[RemiVedia]

Compared with evidence of God? I'd say you should be worried.

-Jason

Worried? Hardly.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=109235951

On evolution:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post460858681
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post411245471
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post259571351

[Innoloinarp]

Worried? Hardly.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=109235951

On evolution:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post460858681
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post411245471
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post259571351

Masha allah, the guy SK is very knowledgeable and dealt well with the other guy. it must have been hard to read the same meaningless garbage over and over again and keep replying with such quality. Atheists dont know it but many of them just falsely believe in something; unfortunately that thing is themselves, and that is why i see them as arrogant.

[Diortarkivoff]

salamualaikum brother, my islamic teacher taught us that the children of adam and hawa were born in 40 sets of twins (boy and girl) and werent allowed to marry from the same set but could marry others.

Brother, did your teacher produce actual text regarding that?

the reality is such a 'lesson' is based on conjecture and speculation when it lacks actual text.
Speculation is NOT grounds for belief, certainty is.

Certainty, such as the Quran is the Word of Allah and Muhammad is the Last Messenger of Allah .

Evolution is a workable, practical model in terms of scientific discovery and bio-medical development, but it does NOT reach Islam's level of certainty, especially regarding the origins and development of Adam and his sons.

Simply put, we do NOT know the Shariah of Adam (as). Nor do we know the reality, or the circumstances. We don't even know the Shariah of Ibrahim (as).
We don't know about Neanderthal men: who were they, where were they from; or Flores men (tiny people living on islands of south Pacific along with humans), who were they, where were they from. Were these the actual people who "evolved" from early primates, homo erectus et al?

That's one hypothesis: that evolutionists have mistaken sons of Adam for the 'men' who lived at the same time as us but actually emerged from primates, such as Neanderthals, and Flores Man?
(BTW, that hypothesis is simply conjecture too, as was my mention of sitting with brothers discussing that issue between actual studies).

No people WITNESSED our creation. Period.

Its the disbelievers who want to elevate conjecture and doubt as superior to belief.
We Muslims cannot accept conjecture into our Aqidah.

[squicscor]

It's certainly possible there were already hominid species here and when Adam and Eve began our species they wiped out the other hominids (who were like animals, lacking civilization or the mental capacity of Adam/Eve).

Why should a Muslim say such conjectural things?

Worried? Hardly.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=109235951

On evolution:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post460858681
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post411245471
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post259571351

Akhi can you gave a summary of those discussions - whatever you can manage at your convenience.

[dodsCooggipsedebt]

Why should a Muslim say such conjectural things?

Akhi can you gave a summary of those discussions - whatever you can manage at your convenience.

I just skimmed through it and didn't follow up the links provided by brother SK. Here's the summary as written by one of the forumers there;

* SK makes opening statements/arguments
* Ruhanv making allegations and analysing a verse from the Quran to prove how it failed grammatically and logically
* SK shows how Ruhanv in fact doesn't know anything about Arabic grammar/linguistics and provides with substantiated claims how perfectly grammatical it actually is
* SK then provides evidence along with explanations and proofs in response to Ruhanv's claims
* Ruhanv responds by refusing to look at any of the pieces of evidence that SK links
* Ruhanv then also continues again with making allegations and accusations with his own subjective opinions on what he thinks about the Quran and Islam
* SK again elaborates more on the details with copying/pasting exact quotes from these links to prove his points
* SK goes on a rampage and continues to provide more and more compelling evidence
* Ruhanv is nowhere to be seen

Automatic forfeit done by Ruhanv and the crown goes to SK.

Basically the responses from other atheist forumers were that they tried to support Ruhanv but neglecting the evidence put forward by SK, which is of course a mistake since everyone can go back to what was posted and demand a proof (or lack of).

Allah Knows Best.

[squicscor]

I just skimmed through it and didn't follow up the links provided by brother SK. Here's the summary as written by one of the forumers there;

* SK makes opening statements/arguments
* Ruhanv making allegations and analysing a verse from the Quran to prove how it failed grammatically and logically
* SK shows how Ruhanv in fact doesn't know anything about Arabic grammar/linguistics and provides with substantiated claims how perfectly grammatical it actually is
* SK then provides evidence along with explanations and proofs in response to Ruhanv's claims
* Ruhanv responds by refusing to look at any of the pieces of evidence that SK links
* Ruhanv then also continues again with making allegations and accusations with his own subjective opinions on what he thinks about the Quran and Islam
* SK again elaborates more on the details with copying/pasting exact quotes from these links to prove his points
* SK goes on a rampage and continues to provide more and more compelling evidence
* Ruhanv is nowhere to be seen

Automatic forfeit done by Ruhanv and the crown goes to SK.

