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11-07-2010, 05:52 AM
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#1 |
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 Atheist/Agnostic to Islam?
Salam,
Is there anyone on this forum who has converted to Islam from being an Atheist/Agnostic? Furthermore, are there any sub forums on this site specifically designed for discussions surrounding Atheism and Islam? If not, which sub forum would best suit to pose questions regarding Atheism and Islam? I was raised as a Muslim but for the last 2 years I have slowly moved away from Islam, therefore I'm interested in having a discussion with an ex-Atheist/Agnostic who has embraced Islam. At this time, I'm not sure whether or not i believe in God; hence the request for an Atheist or Agnostic. ws |
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11-07-2010, 06:52 AM
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#2 |
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Salam,  i know at least one other member on here who moved away from islam and later came back. i also did the same. |
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11-07-2010, 07:09 AM
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#3 |
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Walekum-Assalam:
Brother, I don't know if I would qualify under your definition. If you want to know my story, you may read the Thread. However, I do believe I might understand what you are going through. If you want to discuss atheism/agnosticism vs. Islam, I would be happy to do so. Moreover, Brother Nouman Ali Khan, my favorite lecturer on Islam, went through a similar experience to what I underwent, although naturally everybody's journey to Islam is different even if they were born to Islam. Brother, the first and most important thing to realize is that you are not alone in undergoing the struggle of understanding existence, purpose, and the Divine. You are seeking answers, and that to me is the first step to understanding anything about yourself, let alone religion(s). I do not know how much time I would be able to devote to answering questions, therefore I may direct you to better resources than myself depending on how involved and in-depth the answers you may seek are. Also, I want you to please understand that no matter how many questions you may have that others answer, you will yourself be required to involve yourself in deep introspection, reflection, and deep exercises of the intellect because Islam necessarily asks of every knowledge-seeker to take that journey of self-discovery and realization on their own. Moreover, life is a series of steps and missteps, and every misstep can lead you more into a quagmire of the mind which incidentally also confuses the heart. Therefore, both your mind and your heart must be "healthy" and I mean "healthy" to imply "open" because a closed mind is only involved in the process of affirming what it already encompasses to inflate the superiority of the ego and the heart whispers the same affirmation because the ego distinguishes not between truth or falsehood. So, before you even begin, ask yourself how healthy your heart and mind is, because without its health, a person has already failed. |
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11-07-2010, 08:29 AM
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#4 |
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The following article is one of the best ones in this respect:
http://deoband.org/2010/03/aqida/all...-of-a-creator/ I do not know if the Mufti is still coming to this forum regularly but I am sure he will answer all questions related to it once he is contacted. |
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11-07-2010, 04:08 PM
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#5 |
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Thanks for your response. Did you move to another religion? The thing is, I feel for Islam and there is something that keeps me tied to it and it's hard for me to let go, however as i reflect and ponder, there are so many questions that are unanswered and i start getting all confused. Did you feel like this? |
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11-07-2010, 05:50 PM
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#6 |
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Salam Brother, brother,i would rather not discuss this in public as it is not something i am proud of. Please request my email address from the mods and we can discuss this in private. i was a communist that lead me to becoming an atheist. even then, like you say, i sort of never fully let go. maybe because of culture. anyway we can discuss this more in private if you like. |
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11-07-2010, 08:07 PM
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#7 |
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however as i reflect and ponder, there are so many questions that are unanswered and i start getting all confused. Did you feel like this? brother.Don't be afraid to ask your questions to people who may help you in clarifying you mind. May Allah guide you and us all. |
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11-07-2010, 11:17 PM
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#8 |
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Salam, |
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11-08-2010, 01:32 PM
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#9 |
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Many thanks for all your replies.
