[JasminBerkova]

Salaam.

A dawah organisation funded by the government, to help tackle "extremist ideology" says it all. And thats how the media and establishment promoted it.

Muslim Youth helpline is a Youth Helpline not an organisation which according to the establishment will help the emergence of a uniquely "British Islam".

I looked at the website and sofar the frequently asked questions page has not actually got any frequent questions on it.

But having said that it can in noway be compared to the "SUFI" Muslim Council...Which is a neo-con organisation.

[craditc]

A dawah organisation funded by the government, to help tackle "extremist ideology" says it all.

Several things come to my mind here:
- it isn't technically a 'dawah' organisation
- there is extremist ideology festering amongst our people, which I know you know. I am not talking about the legitimate anger and frustration over foreign policy, domestic policy, Islamophobia, etc. I am talking about people who feel it is their Islamic duty to sympathise with those who say suicide bombings is the way forward for our community and our faith
- not one of the scholars invited by RMW came out of the blue. All the scholars: http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/scholars.php have an established reputation amongst the awam and have been doing similar work for years if not decades. If there was a dodgy agenda to mutate our faith and our traditions, wouldn't it make more sense *not* to pick the traditional ulema?
- it is not helpful to say that it 'says it all', because we should not judge a book by its cover. If we find something specific that RMW has done or the scholars have done, then we should say so.


And thats how the media and establishment promoted it. It is a double standard to mistrust the media/establishment normally (don't we always complain about the prevalent Islamophobia amongst journalists and politicians?), but then believe them entirely, as you are suggesting, when it comes to efforts like RMW.

Since when do we care how the media and establishment spin things?



Muslim Youth helpline is a Youth Helpline not an organisation which according to the establishment will help the emergence of a uniquely "British Islam". That's a slippery slope - to say govt funding is okay for some organisations, and not for others. The Muslim Youth Helpline project which has recently received a grant from DCLG is almost entirely to do with figuring out what young British Muslims are feeling and how they should express it.

I looked at the website and sofar the frequently asked questions page has not actually got any frequent questions on it. Yes - it does say 'coming soon'. I hope they will cover all the points raised here.

But having said that it can in noway be compared to the "SUFI" Muslim Council...Which is a neo-con organisation. Agreed.

[maxsobq]

I'm not into tit for tat senseless arguments, but I want to respond to a few things.

I think that is a dated way of looking at things. Not all Muslims are like the Quilliam Foundation or Sufi Muslim Council. Also, there are numerous examples when historically, there was involvement between ulema and government with their independence maintained.

Yes of course, there were officially appointed Qadhis. That was when the rule was according to Islamic law. I don't understand what type of analogy you're using here. It doesn't make sense. The scenario of governments appointing 'Ulama is dissimilar to a secular non-muslim government funding organizations to further their agenda. Make sense?

There are inherent problems in quoting that source on this matter! But I will not go there! For one, Shaykh Abdallah bin Bayyah was Vice President of Mauritania and he is a giant of a scholar.

Regardless if one disagrees with someone, the point here is the comment he made not his personality. Once again you're analogy is not applicable in this case, i.e. what you mention about Shaykh Bin Bayyah.

Again, you are theorising. Major Deobandi organisations in the UK, including the Ebrahim College in East London not only receive government funding, but they use it for programs you might consider part of the 'agenda'. They are doing a great job with that money and ultimately, it is our problem if we cannot accept that Muslims have matured enough to be able to balance the apparent contradictions.

It doesn't matter what an Deobandi organization or scholar is doing. As far as I'm concerned, the original principles of the Akabir are reflective of the maslak, not what Deobandis in the UK or anywhere choose to do [as long as their activities are not backed by a large amount of 'ulama]. In Pakistan for example, Mawlana Salim Ullah Khan, head of Wifaq al-Madaris and Jamia Farooqia, has clearly rejected the idea of accepting government money even though in their case the government is Muslim! These are the people and organizations which represent the Deobandi thought because of the sheer amount of Deobandi scholars they represent.

