[TyncTyncSah]

Almost like 'wahhabis' eh, classing everything as bidah

Where did anyone class everything as bid'ah.

Or is just that everything your sect does is bid'ah, so to you it seems as though they are classing everything is bid'ah when in reality its nothing but a call to the Sunnah.

[beenBinybelia]

Where did anyone class everything as bid'ah.

Or is just that everything your sect does is bid'ah, so to you it seems as though they are classing everything is bid'ah when in reality its nothing but a call to the Sunnah.

its quite bad that one should, for the sake of proving their point and for the sake of refuting the views of Muhammad Abdul Wahab and his followers, resort to distorting the Name of Allah "Al- Wahab".
i agree with everything you have said. this is exactly the argument ahlul bid'ah give (im not saying this brother kashmir_85 is one of them). mock people by saying 'so everything is bid'ah?'...the next step is 'is everything haram?'...oh and if you run out of arguments distort the Name of Allah (SWT) to mock Sh. Abdul Wahab so people look upon you as a beacon of Islamic moderation and regard the other party as extremists.

[Roamsaffots]

Where did anyone class everything as bid'ah.

Or is just that everything your sect does is bid'ah, so to you it seems as though they are classing everything is bid'ah when in reality its nothing but a call to the Sunnah.

And what sect would that be

[TyncTyncSah]

And what sect would that be

Your posts show the symptoms of Barelvi'ism

[TyncTyncSah]

Going back to the topic of this thread.

Why dont Deobandis make bara' from those who propogate istighatha? The thing that made Deoband great was not their call for unity on the basis of obligating taqleed shakhsi, but it was their staunchness against shirk and bid'ah. Why the change in direction?

.

[Intory]

When I hear this whole issue of asking the dead for help like asking them to make du'a for you, I get reminded of the mushriks of makkah who used the idols as intercessors instead of going to Allah directly. They would say, we only use these idols as intercessors between us and Allah because we are too inpure, and the idols are more closer to Allah. Something along these lines they would say.

this is completely correct, and this is the theme of shaikh muhammad ibn abdul wahhabs book qawaid al arba'ah (4 principles). I really recommend every to read the shaikhs work as he covers all of these topics related to tawheed in worship.

Brother hussain, alhamdulillah the deobandi scholars dont permit shirk akbar, hence why even the salafi scholars say you can pray behind a deobandi but not a barelwi.

Im planning to post up some articles from the official deobandi website. What is apparent from the site os that the deobandis are reaching out to the salafis while rejecting the barelwis and i hope inshallah this effort will be reciprocated. I intend to post more on this inshallah

[Intory]

Walaykum Salaam



I dont understand how you came to that conclusion.
Mufti Taqi Usmani clearly mentions "the purpose of the mutawassil (the one performing tawassul) is that the Real Giver is Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He)" , and then the Shaykh still goes on to call it shirk by 'ijma as the objective of the dua is creation rather then the Creator.



Possibily... the writter could have a different understanding of the terminology but by the well known apparent meaning of those words it does imply shirk. So either way to me it seems that fatwa is promoting shirk even if the author didnt intend it that way.


That seems contradictory to other fatawa on the AskImam site where they say its shirk outright.






You're mixing up legimate tawassul and istigatha (which is shirk).
Read that article of Mufti Taqi Usmani that I posted.



ditto



[QUOTE-Ahmad-Shakeel] Istighathah: Seeking aid from other than Allah
http://www.deoband.org/2010/09/aqida...er-than-allah/

Istighathah
http://www.deoband.org/2009/02/aqida...efs/istigatha/

JazakAllah Khair


I dont understand why these promoters of shirk are constantly "bigged up" by the Deobandis? If a Shia or Barelvi would say stuff like this no one would hesitate to call it shirk. But when someone of Deobandi-background (or an Arab Sufi) says it then they are still promoted as 'Sunni'. Why the double standards?[/QUOTE]

i agree this is the one main issue with deobandis at the moment but allah knows best, i often wonder if the deobandi scholars dont want to outright condemn it now out of hikma because they want to get people far away from the aqeedah of certain individuals before attacking major propagators of shirk who seem to be treated as heroes.

Either way, defending the propagators of shirk isnt on the same level as propagating and induldging in shirk and inshallah if we all do our bit and work with brothers to remove any attachment to this shirk maybe one day it will be completely abandoned and left to the barelwis and hardcore 'sufis' (i really want another word for them so i can differentiate between deo sufis and barelwis, haqqanis etc)

anyways, from many of the articles i read on the deo official site its quite clear to me they are far closer to salafis alhamdulilah. I do believe the dar ul ulooms should adopt muhammad ibn abdul wahhabs books though for tawheed of worship, his books are non nonsense tawheed, refuting all kinds of graveworship and such like and giving detailed evidences and other aspects of shirk including hidden shirk etc

[Intory]

Going back to the topic of this thread.