I've added other responses to this thread but for some reason they aren't appearing, so i hope this one will work..... Anyway, i wouldn't class myself as a Richard Dawkins either. In fact, i despise his arrogance and obvious attempt to incite hatred. Rather, I guess i see myself leaning more towards the Agnostic side of the fence, however my comprehension of God doesn't seem to fit any of the religions ( well to what i have understood anyway). I sometimes think that a superior being does in fact exist but then i have times where i think that if he did, surely the religions would be more stable.....and then i start researching religion but feel like i move more away. This is the conundrum that i face with. So, do you guys think that I need to understand the concept of religion first? Or do i need to understand God first? Or does it go hand in hand? |
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11-08-2010, 03:24 PM
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#10 |
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Many thanks for all your replies. I sometimes think that a superior being does in fact exist but then i have times where i think that if he did, surely the religions would be more stable.....and then i start researching religion but feel like i move more away. ? It's been stated before, but we can't judge a religion by its followers. Islam is perfect, Muslims, unfortunately, are not. This is the conundrum that i face with. So, do you guys think that I need to understand the concept of religion first? Or do i need to understand God first? Or does it go hand in hand I don't know if I can specifically answer your questions here, but I can share my personal story, and insha'Allah that might help. I can't really say that my reversion to Islam was really "miraculous" or anything. I wasn't at a point in my life where I was all depressed and looking for meaning. I didn't have any terrible problems that I was trying to solve with religion. I just bought a translation of the Qur'an one day on a whim, and then I finally started reading it a few weeks later because I was bored. (Astagfirullah, I know how bad that sounds). I don't really know how to explain the way reading the Qur'an affected me. I've read the Bible, I've read the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads, but they were just interesting reading. The Qur'an wasn't and still isn't like anything I've read before. I think by the time I was half way through Surah al-Baqarah I knew that I was going to end up a Muslim. At first I was sort of in denial about it. I didn't want to admit it to myself, and I certainly looked at the idea of having to pray five times a day, fast, only eat halal foods, etc. with disdain. Besides reading Qur'an, I was doing a lot of side reading, mostly about the Prophet (SAW) and the Sahaba (RA), and Islam in general. I think what finally made me admit to myself that Islam is the truth was reading the Sira. The life of Rasulullah (SAW) is probably the most inspirational thing I've read in my life (aside from the Qur'an), reading about the way he lived and who he was made it obvious that he truly is the messenger of Allah and the mercy to the world. After that I started fasting, because it was Ramadan, and I started praying (not entirely correctly, because I only had the internet as a resource at that point) five times a day and that sealed it. After I started praying and making Du'a, that was it. I knew Islam was the truth because, Alhamdulillah, Allah (SWT) answered all of my Du'a, every single one. A few days later I went to a Masjid and took the Shahada and learned how to pray correctly. This is getting pretty long and I don't know how helpful my story is anyway, so I leave it at that. It would be impossible to explain how much my life has changed and how great it's become since I reverted, anyway. I hope that this helped, even a little, and that you come back to Islam, insha'Allah. |
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11-09-2010, 02:19 PM
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#11 |
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Assalam-Alaikum Brother Confronted:
May Allah help you understand the Truth and guide you to the Truth. Brother, I wanted to share with you a story before I tackled your questions. Two adult men come to a well: each with a pot and each with a wish for water. Both men carry back the water-filled weight of their pots to their nearby houses. But two varying scenes occur at the men's homes. The first man finds a bucket full of water and the second person finds only a half-filled bucket. Same well. Different outcomes. Why? The second person’s pot was cracked, but he neither checked nor cared before coming to the well. And the first person ensured that he carried a functional pot to the well even before coming to the well for the water. That is why, Brother, I gave you in my post the advice to ensure that you have a healthy mind and heart. Because Brother in this lays an analogy for every knowledge-seeker: The well is that which carries knowledge; the water is knowledge; and the pot is the state of heart and mind. An individual can only carry with him or her that knowledge which is open to him or her by the strength and soundness of heart and mind. Therefore, I ask for a healthy, or as I have said previously "open," mind and heart on your part before you take this journey. You want to understand God, Brother. You want to understand religion, Brother. Both are easy but the difficulty lays in understanding self: Humans are always immersed in that which incurs loss. What is this loss? This loss is in people running after their vain desires and after the world to such a large extent that when anything of good is said to them they turn away in arrogance and ask, “Where’s your proof, if you’re telling the truth? Surely, you’re a liar or misguided or a fraud.” In doing this, they raise their nafs, or ego, up to the status of divinity as they take its impulses and illogic as god and lord. Unless you understand this deficiency in us as humans, you will always feel that God should fit your concept, that religion should fit your concept. Who are you? Unless you know yourself, you will never know Islam or Allah. I know the questions within you. I had the same questions. Brother, I thought I knew reality but I was living in an illusion. And what I used to think of as illusion was the reality, a reality that jolted my system and changed my worldview. I will write more… But for now… I will desist. But you wanted to know where to begin, with what concepts... No, begin with yourself. Understand humanity, its nature, and its will. In this only can you discover yourself. And once you discover yourself, you will be ready to understand. By the way, Brother, I will never ask you to suspend logic or reasoning as Islam is not a religion that asks you to take the road of solely faith, as I know many religions do. Islam asks you to try the Revelation, Quran, given by Allah to mankind, and if after trying the Revelation, you can find in it nothing but Truth to submit to your Lord. But that is a future goal. Right now, your goal is you. |
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11-09-2010, 03:30 PM
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#12 |
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Thanks again for all your responses.