Too late I'm afraid. See my earlier posts about the great numbers of Muslim organisations which are doing an effective job using central govt funding. It isn't ideal - I agree with you, but it is a reality and actually, I say good on them.


P.S. I little reminder - this isn't Karachi, Damascus or Kabul where you have to ask permission from the authorities to do the smallest things.

Ok, so we agree on something. In Pakistan, generally religious scholars or activists don't ask for permission [sometimes not even for street protests!] for their events or other activities. You are misinformed about Pakistan. I cannot speak for Kabul or Damascus since I don't how the situation there is.

[craditc]

I'm not into tit for tat senseless arguments, but I want to respond to a few things.

That's a good policy and I pray I don't contribute to the 'senselessness' of any argument.



Yes of course, there were officially appointed Qadhis. That was when the rule was according to Islamic law. I don't understand what type of analogy you're using here. It doesn't make sense. The scenario of governments appointing 'Ulama is dissimilar to a secular non-muslim government funding organizations to further their agenda. Make sense? I am not talking about Qadhis. Shaykh Hamza quoted Imam Abu Hanifah, [Arabic] "The wealth of the non-Muslims, if they want to give it to you, it is permissible to take it" in a direct response to this.

Also, I again ask the question, where is the evidence that an agenda (other than what Muslim geuinely believe) is being pushed?



Regardless if one disagrees with someone, the point here is the comment he made not his personality. One could argue that one's personality shapes one's comments, surely.


Once again you're analogy is not applicable in this case, i.e. what you mention about Shaykh Bin Bayyah. It is applicable until it is proven that the Muslim governments out there are somehow more ethical, less corrupt, less accountable than the government here. Illegal wars? Been there done that. Oppression of people and their speech? Been there done that.

There are scholars who live in Muslim countries and would never say, over there, that they say when they come to the UK. They come to the UK and are free to speak, particularly in critcising the British govt for example (and rightly so) sitting in British mosques and other British venues.

But if you ask them to say the same things 'back home', they would never do it. They know they will be hauled of to the black hole of the legal systems in these so called Muslim lands, ruled by Muslim governments.




It doesn't matter what an Deobandi organization or scholar is doing. As far as I'm concerned, the original principles of the Akabir are reflective of the maslak, not what Deobandis in the UK or anywhere choose to do [as long as their activities are not backed by a large amount of 'ulama]. It does matter to me because it shows a shift in thought or some would call it more nuance in their approach. Ebrahim College and other deeply rooted Muslim organisations in this country are not renegades. They come from a deep-rooted tradition and have found that they can balance the apparent contradictions.

And finally, if we want to talk about consensus or approval for the ulema, I know for a fact that the RMW leadership have consulted with the ulema repeatedly for guidance on whether their work is inherently problematic or whether there is merit. I personally heard one shaykh - a giant of a shaykh, say that the what RMW is trying to do, reaching out while holding tight to the traditions of our faith, is trail-blazing.

A few years ago, no one thought Yusuf Islam would pick up a musical instrument. No one thought Muslims would start voting en mass. No one thought so many young and old Muslims would be availing central and local govt funding (which is their tax money and their right) to do work that is of benefit to Muslims and broader society.

We have to give people credit that they have reached this point in our history after much consultation/delibration. It is not willy nilly (inshallah).

[craditc]

Source: http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/vi...5&art=9&a_id=1

First of all, there’s a verse in the Qur’an that is very interesting to me, and probably to most of you, [verse in Arabic] ‘If people incline towards reconciliation, incline with them’ Wa tawakal alAllah ‘and trust in God’ inahu Huwa Samiul Aleem. [Arabic verse] When they want to incline towards peace, you incline towards peace; and if they want to deceive you, if there’s some hidden ulterior motive, God is enough for you. Don’t worry about that, that’s not your concern. Peace is so precious, that anybody who reaches out for peace, you should reach out with them for peace.

And there is another thing I want to say about this government – who do you think this government is? They are called civil servants. Who do you think pays their money? Where do you think this money is from that the government has? It’s from the pockets of the British people, who pay taxes. There are 2 million Muslims in this country paying taxes; they don’t want a little refund?

