[Liaiskelile]

All I want to ask is that the salafis/wahabis seem to oppose more or less everyone else and say that every bida leads to hellfire, I myself believe in bida husna.

So the mecca clock tower which towers above the kabba also assists to spread the call of the muezine to a wider area but aswell as that the 21,000 LED lights, turn on and "flash" each time it is the call to prayer, i.e. five times a day.

So is this not a new way to call people to prayer? is there any sharia basis to this?

i posted a similar thread last night, it's not here anymore, am I able to know why that was deleted?

[shiciapsisy]

Assalamu alaykum

I think the lights are linked to salah timings, whenever salah times starts, like an alarm in our salah clocks (like al-fajr, al-asr clocks). This is just a technical innovation. Nothing related to deen. The problem will arise when this alarm is replaced for azaan.

Our ikhtelaaf with the gair muqallids also should be dealt with akhlaaq.

[Liaiskelile]

light travels faster and further than sound...brothers consider that..at a certain distance people would still see the light but no sound...also being a regular occurance it's not like a regular alarm set by an individual for themselves, it is azan to call people to prayer not to let them know it's prayer time.... think about it.

...I'm being quite brief here because my last post was deleted somehow and I don't want to waste my energy again on this forum.

[shiciapsisy]

I repeat, this flashing lights are not a replacement for azaan so there is no issue. These lights are linked to "salah clock".

There can be ijtehaadi or eteqaadi differences with the saudi kingdom. But the facilities they give to the hajees is commendable.

[Liaiskelile]

don't worry there will be someone around to pass on your appreciation and thank you to the ibn saud family.

[shiciapsisy]

That is the islamic culture. Appreciate what should be appreciated. Express whatever is wrong. I have the knowledge of what is going in wrong in haramain. But one should remember the advice of Aaqaa Rasulullah SAS.

[ThekvandoVideo]

Suad Royal family

[Liaiskelile]

Abraj al bait development doesn't look like islamic culture to me. I will also try to build love for the american controlled ibn saud family if you find a qur'anic ayah or hadith for me.

or else give me some of what you are smoking.

[ulnanVti]

the hukm of Light on a clock for adhaan would take the same hukm as a microphone or loud speaker. Its not a a ritual in and of itself, its a worldly means of aiding a legislated ritual.

"Wahhabis" are opposed to innovating new rituals into the religion only. They are opposed to practicing any religious ritual which was not practiced by the prophet SAW and the first three generations of muslims. They hold that we are not in need of any new rituals and that the practices of our salaf is sufficient and that non of us even practice all of what they did so why start coming up with our own new rituals (hence why they refer to themselves as salafis, as they prefer the practices of the salaf to the practices of muslims who came after the salaf and the salaf are their major reference point on how islam should be practiced and understood)



wallahu a'lam

[ulnanVti]

the aim of the clock tower is to create a makka time. The saudi's are trying to build up with other sunni allies into a superpower, slowly at stregthen themselves to the point where theya re too powerful to be invaded (like russia or india or china, countries that are so powerful they can no longer be invaded by america). Having a Makka time with the aim of replacing grenwich meantime is just one of the many methods by which the muslim countries can start to assert themselves as a power and move towards their weak position against the powerful nations. Russians even used chess as a method of gaining political power (I used to be a chess fanatic and know all about fischer vs spasky and how one american man took on teh whole soviet chess machine).

If you disagree, fair enough. but my question to you, is it haraam to have a clock in makka and is it haraam, to have starbucks. Bare in mind the seriousness of making something haraam which allah has made halal and also the seriousness of eating your brothers flesh

"And they say: "What is in the bellies of such and such cattle (milk or foetus) is for our males alone, and forbidden to our females (girls and women), but if it is born dead, then all have shares therein." He will punish them for their attribution (of such false orders to Allâh). Verily, He is All*Wise, All*Knower. (Tafsir At*Tabarî, Vol. 8, Page 49). (Al-An'am 6:139)"

[ulnanVti]

And why should you not eat of that (meat) on which Allâh's Name has been pronounced (at the time of slaughtering the animal), while He has explained to you in detail what is forbidden to you, except under compulsion of necessity? And surely many do lead (mankind) astray by their own desires through lack of knowledge. Certainly your Lord knows best the transgressors. (Al-An'am 6:119)