Sister Anybody - I thank you for sharing that story and your sincere efforts. I agree with you, especially in reference to logic and reasoning as i believe that knowledge is one of the most important attribute of a human being and without logic and reasoning, we remain in a state of ignorance. I am aware that Islam teaches us this and i guess it's this point that keeps me somewhat hanging onto Islam even though it's by a thread. Brother Arif2 - Thank you for sharing your personal story. I've read the Quran and skimmed through Sahih Bukhari/Muslim but I saw a lot of contradictions. Please do NOT take this as an attack. I'm not suggesting that the Quran does have contradictions, but rather I'm only stating my perspective. I am open minded to admit that I could be simply failing to understand. Look, don't get me wrong, I understand that muslims aren't perfect and shouldn't judge Islam based on the people. Im always discussing Islam with my friends but we sometimes get into heated discussions when I start raising my concerns and various questions, so ive started avoiding these discussions and decided to join a forum instead. Hopefully i do not cause any issues with the questions i raise in this forum and if i do, please be patient with me. My intention is to clear my confusion and learn. Once again, I appreciate all your responses and look forward to our discussions. By the way, should i be posting questions under General Islam or New Muslims? WS |
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11-09-2010, 05:05 PM
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#13 |
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Brother Arif2 - Thank you for sharing your personal story. I've read the Quran and skimmed through Sahih Bukhari/Muslim but I saw a lot of contradictions. Please do NOT take this as an attack. I'm not suggesting that the Quran does have contradictions, but rather I'm only stating my perspective. I am open minded to admit that I could be simply failing to understand. Have you read the Sira? I'd recommend doing that as well. |
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11-09-2010, 05:28 PM
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#14 |
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As the brother said. One could argue that getting a Western secular education prepares one for atheism agnosticism and one must learn to mature and develop one's comprehension of Islam to overcome one's Western educational and ideological tendencies, insha Allah. So ask away. |
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11-09-2010, 06:53 PM
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#15 |
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Too many questions lead one to the depths of darkness, in Islam we believe in something called , "Listening and Obeying", just like the best generation the Sahaba RA! Some people try getting to clever and end up out-witting themselves, a tick of the shaithaan! DU'AA and asking for guidance is the key inshallah aswell as keeping the company of proper scholars, not uni graduates who think they know it all and so happen to goto an Islamic class or have read some books!