Basically the responses from other atheist forumers were that they tried to support Ruhanv but neglecting the evidence put forward by SK, which is of course a mistake since everyone can go back to what was posted and demand a proof (or lack of).

Allah Knows Best.

It was of great help. Love it.
Wassalam

[shiciapsisy]

Compared with evidence of God? I'd say you should be worried.

-Jason

Hey Jason mischief


I am fascinated by your motivations to spend so much time arguing with Muslims

are you insecure in your views and are just trying to find justifications not to be a believer

(i.e. you think if you can argue well with Muslims you can suppress your own belief in God)?

or are you paid by the hour for your time on Sunniforum or something else?


PS. don't go I would miss your comments, you are a great devils advocate for people to disabuse

[beenBinybelia]

Brother, you do not have definitive, clear information on either evolution or the science which claims Neanderthals crossed mated with modern humans.

Here's a quote from evolutionary scientists addressing a recent genome study of Neanderthal bones from Croatia:



One of the observations made by scientists is that media reporters routinely misrepresent and distort scientific findings to cater to reporters' worldviews and prejudices. The gap between actual scientific findings and media reports are quite enormous and very often the certainty which the media "reports" is not expressed or justifiable from the actual science.

Before you start doubting your iman, why don't you read the actual scientific reports? Why don't you read actual scientific findings about evolution. I studied biology in college and much about evolution is NOT contradictary to Islam. Microevolution, such as species adaptation, is compatible with Islam.

The major issue of contention is the origin of Man. Evolutionary claims of the origin of man simply lack the certainty to contest the authenticity of the Quran's statements that we are all children of Adam and Adam had no parents. And neither do we clearly understand how Adam was created by Allah from earth or how humanity interbred. The certainty of the Quran remains uncompromised and unchallenged. Neither are scientific reports about Man's origins sufficiently definitive to mount a challenge.

Ironically, I've sat among very learned brothers (PhDs in chemistry, MDs, engineers, ulama) who casually pondered how the first generations of Man mated, and whether they mated with nonhumans who lived at that time of the first generations. In terms of possibilities, its possible for the first sons of Adam to have had a Shariah completely unimagined or understood by us, including mating with Neanderthals.

Are doubts about the Shariah of the first children of Adam really grounds for doubting Allah's existance, the authenticity of the Quran as established by the arabic, and the prophethood of the Rasul (saaw)?

They are not. Rather, doubts which emerge from evolution are based on ignorance about evolution and the Aqidah of Islam as well as falsehoods propagated about both.

aoa,
wow. superbly explained

[beenBinybelia]

Masha allah, the guy SK is very knowledgeable and dealt well with the other guy. it must have been hard to read the same meaningless garbage over and over again and keep replying with such quality. Atheists dont know it but many of them just falsely believe in something; unfortunately that thing is themselves, and that is why i see them as arrogant.

aoa,
my sentiments exactly

[Michmant]

Why should a Muslim say such conjectural things?

Because a Muslim can find remains of these people, date them, and wonder how to explain them. It's not the nature of humans to have something in their possession which they do not understand and continue to ignore it without any speculation whatsoever.

If we were talking about theoretical species, you might have a point. But these were real. Some speculation is required. And the safest is to merely point out the obvious possibilities (in cases where the number of possibilities are limited) and acknowledge we can have no certainty on the matter.

[Thigmaswams]

are you insecure in your views and are just trying to find justifications not to be a believer

I am constantly trying to learn; I believe in using reason and intellect to understand the world around me. Moreover, I was very close to becoming a Muslim. Two things deterred me from it: (1) the death penalty for apostacy and (2) the irrationalities - to me anyway - in hadith (I've only read the Quran and half of Bukhari). I took a week "vacation" and thought about Islam and my life and purpose, and ultimately - for now anyway - decided to remain non-Muslim.

I wish I was paid by the hour for being on Sunniforum. That said, I read most of the threads here (some of the topic just don't make any sense to me because I simply don't have the background knowledge to understand) and still think with an open mind.

Regards,

-Jason

[Michmant]

I am constantly trying to learn; I believe in using reason and intellect to understand the world around me. Moreover, I was very close to becoming a Muslim. Two things deterred me from it: (1) the death penalty for apostacy and (2) the irrationalities - to me anyway - in hadith (I've only read the Quran and half of Bukhari). I took a week "vacation" and thought about Islam and my life and purpose, and ultimately - for now anyway - decided to remain non-Muslim.

