[Suvaxal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKtmcNdmt7E

here is a link, now it's best to see various videos to get the full picture, so please browse using the sidebar.

it looks like the lights start flashing atleast about 10 seconds before the azan, so people are called to prayer first by the lights and then by the azaan.

As ridiculous as it looks, that is hardly bid'ah. Would it be bid'ah if people are alerted of the prayer time by shops closing? In Saudi, a lot of the shops close before the adhaan is called. When I was there last, I realized it was time for prayer because the shops were closing and the adhaan came about 2 minutes afterwards.

So, it does not matter even if it is something in "addition" the the adhaan - which it isn't. That is because there is reward associated with the adhaan - with calling out to the adhaan, with responding to the adhaan, and so forth. There is no reward associated with the lights flashing as they do.

Again, this is a complete non-issue. There are many wrongs with the Saudi government as far as Islam is concerned (e.g. interest-based banking, cooperating with the West against Muslims) but this isn't one of them.

[Liaiskelile]

"brother, do you put up christmas lights during mawleed? Serious question"

no, wrong box brother.

"Because im pretty sure if otehr groups did this adhaan clock thing you would be praising it,"

No, i'm known for the line, "no wonder the wahabis call you kafir"

"Please bare in mind this is a forum full of people who are opposed to ghayr taqleed so you cant expect them to base their oppinion on a random unknown fatwa/"oppinion"."

I think it's good to bring discussions like this to the wider community of muslims, if you've said all you can then let other people have their say also. Are they 2nd class citizens that they are not allowed a say?

"Why not contact an alim for a fatwa on this and whether its worth posting up your objections and what the hukm is etc and then post the response up here inshAllah. You yourself agree its not even haraam so surely there are more important issues to raise"

I'm onto that, but you need to remember this clock tower is still new and so I need more knowledge about the tower and the whole situation, thus this thread. like only a few minutes ago I learnt the lights start flashing 10 seconds before the adhan.

I can criticise them this early on here because this is only a forum, but I can't do the same in front of an Alim, without full information can I?

Any comments would only add to my knowledge and to the commentators knowledge.

[ulnanVti]

"brother, do you put up christmas lights during mawleed? Serious question"

no, wrong box brother.

"Because im pretty sure if otehr groups did this adhaan clock thing you would be praising it,"

No, i'm known for the line, "no wonder the wahabis call you kafir"

"Please bare in mind this is a forum full of people who are opposed to ghayr taqleed so you cant expect them to base their oppinion on a random unknown fatwa/"oppinion"."

I think it's good to bring discussions like this to the wider community of muslims, if you've said all you can then let other people have their say also. Are they 2nd class citizens that they are not allowed a say?

"Why not contact an alim for a fatwa on this and whether its worth posting up your objections and what the hukm is etc and then post the response up here inshAllah. You yourself agree its not even haraam so surely there are more important issues to raise"

I'm onto that, but you need to remember this clock tower is still new and so I need more knowledge about the tower and the whole situation, thus this thread. like only a few minutes ago I learnt the lights start flashing 10 seconds before the adhan.

I can criticise them this early on here because this is only a forum, but I can't do the same in front of an Alim, without full information can I?

Any comments would only add to my knowledge and to the commentators knowledge.

in that case, perhaps an enquiry would have been better than unleashing your tounge. Regardless of who they are, they are still our muslim brothers and have the rights of a muslim so you must be fair and not unleash your tongue on them and then check whether they did anything wrong. Dont think rulingin a country waives any rights islam gives a person. Some people in saudi deserve to be criticised like the guy mentioned earlier who owns media and was filmed telling a girl to take her abaya off. But there are a lot of good people in saudi also and you should also stop putting saudis and indeed salafis into boxes if you dont like me doing it to you. The country has a population of about 25million and the royal family is massive and has a range of differnt people with different mentalities. I advise you not to preceed the ulema in your actions and to seek their advice on these matters inshAllah. Others are free to give their oppinion on this inshAllah and most have viewed the oppinion so far that your criticism is stupid but guess we'll see what others have to say inshAllah

[CHEAPPoem]

this thread is a waste of time just like the one deleted. the OP seems hell bent in putting his energy into creating bughz for the salafis in the minds of the forum members and to go about his biased sectarian propaganda.this is not an academic discussion, it is pure propaganda.

im no fan of the salafis but this thread should be deleted as well to save the time of the forum members from this utter pointless discussion.