Why dont Deobandis make bara' from those who propogate istighatha? The thing that made Deoband great was not their call for unity on the basis of obligating taqleed shakhsi, but it was their staunchness against shirk and bid'ah. Why the change in direction?

i agree with this bro but i believe deoband is still staunch against shirk and against bid'ah (although i slightly disagree with them on the specifics of what bid'an entials) but i dont think they are making too many compromises bro. I never saw them justify graveworship etc, the only issue i have is the refusal to condemn rumi and other similar things, but again, husnal dhaan maybe its out of hikma or maybe they sincerely dont believe the extreme sufi interpretations of unity of religions etc are the real meanings of the poems.

Either way, mashallah its good that you think that way, if many others follow inshallah then salafis and deos will literally be almost the same and thats a great sign inshallah. Keep up ur hatred of shirk bi ithnillah, inshallah it will earn you a place in jannah, what could be more beloved to allah than a dester of the thing that allah detests most

keep up your efforts to question any links with shirk, i have personally heard both yasir qadhi and tawfiq choudry in the last month personally call for unity between deobandis and salafis in their courses with al maghrib and al kawthar and on the deobandi website are clear cut articles in support of tawheed and sunnah and in rejection of shirk and bid'ah and giving fairness and good will to salafis while taking a strong stance against barelwis. If we all partake in an effort to bring the two sides together while respecting the smaller differences, i believe good things can happen inshallah

[Intory]

I remember an incident happend in Bangladesh (sylhet) at the grave of Shah Jalal (RAH). The imam and the madrassah affiated with the site decided to take a stand by preventing some people from doing wierd stuff often associated with shirk. The City official step in with police and told the scholars and the imam to go back to their masjed. There were two distinct opposing group - A deobandi affilate (the imam and scholars teaching at the madrassah and the berlewi group).
The deoband affilate scholar do not recieve much support financialy and is opposed by both by Jamati Islami type laymen and berlewi. Kind of stuck between a hard places
Allahualam

exactly, husnal dhaan, i dont believe deoband has any affinity to shirk or mushrikeen, maybe out of hikma or difficult situations they are not taking the bull by the horns head on and are instead tackling things more delacately. Either way, you can all help by waging war on shirk and standing up for tawheed inshallah. As an example, had the deobandis at that shrine had more support from people, they might have succeeded in preventing serious ills taking place at a grave. This is why the call to tawheed is so important in the ummah right now and this is why i recommend shaikh muhammad ibn abdul wahhabs books which are all about this

you wont find anything in there on not following madhabs or leaving tassawuf, pls read and you'll see all he tries to do is prevent muslims from doing shirk by giving them detailed proofs

[Intory]

There are people who have called it shirk, but I dont see how it can be considered a tawheed vs. shirk issue. Many senior scholars have called it bid'ah or impermissable but I have yet to come across any senior scholar say it is shirk.

See this other thread:
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...ke-dua-for-you

Sh. ibn Uthaymeen and Sh. Bakr Abu Zayd considered it bid'ah.

And amongst the Deobandis there seem to be different views.

Mufti Taqi Usmani and Ml. Ashraf Ali Thanvi say it is not permissable to ask the dead for du'a.

Ml. Yusuf Ludhianvi and Ml. Rashid Ahmed Gangohi also say it is not permissable but the Prophets are an exception to this. So they state it is permissable to request the Prophets for du'a.

pls provide the link for shaikh ibn uthaymeens fatwa bro. As far as i know, asking dead for help is shirk, asking dead to make dua is shirk, asking the prophet is shirk, asking the prophet to make dua is shirk, the only disagreed upon thing, is if u go to the prophets grave and ask his intercession.

Firstly we should define shirk. Shirk means to give the right of allah to other than allah.

If u believe a person can bring you benefit e.g. A child etc, this is shirk as allah grants children, jannah, wealth etc.

If u believe a person can hear your dua anywhere in the world, u give him an attribute of allah as all hearing.

The scholars disagree whether going to the grave of the prophet and loudly saying o muhammad make dua that allah grants me such and such is shirk or bid'ah. The ones who say its bid'ah also consider it shirk al asghar (minor shirk) and the reason they say its not major shirk is because u havent given a right of allah to other than allah but uve innovated by doing this way due to some believing the prophet is physically alive in his grave. So the only thing that we dont consider clear cut shirk akbar is the last one.