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11-09-2010, 08:18 PM
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#16 |
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Are you reading the Qur'an with any kind of tafsir or are you just going off your own interpretation? I'd recommend reading the Qur'an along side a qualified person's explanation of it. Most brothers and sisters around here can probably recommend a good tafsir, I have "The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an" with tafsir and translation done by Yusuf Ali. ^
There are interpretations and translations of the Quran which are better than Yusuf Ali's, since Yusuf Ali was unfortunately not a scholar in spite of his mastery of English. You may try Ma'ariful Quran by Mufti Shafii Usmani, available online at: http://classicalislamgroup.co.uk/index.php?view=tafseer Too many questions lead one to the depths of darkness, in Islam we believe in something called , "Listening and Obeying", just like the best generation the Sahaba RA! This refers to questioning with respect to trivial matters. However if a person, especially a confused Muslim, is having some doubts about core Aqeedah matters, he is encouraged and even obligated to ask as soon as possible about them and clear matters up appropriately from a Shaykh who can explain these Aqeedah points to him. It is somewhat analogous to the way he would rush to the hospital in the case of a medical emergency, since confusion in matters of belief is worse for the Muslim than death. |
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11-10-2010, 03:17 AM
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#17 |
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Assalam-Alaikum Brother Confronted:
May Allah guide you to the Truth and enable you to find the Straight Path. When I asked you to discover yourself, I did not mean for you to take a journey of thousand years. I only wanted you to discover the problematic aspects of the nafs, from looking outward at humanity and then within: 1. You are powerless. 2. You are untrustworthy. 3. You are inconsistent. 4. You are ignorant. 5. You are contemptible. If I shout this to a person on the street, the person will think that I am insane. But I am not insane. People are insane, for they live in this insanity all their lives, without knowing themselves for their insanity, and then believe of themselves something they are not. Why do I say you are powerless? You are powerless because you have no power over your existence. Even if you wanted to stop your death, you would not be able to stop your death. Even if you wanted to stop the sunrise, you would not be able to stop the sunrise. Even if you wanted to create an entire universe, you would not be able to create. Even if you wanted to destroy the entire universe, you would not be able to destroy. Why do I say you are untrustworthy? You are untrustworthy because your heart is not your own and it keeps on hungering. If you were given the most beautiful woman in the world, you will still not be satisfied. If you were given all the wealth in the world, you will not be satisfied. If you were given all the fame in the world, you will not be satisfied. If you were given all the entertainment in the world, you will not be satisfied. Why do I say you are inconsistent? You are inconsistent because your desires often conflict and your mood changes with times. You want to be altruistic. But you are also selfish. You want to be free. But you also want order. You want comfort of routine. But you also want stimulation of variety. You love. But you also hate. Why do I say you are ignorant? You are ignorant because you believe that all knowledge is discoverable and perceivable. Tell me what exactly you will be doing ten years to this exact second from now. Tell me what would have happened had you not been born. Tell me in quantifiable terms the exact depth to which your existence affected other lives. Tell me why some people in this world are born blind, deaf, or mute, but you were not. Why do I say you are contemptible? You are contemptible because you think of yourself what you are not. You think you are powerful. But you are powerless. You think you are trustworthy, but you are untrustworthy. You think you have knowledgeable, but you are ignorant. You think you are noble, but you are ignoble. If you understand the aforesaid aspects of humanity that encompasses you and I, you will be ready to understand religion. If not, you must search within yourself: Who are you? And Brother, others advise you correctly: A scholar is better versed than any of us on this Forum, unless the individual is a scholar, to advise you. But you are welcome to ask us questions. I am not afraid of the questions asked. I am afraid of the questions that are unasked in a mind for the person. So, ask. I do not promise to answer. But you must promise yourself to sincerely seek answers. Also, Brother Mu'min-4-life is correct in asking you to pray for guidance. Please know neither I nor anyone can guide you for we ourselves are in need of Guidance (asked in all five prayers by Muslims) and that is in only the power of the Guide to give or withhold. In the meantime, I will continue to write…so that you may understand. Because I know what it means to not know and because I understand what it means not to know, I want to tell you what you have to know before you can know. And when you reach this point of "know," you will know that you can never know all and will content to know that you need not know everything and can only spend life with what can only be described as the "nothing" that you do or can know. I might seem to repeat myself, but I am not repeating myself: You see, unless humans know about themselves, they will always turn away from Guidance in arrogance. This arrogance manifests itself into believing that Allah should conform to their thought pattern or that religion is something they can do without. Arrogance makes of people demigods and that endangers the logical mind and want of understanding inherent and fully present within each person. In the Quran, as you say you've read the Scripture revealed to Prophet Muhammad (SAW), you will notice that people turn away in arrogance, not because they know something better or have something better but because they believe themselves to be better. |
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11-10-2010, 04:33 PM
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#18 |
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Arif2 - Unfortunately no. I haven't read the Sira. Is it available online?