[Pete789]

this thread is a waste of time just like the one deleted. the OP seems hell bent in putting his energy into creating bughz for the salafis in the minds of the forum members and to go about his biased sectarian propaganda.this is not an academic discussion, it is pure propaganda.

im no fan of the salafis but this thread should be deleted as well to save the time of the forum members from this utter pointless discussion.

Agreed, I hope the mods delete this thread too.

[CHEAPPoem]

Agreed, I hope the mods delete this thread too.

how does one report threads?

[replrobin]

Bottom left hand corner of each post there is a report button.

how does one report threads?

[Liaiskelile]

sorry to say, in that case 90% of the threads on this forum of waste of time.......

...the other 10% are copy and paste of some other website/book including those of qur'an and hadith.

Ban the thread, ofcourse, typical, should the kufr in the UK ban your mosque or the way you dress, 'cos abviously they don't agree with islamic beliefs do they.

So tell me this why do you people don't like a "normal" muslim asking questions? On a level playing field people like you don't have a leg to stand on. Why are you telling me what to do, in your own thoughts shouldn't you leave that to the scholars?

[Soolfelpecelf]

I don't know if it's bid'ah or not, but I think it's gaudy and in poor taste, just like the clock tower and a lot of other design choices that have been made over there. I wonder who gets the final say on these plans and how the process works. In any case, designs can be changed. What I think is even worse than this is the wanton destruction of important historical sites. That's a real tragedy.

[Zzvukttz]

the mecca clock tower

AKA Big Ben on steroids

[exschke]

the clock tower is an eyesore. What a waste of money and effort.
On a side issue none is replacing the call to prayer. Perhaps our berlewi brother will also stop putting up decoration during mawalid events and organsing biriayni event as it is some sort of cumpalsory activity.
There is scholarly dissagreement with regards to Bidah Hasana!!

As for Saudia trying be a superpower is laughball.
they can't even drive, curropution is rampant and asking them to follow rules is like speaking a foregine language. Now I understnad why the wahabyte took control of saudia -it is the tendency not to follow any rule, assoicated with unsophisticated unclutured people. In Saudia, relegion is a tool to keep people in line. It is a form of coersion. There is a big gap between have and have not.

Allahualam

[Suvaxal]

sorry to say, in that case 90% of the threads on this forum of waste of time.......

...the other 10% are copy and paste of some other website/book including those of qur'an and hadith.

Ban the thread, ofcourse, typical, should the kufr in the UK ban your mosque or the way you dress, 'cos abviously they don't agree with islamic beliefs do they.

So tell me this why do you people don't like a "normal" muslim asking questions? On a level playing field people like you don't have a leg to stand on. Why are you telling me what to do, in your own thoughts shouldn't you leave that to the scholars?

The problem is that you're making the grave accusation of bid'ah. Also, you're making it seem as if all (or even most) Wahhabis agree with the lights. The thing is, many Saudis, including ulama, opposed the construction of the clock tower. Many Saudi laymen opposed it, as well. But the Saudis are a monarchy and whatever the monarchy says goes, even if it is in poor taste, a bid'ah, or even haraam (e.g. interest).

Despite all this, the level of fitnah in Saudi Arabia is much lower than in most Muslim countries, let alone non-Muslim nations. Saudi Arabia is one of the best, if not the best country when it comes to living your life according to shari'ah. You'll mostly encounter evil in Saudi Arabia only when you go looking for it.

[IrrettelatWet]

Alhamdullah it is nice to see that people are defending our Salafi brothers instead of JUST attacking them 24-7.