You will learn all about these things in shaikh muhammad ibn abdul wahhabs books, very important to understand tawheed and shirk, its your jannah and naar

[Intory]

Dawud,
Shirk is clear.
http://www.deoband.org/2010/09/aqida...and-its-types/

ur statement contradicts a clear hadeeth that states the prophet fears for us shirk like a black ant on a dark rock on a black night

if its so clear why do so many muslims do shirk? Even tho islams message is tawheed and rejection of shirk

[Intory]

Dawud,
Shirk is clear.
http://www.deoband.org/2010/09/aqida...and-its-types/

I think there is a clear disagreement between the Shaikh Abdul Wahabs view and the other scholar view. It seems you hold Shaikh Abdul Wahabs view to be 100% correct. Both sets of scholar scholasitc reasononing for their view and as such this should be expected. If you prefer the former view it is fine but to label others of commiting shirk when you are not even a scholar is insulting and one can feel sense takiri tendency.
I am not the type to lable people and is not bold enough to accuse other of being guilty. Hence although I agree with many of shaikh's view but am not fully supportive of it. What I find amazing many of such books were written as a reaction to something. This seems to escape the mind of modern readers. If I see madhabist tendency that is verging on secterianism, scholar though follow a madhab will take opposition to this secterian view and will write article. Now someone reading this book after many years later will assume these scholar are anti madhab. This has happend in the past
Allahualam

firstly, i read the article and didnt see anything in there contradicting shaikh muhammad ibn abdul wahhabs works, in fact i believe this article was based on his works and allah knows best.

Secondly, if you want to call people away from shirk you need detailed evidences and his books has all the evidences you need to call muslims away from shirk, thats why its important for us to study, so we can stay away from shirk and call others away from it. Did you know that saying 'i swear on my mums life' is shirk and also crossing your fingers for good luck is shirk? Many other british supersticions like not walking under ladders is shirk. in pakistan you have fortune tellers, this is shirk. If you ever read your star sign, if u didnt believe in it, your salaah is rejected for 40 days and if you did believe in it your a kafir. Its a serious issue.

This has nothing to do with different oppinions. Going to graves to ask the inhabbitant for aid is shirk and unnacceptable and the worst kind of sin that renders your islam invalid, so its a serious thing what many muslims are doing and i never called anyone here a kafir or mushrik so please explain what you meant.

Also, you keep saying what you agree and dont agree with from the shaikh, have you ever read any of his books? When commenting on him, please provide the statements of his that your referring to. Jazak allahu khair

[Intory]

[QUOTE=Nomadic;639898]

ur statement contradicts a clear hadeeth that states the prophet fears for us shirk like a black ant on a dark rock on a black night

So you are commenting on the hadith with a particular view in mind. I am not a muhadith and so can't comment. People may understand this hadith differently or draw slightly different conclusion. Worshiping self is also a form of shirk. thought one will not be aware of self worship i.e holding one's view to be infalible even in matters of relegion. The khawarij of the past did that and was very catious of shirk and took this type of unyeilding approach.

the hadeeth is clear cut, please bring another interpretation if you are truthful.

This is the problem, anything you dont like you explain away. You have been belittling the importance of tawheed, i give u a hadeeth and u just say 'oh im not a muhaddith'. Why dont u look at the hadeeth and decide for urself?

Also where is your evidence that the khawarij were cautious of shirk. I think you confused them for the prophets and sahaba. They were the ones who were ultra cautious of shirk. The khawarij even indulged in innovations

[BaselBimbooooo]

[QUOTE=Dawud Beale;639904]

the hadeeth is clear cut, please bring another interpretation if you are truthful.

This is the problem, anything you dont like you explain away. You have been belittling the importance of tawheed, i give u a hadeeth and u just say 'oh im not a muhaddith'. Why dont u look at the hadeeth and decide for urself?

Also where is your evidence that the khawarij were cautious of shirk. I think you confused them for the prophets and sahaba. They were the ones who were ultra cautious of shirk. The khawarij even indulged in innovations

al-Salamu Aleykum,

In terms of tawheed al-Ulouhiyyah I Agree with Imam Muhammad ibn 'Abdul-Wahhab (rah), Not because I read his books because I never read them but because I deal with his students "Often referred to as Wahhabies" and from what I see they follow the Quran word for word in matters of Tawheed, pure monotheism.

[Intory]

This was written by Shah Wali Allah (RAH). Do you know the time frame.