I wish I was paid by the hour for being on Sunniforum. That said, I read most of the threads here (some of the topic just don't make any sense to me because I simply don't have the background knowledge to understand) and still think with an open mind.

Regards,

-Jason

Reading half of a literal translation of Bukhari without learning anything about how to study hadith (using your reason/intellect) probably removes things from your understanding rather than bring new things into your understanding.

If you give Islam another shot, apply reason/intellect to it too (such as realizing understanding a 1300 year old tradition will take a bit of time). I would recommend reading the Ma'ariful Qur'an commentary which is one of the best English-language books on the subject. The hadith literature in English is scanty but there are translations being done. Learning Arabic would probably make things much quicker (so you don't have to wait for translations).

[SHpuntik]

what do the quran/hadith say about the dinosaurs?

What was their purpose and how did they become extinct?

[Rounteetepehryn]

what do the quran/hadith say about the dinosaurs?

What was their purpose and how did they become extinct?

Their purpose, along with all other prehistoric life, was to live, die, and then become fossil fuel for us to use

[Thigmaswams]

Reading half of a literal translation of Bukhari without learning anything about how to study hadith (using your reason/intellect) probably removes things from your understanding rather than bring new things into your understanding.

If you give Islam another shot, apply reason/intellect to it too (such as realizing understanding a 1300 year old tradition will take a bit of time). I would recommend reading the Ma'ariful Qur'an commentary which is one of the best English-language books on the subject. The hadith literature in English is scanty but there are translations being done. Learning Arabic would probably make things much quicker (so you don't have to wait for translations).

Is Maariful Quran available online in English? Clearly, learning Arabic is out of the question for me; that's like asking you to learn Hebrew and Greek just so you can read the Bible.

[SHpuntik]

Their purpose, along with all other prehistoric life, was to live, die, and then become fossil fuel for us to use

Clever,

and where is the daleel to this that you state. (i.e. Quran/hadith).

[chuecaloversvv]

I am constantly trying to learn; I believe in using reason and intellect to understand the world around me. Moreover, I was very close to becoming a Muslim. Two things deterred me from it: (1) the death penalty for apostacy and (2) the irrationalities - to me anyway - in hadith (I've only read the Quran and half of Bukhari). I took a week "vacation" and thought about Islam and my life and purpose, and ultimately - for now anyway - decided to remain non-Muslim.

I wish I was paid by the hour for being on Sunniforum. That said, I read most of the threads here (some of the topic just don't make any sense to me because I simply don't have the background knowledge to understand) and still think with an open mind.

Regards,

-Jason

What have you got against the death penalty? Murderers and rapists deserve to die. Perhaps you weren't able to let go of your humanistic view on morality.

The death penalty was one of the things that attracted me to islam. Muslims, at least most of them, have not changed their religion to suit the liberal humanist 'morality', they only obey God's laws. Something doesn't become wrong just because it hurts people, it is only wrong if it goes against allah's commands. This is the difference between a humanistic morality and a theocentric morality, this objective necessity, based on something that transcends Man, whereas the former amounts to little more than a tautology, 'hurting people is wrong because hurting people is wrong' is not a reason not to hurt people.

[chuecaloversvv]

Reading half of a literal translation of Bukhari without learning anything about how to study hadith (using your reason/intellect) probably removes things from your understanding rather than bring new things into your understanding.

If you give Islam another shot, apply reason/intellect to it too (such as realizing understanding a 1300 year old tradition will take a bit of time). I would recommend reading the Ma'ariful Qur'an commentary which is one of the best English-language books on the subject. The hadith literature in English is scanty but there are translations being done. Learning Arabic would probably make things much quicker (so you don't have to wait for translations).

Reading the Qur'an is a bad idea; it's too dense for some one who knows nothing about islam. He should read something like Muhammad: His life from the earliest sources, by martin lings, or Islam and destiny of man.

[Michmant]

Is Maariful Quran available online in English? Clearly, learning Arabic is out of the question for me; that's like asking you to learn Hebrew and Greek just so you can read the Bible.

uber_mensch is right, you need some historical background before you can read Ma'ariful Qur'an because it is chock full of historical commentary and context. Reading Martin Lings' biography of the prophet would serve as an adequate introduction. And yes, Ma'ariful Qur'an is available for free online in English in various formats. I have the PDFs. It is 8 volumes (so reading Lings' biography would be quicker to get out of the way before you tackle the MQ itself).

[shiciapsisy]

Clever,

and where is the daleel to this that you state. (i.e. Quran/hadith).

the book of signs that is the universe