[Liaiskelile]

First of all it's a question i.e. is this bida. thus the question mark. Check the thread.

With all due respect, mecca is a religious city i.e. muslim. Without the support of RELIGIOUS LEADERS of Saudi Arabia can the royal family really do anything, the mufti's/ulema can just call boycott and refuse to lead prayers, catch a plane out of the country and saying they're not going to be part of this, hunger strike, how will the masjids function then? but these ulema dont do any of this, meaning what?

Some people are trying to differentiate between saudi royal family and the wahabi ulema. They are not separate but basically a DEPARTMENT under the government. That is their position. Without this hierarchy they can't/don't exist. So when/IF they disagree it's like a government minister disagreeing in the west, if the minister knew no one was listening to him/her, they would walk out.

it is a new way to call people to prayer, although people say it's not "bida in that way". Alot of people (scholars) when asked about many "cultural" issues answer generally with, it's haram to imitate the kufar, then what is this. A cross between big ben and the empire state building.

Plus it TOWERS above the meccan city, making it the focal point rather than the kabba. How many people around the world go as tourists to places like New York to see the empire state building, people go to Paris to see the eiffel tower, leaning tower of pisa in italy etc.. How long before people start saying let's go to mecca to see the abraj al bait and we can do hajj/umra while we're there.

In my opinion this building would have been better suited to less holy cities like riyadh or jeddah.

[Suvaxal]

First of all it's a question i.e. is this bida. thus the question mark. Check the thread.

With all due respect, mecca is a religious city i.e. muslim. Without the support of RELIGIOUS LEADERS of Saudi Arabia can the royal family really do anything, the mufti's/ulema can just call boycott and refuse to lead prayers, catch a plane out of the country and saying they're not going to be part of this, hunger strike, how will the masjids function then? but these ulema dont do any of this, meaning what?

Some people are trying to differentiate between saudi royal family and the wahabi ulema. They are not separate but basically a DEPARTMENT under the government. That is their position. Without this hierarchy they can't/don't exist. So when/IF they disagree it's like a government minister disagreeing in the west, if the minister knew no one was listening to him/her, they would walk out.

it is a new way to call people to prayer, although people say it's not "bida in that way". Alot of people (scholars) when asked about many "cultural" issues answer generally with, it's haram to imitate the kufar, then what is this. A cross between big ben and the empire state building.

Plus it TOWERS above the meccan city, making it the focal point rather than the kabba. How many people around the world go as tourists to places like New York to see the empire state building, people go to Paris to see the eiffel tower, leaning tower of pisa in italy etc.. How long before people start saying let's go to mecca to see the abraj al bait and we can do hajj/umra while we're there.

In my opinion this building would have been better suited to less holy cities like riyadh or jeddah.

You have an overly simplistic idea of how Saudi Arabia functions.

First of all, there is the obligation to follow the orders of the leader of a country. The ulama are not forced to do anything but is there any hikmah in what you suggest - "just call boycott and refuse to lead prayers, catch a plane out of the country and saying they're not going to be part of this, hunger strike". This is not how it works. Is it better that all good ulama leave the country so only those who are in it for the money become leaders in the community and lead the laymen astray? many laymen in Saudi Arabia are religiously minded and do not like a lot of the things that the monarchy is doing, but the solution isn't to run away. Change takes time.

And no, you have no idea what you're talking about if you think that the ulama of Saudi Arabia are supposedly a department under the government. An example I can give you is that of the prominent scholars of Saudi Arabia, some of whom have passed away: these scholars gave a fatwa against paintings and photography. Yet, in Saudi Arabia, you see giant portraits of kings and princes. So the monarchy tends to do what it feels like. And it is an absolute monarchy so it is NOTHING like the West where a minister can just walk out in protest. If anyone were to do that in Saudi, they lose their post and a replacement that agrees with the policies is put up for the job. So, many ulama are not vocal on such minute issues like the tower because if they were to leave, their replacements would be corrupt and in it for the money.