No seriously, I mean, I’m just amazed at this. Abu Hanifah said, [Arabic] The wealth of the non-Muslims, if they want to give it to you, it is permissible to take it.

Our Prophet, Salallahu alayhi wa sallam, had the best of opinions. Whenever the Quraish reached out for him, he reached out for them. Mu’awiyah (we know in the Arabic tradition they call it Sh’ar Mu’awiyah, the hair of Mu’awiyah) is one of the most brilliant politicians in human history. He is a case study. The leadership secrets of Mu’awiyah would be a bestseller. Mu’awiyah said. ‘If there was a hair of a relationship between me and somebody else, if he pulled on it, I would release; if he would release, I would pull. A hair of relationship; just to keep that opening there, that potential.'

You should be thankful to have people like Mockbul Ali inside the Foreign Office. I have a good opinion of that young man. He’s a bright young man and has good intentions. He’s there representing your community. You live here, you pay taxes, this is your government. This is not Rawalpindi; this is not Karachi; this is not Cairo. This is not some funny place off in the middle of the Muslim world where if you say anything against the government, suddenly you’re in chains, being dragged away. No. This is a country that you are citizens of; [Arabic verse] ‘I swear by this land and you are a lawful citizen of this land.’

You are citizens; this is not subjection; you are not subjects. The British are citizens and subjects, but this is something superficial. The Queen can’t just arbitrarily send you off to the prison. We should be wary of some of these laws being passed as they are against the essential nature of this country, and we have to remind the English - ‘You are the people of the Magna Carta; you are the people of Habeas Corpus; this is your tradition – you gave this to the western world. You are the people of John Locke and you are the people of John Wesley, who this glorious hall is named after, one of the greatest reformers in western civilisation, who worked with William Wilberforce.'

[Cuccuccaltefe]

I am not talking about Qadhis. Shaykh Hamza quoted Imam Abu Hanifah, [Arabic] "The wealth of the non-Muslims, if they want to give it to you, it is permissible to take it" in a direct response to this.

Perhaps you should also enlighten the shaykh about the circumstances surrounding how Imam Abu Hanifah was imprisoned and then poisoned? And how he rejected the monetary support offered by the ruler of the day?

Of course, you may then term this is as not very nuance.

[craditc]

Perhaps you should also enlighten the shaykh about the circumstances surrounding how Imam Abu Hanifah was imprisoned and then poisoned? And how he rejected the monetary support offered by the ruler of the day?

Do you really believe Shaykh Hamza needs to be enlightened on this?

We all know rulers can be corrupt. I guess the tale illustrates how Muslims can be murderous, as anyone else.

After everything that Mansur did to the Imam, why would the imam NOT reject the money?

Can you make this comparison with the lives of the 1.8 million British Muslims who live in this country? Do we not enjoy government provisions for many, many other things?

If life here is so bad, wouldn't we all leave?

Of course, you may then term this is as not very nuance. you tease me

[Biashpainabix]

salam

i thought it was an oxymoron... lol

[JasminBerkova]

Salaam.

The fact is quite obvious the Politicians, the media have declared war on Islam, are pro-actively engaged in demonising Islam and Muslims.

So to pretend that somehow they are Supporting this Radical middleway out of Magnamity towards Islam is quite naive. Sure we enjoy many rights living in the west no one is denying that. Yes we have less rights in western sponsored puppert regimes in the muslim world.

To accept funds and support from a government whose agenda is to undermine Islam, is inappropiate, to say the least.

[Biashpainabix]

tru say

[craditc]

i thought it was an oxymoron... lol

The word Radical has very good meanings: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/radical

I personally like it because walking the middle path is a radical thing in a world where people expect us to be either one extreme or another.

I found the lectures on what the RMW is very helpful:

Shaykh Hasan Le Gai Eaton
Peace is only at the centre of things and never at the extremes...
http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/vi...&art=17&a_id=2

Habib Ali al-Jifri
Returning to principled behaviour and balance in fighting back oppression...
http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/vi...&art=27&a_id=2

Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad
This has nothing to do with futuwa. Be sure whose life you are taking...
http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/vi...&art=15&a_id=2

Moez Masoud
This middle way must have its deep roots our love of God...
http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/vi...&art=33&a_id=2

[Cuccuccaltefe]

Do you really believe Shaykh Hamza needs to be enlightened on this?
We all know rulers can be corrupt. I guess the tale illustrates how Muslims can be murderous, as anyone else.
After everything that Mansur did to the Imam, why would the imam NOT reject the money?