Usama2 - Well said. Mu'min-4-life - I agree with you to a certain extent, but not towards just listening and obeying. The Quran discusses a lot about knowledge and one can't gain knowledge by simply listening and obeying, without reflecting. I think in order to truly believe, one must research and ask. Yes, i agree with you that the questions asked should be for a learned person as opposed to some uni graduate. I believe there is a great difference between being a follower and a believer. DefendingIslam - Many thanks for the link. I understand that the Quran was revealed in Arabic and the translation does not give it any justice. Although i'm not a scholar in Arabic, i can read and understand it, but i do need assistance so i will refer to your link. Much appreciated. Anybody - Thanks again for your sincere efforts. ws |
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11-10-2010, 10:10 PM
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#19 |
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Arif2 - Unfortunately no. I haven't read the Sira. Is it available online? |
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11-11-2010, 08:26 PM
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#20 |
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Bismillah Al-Rehman Al-Raheem
Assalam-Alaikum Brother Confronted: May Allah guide you to the Truth and enable you to find the Straight Path. Experience is the harshest teacher, and experience was and is my teacher. If you feel (and only you can gauge this) that you possess an open mind and heart, I have a few excellent recommendations for you Insha-Allah in terms of Quran understanding. However, before I give you those resources, I wanted to do that which Insha-Allah will prove of tremendous benefit: Have you seen an onion? Layers upon layers. Spiritual, emotional, physical, and intellectual layers are part of finding religion. In the original post, I shared my emotional and spiritual facets of journeying towards Allah in the thread that I directed you towards. However, I wanted to share with you other aspects that complete the picture. Truly may Allah give me the ability to paint as accurately the picture of this journey as I can, for much of what I experienced is a little blurred in my mind, though in fact this was not that long ago. My experience from Brother Arif2 (hats off to him!) differs in that I did not come to Islam originally by reading the Quran. Over the years, my study on various religions (not Islam unfortunately at that point in time) was sometimes casual, sometimes intense but rooted in my deep, abiding and intense appreciation of history and anthropology. What opened my mind to Islam (when I commenced studying this beautiful religion which I studied the last) were the hadiths that I read. At that point in time, my mind (and heart) had been ignorant of Islam but I wanted to understand. Sadly, the old, dull and dense English translation of the Quran I used at times in this new endeavor confused with its language in terms of extracting deeper meaning (despite being clear) and I had not yet heard of tafsirs. Regardless, I had always been very fascinated with the supernatural, and at that point in time, I watched an interview of a Satan-worshiper who’d repented of his behavior to God. And what he said in that interview (you have to keep in mind that at the same time I’d started to read about Islam from sources like articles, publications, books) confirmed the existence of jinn and Iblis Muslims are given in the Holy Quran. I was disturbed and haunted by that interview so much so that I suffered a type of mild insomnia for days. At this juncture, perhaps for truly the first time, I experienced fear of the unknown and part of that unknown was the Divine. Prior to accepting Islam in my heart, I had been characterized by my family as stubborn. Yes, I was stubborn. And arrogant. And argumentative. And unforgiving. And grudge-holding. And any number of other things that were bad. So, I was not one to give up easily in regards to what I was learning, though much made sense. I loved the world. And Islam did not seem fit in my worldview which comprised of running after world, people, and things. But what I read about Islam also fascinated. (I did not ever feel that way about other religions since before or after.) And I started to wonder at myself and look inside myself more and more. I did not like what I saw. (I had not heard or read about nafs yet.) The same yearning, the yearning I’d always felt in my heart started becoming more pronounced as I started to learn about Islam. I was lost. (Then I did not know I was searching for inner peace as at that time the feeling of yearning had no name in my mind. In a crowd, with family or friends or at school, that feeling drowned in either the noise of the gaiety or the business of life and only in isolation did I feel such pangs.) And if you’d asked me then if I was lost, I would have said no. I was, only I didn’t know. Later, I started listening to audio and video lectures. And I started to piece what the Quran framed and then I did what my logic told me I needed to do for my own: devise a test to figure out if the Quran was the Truth. If not, well, I was safe. If it was, well...I didn’t want to think that far ahead. (I’ll tell you about the test I devised later as it was meant to try other religions for their veracity in terms of comparative analyses also so that it might place religion into perspective for my