This is getting bit ridiculous. You seem to fixed in your appraoch. Have I ever said go to the grave and ask for assistance is permissible. The scholar differ in matters of dua. None is doing dua to the person of the grave!
What is this about fortunteller. Are you trying to conjure up something that i said it is ok! I don't think there is any serious schoalr from east to west say this ok.
As for explainging away. I never did anything of such. As a jahil I am not going to do commentry but simply try to elude that it can be read differently. Where as your stance is this way or no way! So From your stance one would assume you have read all the commentry of muhadith. No offense you seem to think there was no other scholar but Shaikh Abdul Wahab! I try to stay away from such unyilding stance.

ok brother, calm down a minute. I think we are misunderstanding each other. Lets try to understand each other properly inshallah.

What do u think is a difference of oppinion related to dua?

I meant that these are acts of shirk that muslims are doing so we must learn tawheed more than we learn how to do salaah.

Brother Tripoli cud u post up links to the hadeeth i mentioned plus thalathatul usool, qawaid al arba'ah, and kitab at tawheed?

[Intory]

nomadic, do accept that asking the pious people in the graves to make dua for you is not the position of the deobandi scholars? Do u believe they are wrong to condemn this practice?

[beenBinybelia]

pls provide the link for shaikh ibn uthaymeens fatwa bro. As far as i know, asking dead for help is shirk, asking dead to make dua is shirk, asking the prophet is shirk, asking the prophet to make dua is shirk, the only disagreed upon thing, is if u go to the prophets grave and ask his intercession.

Firstly we should define shirk. Shirk means to give the right of allah to other than allah.

If u believe a person can bring you benefit e.g. A child etc, this is shirk as allah grants children, jannah, wealth etc.

If u believe a person can hear your dua anywhere in the world, u give him an attribute of allah as all hearing.

The scholars disagree whether going to the grave of the prophet and loudly saying o muhammad make dua that allah grants me such and such is shirk or bid'ah. The ones who say its bid'ah also consider it shirk al asghar (minor shirk) and the reason they say its not major shirk is because u havent given a right of allah to other than allah but uve innovated by doing this way due to some believing the prophet is physically alive in his grave. So the only thing that we dont consider clear cut shirk akbar is the last one.

You will learn all about these things in shaikh muhammad ibn abdul wahhabs books, very important to understand tawheed and shirk, its your jannah and naar

brother this is shirk too. u dont ask. the. Prophet.anything...
the only dua for intercession is after azaan...when you ask Allah to allow ,on Day of Judgement, Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) to seek intercession for you
i hope u know which dua im talking about

[beenBinybelia]

Bismillah
I have no problem going to the grave of the pious and doing dua in the vecenity because like any blessed place, dua likly to get answered.
I have no problem using wasila
I do not agree with the idea creation can help by asking the resident of grave to fulfill a task but i have no problem requesting the resident of the grave (pious) to do dua for us though I have never done this and prefer not to do it or even propogate it. In my jahil understanding since the pious servent of Allah are alive although we do not percieve it and so asking them for dua seems to make sense. This i don't consider it to be shirk/ biddah because our dua directed towards Allah SAW and not his servent.
I have no problem with people who do not do wasila or anything i said I do. It is my Jahil view that they have scholastic reasoning for theri stance.
I abhor doing sujud to grave or setting candle lights, doing tawaf.

Allahualam

have a look at what the polytheists used to say at the time of the Prophet (PBUH):
"They (the Arab pagans) said, “We do not call upon them and turn towards them except to seek nearness and intercession (with Allah).”
The proof of (the fact that they sought) nearness with Allah is, “Those who take awliya besides Him (say), 'We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allah.' Verily, Allah will judge
between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allah guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever.” [Soorah az-Zumar (39): 3]"

Dont wait till day of Judgement to find out whether what you were doing was shirk or not. because shirk is unforgivable and the punishment is too harrowing to even think about. no dua can be that important that you risk shirk for it.

[beenBinybelia]

Mashallah, by quoting the above mentioned narration, you assumed by this we worship.
Get this through your thick head of yours, Tawasul is permissible. Some permit it and some dont. Some only permit it when these indiviual are alive. This is matter of disagreement.

mind your language please. and by changing the definiton of shirk you cant escape from the fact whether something is shirk or not. the scholars wont be responsible for anyone on the Day of Judgement. you are yourself responsible. you can quote different opinions of scholars all day long but in the end it all comes down to you as you have to do or not to do a certain thing. better safe than sorry.

[Intory]

brother hussain, i advise you to study tawheed of worship (tawheed al uloohiyyah) from shaikh muhammad ibn abdul wahhabs books and then try to remove the shirk from the deobandi ranks inshallah. This will be a good effort on your part and beneficial inshallah if you feel strongly about why some deobandis seem to lean towards shirk. Everything ive seen from deobandi sources seems to imply they are against graveworship etc