He not only rejected money, but also rejected a post. Care to delve into the reasons why? His rejection of Mansur’s monetary support not only stemmed from the oppression he subjected him to.

Can you make this comparison with the lives of the 1.8 million British Muslims who live in this country? Do we not enjoy government provisions for many, many other things?
If life here is so bad, wouldn't we all leave?
you tease me

The way of the Ulama has been from years before to avoid finances from quarters that wish to influence the way the deen is practiced. This is a simple facet of the way our traditional Ulama – from North Africa to South East Asia – have operated. People in the UK have every right to claim the finances that the government offers in their personal lives. However, when it comes to din and Islam, there is a necessity that our preachers, teachers and Imams are independently-funded. Read Shaykh Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuddah's book on the patience of the Ulama in face of difficulties; he has chapters full of examples of this.

Also read into the circumstances surrounding the whipping that Shaykh Saeed bin Mussayyib was subjected to.

Another point for you: The Dangerous Ideas Tour – April 10 –15 included Sikh Bhangra singers and hip-hop artists. The RMW is really becoming RADICAL. Rishi Rich? Is this the way of traditional Islam?

Then we had “Shaykh” Michael Mumisa, who promotes the idea that the Quran has myth in it! We started with the respected Shaykh Hamza Yusuf and Shaykh Abdul Hakim Murad with their respective claims that minority fiqh is the way forward and that the ruling for apostasy is outdated. And now we have Mumisa promoting that the Quran has myths inside it.

For my friends on SF, let’s just see what the press has to say about Michael Mumisa.
http://education.independent.co.uk/h...cle1197785.ece

“Surprisingly, the minister was unable to enlighten The Independent's reporter, referring her to Forward Thinking, who passed her to Sheikh Michael Mumisa, a University of Birmingham scholar, who had met Rammell. Mumisa isconcerned about the version of Islam that is put across at private Islamic seminaries and the Islamic colleges that offer degrees in Islamic studies validated by British universities. Rammell might be able to influence the latter group.

“Islamic teaching in the seminaries is based on a medieval curriculum which encourages Muslims to believe that Jews and Christians are their enemies condemned to perish in hell. Islamic teaching in the colleges is a glorified seminary curriculum written in modern academic language, says Mumisa. It does not ask serious questions about how to reinterpret medieval texts in a modern pluralist society.”

Seems like Mumisa is a well-connected individual within government aiming to “civilize” (read: reform) the mindset of radical (read: traditional) Muslims.

P.S. RMW has a bad taste for music. Rishi Rich is terrible.

[JasminBerkova]

Salaam.

Well obviously one has to dance to the tune of the piper. And the government is paying the money, so naturally they will actively seek mto promote a diluted version of Islam, and pseudo-sufis like this Mumisa chap will be taking center stage.

Several years ago, the then homesecretary Jack Straw stated we expect that a uniquely british Islamic indentity will emerge. and that is their objective. To destroy Islam from within and promote the Ed Hussains of the world. and the Radical Middlke ways.

[craditc]

The fact is quite obvious the Politicians, the media have declared war on Islam, are pro-actively engaged in demonising Islam and Muslims.

waalaikum-salaam

The question is what we do about the demonisation. This is a question bigger than RMW. It's for every Muslim out there. what do we do?

So to pretend that somehow they are Supporting this Radical middleway out of Magnamity towards Islam is quite naive.
I don't think anyone has said that. The RMW was not founded because suddenly the govt love Islam and want it to flourish.

The RMW initiative came out of the Muslim community after 7/7 when many Muslims realised it is not LESS Islam, but MORE Islam (i.e. more education and awareness about what our faith tells us to do in difficult circumstances) that is the solution.