thinking mind.) Only Quran passed my acid test. I was dumbfounded. I retained doubts about God, though I was perhaps in hindsight only biding my time knowing that I had found the Truth but not ready to accept. You have to realize that I had been taught via my schooling and culture that religion is only a means to an end: to control the less-intellectually-inclined masses. (Also, my experience with religious people of various major religions at that time had been unpleasant as I generally found them intolerant, mean, and bigoted towards others.) Having grown older does not mean we do not revert to children in our behavior when we sometimes want to derive comfort from another human being. Thus, I went to my mother: "How do you know for sure Allah exists?" I did not know how to respond to the inquiring look on her face or the questioning tone in her voice. But thankfully, she did not push. She told me to look at the world and that Allah can best be understood in essence as a Power with power over the world. (She said many other points pertinent to this, but for the first time, I was starting to see the bigger picture.) Pondering over ayats of the Quran took hours of my time. (Many incidents in my life, previously baffling, made sense in light of how Quran described the relationship of creation to Allah.) I had not prayed salat for years. I had been very ignorant and only coming out of ignorance. I didn’t know what was happening to my mind and heart. I now believed but something was holding me back. And I didn’t know what. I remember praying sincerely and the prayer words were of a person humbled. I wanted to be guided. I felt peace in my heart after making my salat and dua. (Incidentally, I made dua at what is known by Muslims as the Night of Power during Ramadan.) But something strange had happened. Overnight, my heart changed. Overnight, I submitted. I found myself a living proof that miracles did occur and sometimes those miracles were of the heart. (Many other beautiful aspects of what happened overnight exist, which I do not share here because they are private, between me and Allah.) Slowly, my family started to see the positive changes that Islam had engendered in me and Alhamdullilah I believe Allah guided and inspired them after me to learn or better themselves in regards to the gift Allah has bestowed upon us. Now, I want to tell you what test I had devised which I had mentioned earlier. Why the acid test? Well, all religions propose to have the truth, and I needed to know whether the said religion indeed possessed the Truth independent of any rhetoric. (Prior to this, like I’d said I had studied various texts of different religions.) The test I devised was based on these points as follows: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • The religion would have to satisfy the intellect and the heart. (If it failed to satisfy the intellect, I’d consider the religion absent of meeting standards of reasonableness. If it failed to satisfy the heart, I’d consider the religion devoid of spirituality.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • The religion should be accessible. (When reading the original religious text of the religion, I should feel that the text is talking to me as an individual and also humanity at large. Also, the text’s words should, at the most superficial level of reading, at least offer enough basic information that the least intelligent individual could grasp its overarching and layered message. Additionally, the meanings within should comprise of exoteric connotations before any presumably esoteric.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • The religion’s text should be immutable if the origin of the text is proposed to be divine. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • Clear and convincing proofs should exist within the text. (I was not interested in any circular reasoning. This is to say—I was not looking for a text to say that there is a God because the text says so and the text is the word of God.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- • The religion should explicitly define, delineate and lay out practical courses of action to attain the religion’s goal. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This was the test that only Quran had passed. No other religion had passed. I leave to your imagination on what points other religions failed. But that is what had so astonished. Even today, I continue to be fascinated by the beauty and preservation and miraculous nature of the Quran. You are very fortunate, Brother, in that you have been given an opportunity. So, you must make the wisest choices: The first and most important thing to do is to refer yourself in terms of knowledge-cure to proper resources, many of which I did not discover until later (after my submission), which I now pray will benefit you (in order of importance): Surah Fatiha Part 1 (of 5) (Audio) (This is only Part 1 of the YouTube lecture; so, please continue to click on other related parts until you’ve heard the full lecture.) Divine Speech 1 Prologue (Video) Divine Speech 2 Prologue (Video) Miracles of the Quran (Site) These should be enough Insha-Allah for the time being that you search for answers within and outside of yourself. I am sure that other Brothers and Sisters would be more than willing to lend their assistance to you with anything you need (as I might not be able to do so for a while after today). |
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