to reply, you go on to subsequently judge that she is a modernist? My question to you is, why did you ask whether she is a modernist or not when you have all passed your judgement?

[BUMbaronos]

^I can attest to this aapa Saffiyaa will come around

Some of the new comments on the blog are despicable to say the least. I suggest the sister either replies to these comments and makes her stance known (as these are appearing on a PUBLIC platform) or removes the comments completely.

[b3JOkwXL]

Where is that link btw?

[QQQQQ-Trek]

http://simplyme-personified.blogspot...-to-extra.html