It is an honest partnership - the authorities worry about terrorism and Muslims worry not only about terrorism but of a debilitating ideology that is eating out the core of some of our young people. Ultimately, everyone talks about the 52 people killed on 7/7 but WHO is thinking of the four young men who led themselves to believe there is no other way except to kill themselves. Who thinks about offering THEM an alternative?

the RMW is about saying don't be afraid of Islam because the faith can be a genuine tool against extremism, and the best Muslim is the best kind of citizen - confident enough to freely speak out against injustice, and confident enough to our faith lays out clear boundaries in the fight for justice.


Sure we enjoy many rights living in the west no one is denying that. Yes we have less rights in western sponsored puppert regimes in the muslim world. I'm just saying the brothers who make unequivocal judgements about how dire the situation here in the UK is, should keep this in perspective. This is what our scholars advise us anyway. Britain ain't perfect and there is so much work to do but ultimately, as the former President of FOSIS once said, I'd rather be in a jail in the UK than in some backwater prison in a Muslim country where I may never see daylight again. How many guantanamos exist across the Muslim world?

To accept funds and support from a government whose agenda is to undermine Islam, is inappropiate, to say the least. I agree with you and I know where you are coming from. Ultimately, however this was a difficult decision made in consultation with many shuyukh (and I am not fibbing about this) and ultimately, the proof is in the pudding (i.e. the work RMW is doing, that is featured on the website).

and that's without taking into account that our lives as Muslims are intertwined with government in many, many ways. I do pay tax and at the end of the day, those civil servants are MY and YOUR civil servants.

Maybe some of us protest by disengaging and maybe some of us fight the fight by engaging.

[craditc]

Another point for you: The Dangerous Ideas Tour – April 10 –15 included Sikh Bhangra singers and hip-hop artists. The RMW is really becoming RADICAL. Rishi Rich? Is this the way of traditional Islam?

The RMW should be very proud of hosting hip hop artists. If you want a discussion about whether music is halal, then that's another thread.

Maybe people think that most young people get their Islamic guidance from online forums like this. The reality is that there is a large number of young people who don't go to mosques, don't go to Islamic events and certainly don't come to Sunniforum. If you had come to the Mile End concert of the DI tour, you would have seen that richi rich was invited because he is currently helping a number of Muslim spoken word artists and poets. And he was hardly the highlight of the program.

read the responses to the survey conducted at the bottom of this page. May not be 'halal' enough for some, but at least it's relevant to our young people: http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/ev...hp?id=2&art=25

And the review of the Mile End Event: http://www.radioshak.co.uk/2008/04/d...deas-tour.html


Then we had “Shaykh” Michael Mumisa, who promotes the idea that the Quran has myth in it! We started with the respected Shaykh Hamza Yusuf and Shaykh Abdul Hakim Murad with their respective claims that minority fiqh is the way forward and that the ruling for apostasy is outdated. And now we have Mumisa promoting that the Quran has myths inside it. So you have problems with Shaykh Hamza and Shaykh AHM as well?



For my friends on SF, let’s just see what the press has to say about Michael Mumisa. Like I said earlier, the media is seen as the source of TRUTH when we like it, and the source of fitna when we don't like it.

shaykh Mumisa is controversial to some but I'm not sure all the ulema will agree he is necessarily that far off.


Seems like Mumisa is a well-connected individual within government aiming to “civilize” (read: reform) the mindset of radical (read: traditional) Muslims. Are you feeling hasad because you would rather it be you who is well-connected? I wonder sometimes.


P.S. RMW has a bad taste for music. Rishi Rich is terrible. I agree!

but notice how we blame the media constantly for sensationalising. You have done exactly the same with this event where you have picked one small element and made it look to people like rishi rich was the be all and end all of that event.

Great tabloid journalism

[Cuccuccaltefe]

You've become very personal in your response and carefully avoided many of the concerns that I have mentioned above. Thanks.

[craditc]

You've become very personal in your response and carefully avoided many of the concerns that I have mentioned above. Thanks.

I apologise if I have become personal. It's not right and I'm sorry.