Of course a lot of people, myself included, have issue with the tower and see it as something negative, rather than positive. But it isn't a bid'ah. In fact, this issue about the tower has been discussed time and time again on this forum since it became known to the public - and the majority of people were against it on this forum and many Saudis are also against it - but no one called it a bid'ah. It would fall under israaf and wasteful spending, though, but then so would a lot of other things, such as the umbrellas in masjid an-Nabawi .

[DumbNelmcrece]

If you want to see what kind of scholars Aal Sa'ud wants, look at Abdul-Muhsin al-'Ubaykaan, or 'Mufti al-Amrikan,' as I have heard he is referred to.

When the government wanted to expand the area between Safa and Marwa to alleviate crowding, they sent a question to the Lajnah ad-Da'ima to see if this would be okay. The Lajnah ad-Da'ima replied unanimously, no, it is not okay, and if you do this then you will be making the hajj of a lot of people baatil. So the government went to some Egyptian Muftis, got the fatwa, and one of the shuyookh on the Lajnah wrote an article criticizing the government, saying 'If you wanted to set us up for these issues, why are you doing this now? We told you you can build levels, and that's fine, but you can't do this or you'll destroy a lot of peoples' Hajj.'

In waltzes Abdul-Muhsin al-'Ubaykaan: "Why are you contradicting Wali ul-amr," et cetera, writes a whole article attacking the shuyookh for causing fitnah by criticizing the decision...

[Soolfelpecelf]

If you want to see what kind of scholars Aal Sa'ud wants, look at Abdul-Muhsin al-'Ubaykaan, or 'Mufti al-Amrikan,' as I have heard he is referred to.

When the government wanted to expand the area between Safa and Marwa to alleviate crowding, they sent a question to the Lajnah ad-Da'ima to see if this would be okay. The Lajnah ad-Da'ima replied unanimously, no, it is not okay, and if you do this then you will be making the hajj of a lot of people baatil. So the government went to some Egyptian Muftis, got the fatwa, and one of the shuyookh on the Lajnah wrote an article criticizing the government, saying 'If you wanted to set us up for these issues, why are you doing this now? We told you you can build levels, and that's fine, but you can't do this or you'll destroy a lot of peoples' Hajj.'

In waltzes Abdul-Muhsin al-'Ubaykaan: "Why are you contradicting Wali ul-amr," et cetera, writes a whole article attacking the shuyookh for causing fitnah by criticizing the decision...

So what happened after that? The expansion was carried out?

[DumbNelmcrece]

So what happened after that? The expansion was carried out?

Well yeah, of course it was, this is the Saudi government we're talking about. The expansion was carried out, and as if to placate the shuyookh, they also built levels, which in all honesty makes no sense. Just build, oh, I don't know, more levels? They have enough money to build these giant stupid clock-towers, they can build more levels...

It's probably ruined a lot of people's hajj. The government will certainly have that to answer for on Qiyamah.

[Soolfelpecelf]

Well yeah, of course it was, this is the Saudi government we're talking about. The expansion was carried out, and as if to placate the shuyookh, they also built levels, which in all honesty makes no sense. Just build, oh, I don't know, more levels? They have enough money to build these giant stupid clock-towers, they can build more levels...

It's probably ruined a lot of people's hajj. The government will certainly have that to answer for on Qiyamah.

Why can't they just limit the number of visas they give out each year?

[shiciapsisy]

Assalamu alaykum


the clock tower is an eyesore. What a waste of money and effort. If you see through Syeduna Abu Dhar Giffaari radiallahu anhu's eyes there are thousands of eyesores in around harmain. But an ordinay muslims when he visits haramain should also feel proud of himself. The haram also belongs to ordinary muslims. When marble and decorated stones were put on walls and pillars of haramain sharifain, the then likes of us would have objected to that. But they are no more an eyesore. They are pleasant to our eyes.

So let us appreciate the efforts of saudis on spending on haramain.

Let me tell you the inside story. The local young Havard business and managament graduates (MBAs) have called the haramain as a hurdle in saudi's development.