You have to see though that your posts are quite disdainful as well, with personal comments about other people. It is not halal even if you feel you are on the 'good Muslim' end of the boxing ring.

My numerous questions to people have also been unanswered. I'm sure you don;t have time to go through all my posts and see where and what these are.

[JasminBerkova]

Salaam.

Which individuals and organisations where behind this "initiative" post 7/7?

I agree there are Guatanamos in the Muslim world and who is supporting these Guatanamos? Sure a Muslim scholar may be able to criticise the British government in the U.K. but if he actively critcised the British and their imperialist terrorism in a muslim country...The British government would have him arrested and tortured.

Also who was patronising, these so-called "extremists" groups in the early 1990's? after the downfall of communism, the west needed a new enemy, I remember the journalist, Robert fisk mentioning you cannot play "cowboys unless you have the 'barbaric' Indians." It is believed many of these extremits appearing
on our T.V. screeens years ago had links with British intelligence.

They needed an enemy a bogeyman a scapegoat, to disguise there imperialists agenda abroad. "We are fighting the evil of Islamic extremism" , A slogan they could chant. The colonial principles.

As George Bernard Shaw put it many years ago.." there is nothing right or wrong the Englishman, does not do he robs on business principles, he enslaves on imperial principles, he kills on patriotic principles. But the Englishman is never wrong"

And as Malcolm x stated.." we are not anti-american we are anti what America is doing around the world and what they do to get people to go along with it is criminal.."

The media friendly fanatics seved a purpose and which was to help the masses to support the foreign policy agenda of the british government.

Now we have pseudo organisations being sponsored to fuel a different purpose...!

[Cuccuccaltefe]

I apologise if I have become personal. It's not right and I'm sorry.

You have to see though that your posts are quite disdainful as well, with personal comments about other people. It is not halal even if you feel you are on the 'good Muslim' end of the boxing ring.

My numerous questions to people have also been unanswered. I'm sure you don;t have time to go through all my posts and see where and what these are.

I care to disagree. My posts didn't have anything personal about anyone. I mentioned Shaykh Hamza and Shaykh Abdul Hakim Murad with their respected titles, and highlighted some concerns about their views. I'm sure you're aware that many of our respected and honoured shuyukh, including Shaykh Nuh Ha Mim Keller, are not in favour of Fiqh al-Aqalliyyat.

I then mentioned Shaykh Mumisa, whose views cannot be condoned by anyone. There is ample precedent to make such comments from the way and habit of the pious and Ulama of this Ummah. I also find it strange that you attack me but cannot clarify the comments of Mumisa regarding the Quran.

Also, none of your previous posts address my concerns.

While you're on the issues of the media, care to consider why the rules for media persons includes a clause stating they should avoid kickbacks. Writers and reporters are asked not to take cash from official sources.

That might help you understand why a whole large number of Ulama avoid government funding, insha Allah. If the fourth-estate avoid official funding, then why not the Ulama whose role is even more important.

[JasminBerkova]

Salaam.

Okay your question Why is it that we accept some Media rhetoric and at other times we shout "Islamaphobia"? Is it not a double standard?

The answer is simple the media has an anti-islam agenda they will seek anyway means and methods to demonise Islam and Muslims.

So when they suddenly promoting some groups and organisations, and individuals it is quite clear the media are not doing to create a balance. Rather they are promoting these individuals who they consoidered to be " Progressive" and help "modernise" and promote a western agenda.

After all when the British media is demonising non political groups like Tabligh and moderate scholars like Shaykh Riyadh ul Haq, by selectively editing his speeches.
Then the question is pertinent why are they promoting other groups and individuals is it out of a love for Islam....?

So inconclusion it is perfectly sensble to view the media attacks on certain individuals and groups to be suspect and know that there is a clear agenda???

Simillarly when the Media promotes certain individuals then it is also sensible to examine what agenda the media has in promoting these people???? It is certainly not to promote "Traditional" Islam.

And franlkly if the initiative of this organisations was to present an alternative, they have undermined it themselves by allowing themselves to be associated with the government....And no organisation is going to achieve any great objectives when it does not have the trust of the muslim community.