[Liaiskelile]

the aim of the clock tower is to create a makka time. The saudi's are trying to build up with other sunni allies into a superpower, slowly at stregthen themselves to the point where theya re too powerful to be invaded (like russia or india or china, countries that are so powerful they can no longer be invaded by america). Having a Makka time with the aim of replacing grenwich meantime is just one of the many methods by which the muslim countries can start to assert themselves as a power and move towards their weak position against the powerful nations. Russians even used chess as a method of gaining political power (I used to be a chess fanatic and know all about fischer vs spasky and how one american man took on teh whole soviet chess machine).

If you disagree, fair enough. but my question to you, is it haraam to have a clock in makka and is it haraam, to have starbucks. Bare in mind the seriousness of making something haraam which allah has made halal and also the seriousness of eating your brothers flesh

"And they say: "What is in the bellies of such and such cattle (milk or foetus) is for our males alone, and forbidden to our females (girls and women), but if it is born dead, then all have shares therein." He will punish them for their attribution (of such false orders to Allâh). Verily, He is All*Wise, All*Knower. (Tafsir At*Tabarî, Vol. 8, Page 49). (Al-An'am 6:139)"

Am I meant to give a reply to this? ok!

"Other sunni allies", the al saud family isn't sunni.

Have you read the history of saudi arabia? and how the al saud family came to power? You should go and read it. Russia, China, India have NUCLEAR WEAPONS, thats why americans can't invade them, Saudi Arabia long ago signed up never to do this, The USA can turn around tomorrow and drop a nuke on mecca, what are the saudi's going to reply with? DING DONG?


Find out who owns starbucks etc... these are kufr symbols. Starbucks doesn't just sell coffee, it sells and promotes a lifestyle. Go do a course in branding, whats that symbol that they have as their logo....oh yes it's a siren from greek mythology i.e. polytheism. So my deduction is not to call it haram, but undesirable for muslims, and highly undesirable in a place like mecca.

The american forces that guarantee the security of Israel ARE THE SAME as those that guarantee the safety of the Saudi kingdom, think about that! (take the gulf wars as reference)

no one is saying the actual clock or tower is Haram. But the lights flashing IS AN ADDITION to the way how people are called to prayer. now this is different to loudspeakers as loudspeakers only increase the range of the caller's voice.

Light was also present during the time of the prophet in the form of flame torches, lamps etc.... loudspeakers were not, but there is no command to signal people to prayer using light. Now if you want to go suck upto the saudi regime you won't be alone, but is your religion to appease King Abdullah or Allah who he is a servant of.

[ulnanVti]

Am I meant to give a reply to this? ok!

"Other sunni allies", the al saud family isn't sunni.

Have you read the history of saudi arabia? and how the al saud family came to power? You should go and read it. Russia, China, India have NUCLEAR WEAPONS, thats why americans can't invade them, Saudi Arabia long ago signed up never to do this, The USA can turn around tomorrow and drop a nuke on mecca, what are the saudi's going to reply with? DING DONG?


Find out who owns starbucks etc... these are kufr symbols. Starbucks doesn't just sell coffee, it sells and promotes a lifestyle. Go do a course in branding, whats that symbol that they have as their logo....oh yes it's a siren from greek mythology i.e. polytheism. So my deduction is not to call it haram, but undesirable for muslims, and highly undesirable in a place like mecca.

The american forces that guarantee the security of Israel ARE THE SAME as those that guarantee the safety of the Saudi kingdom, think about that! (take the gulf wars as reference)

no one is saying the actual clock or tower is Haram. But the lights flashing IS AN ADDITION to the way how people are called to prayer. now this is different to loudspeakers as loudspeakers only increase the range of the caller's voice.

Light was also present during the time of the prophet in the form of flame torches, lamps etc.... loudspeakers were not, but there is no command to signal people to prayer using light. Now if you want to go suck upto the saudi regime you won't be alone, but is your religion to appease King Abdullah or Allah who he is a servant of.

mashAllah which scholars have preceded you in making tabdee of the entire saudi family? Or is all this calling for taqleed and folowing scholars just rhetoric? If you dont answer this question directly I will have nothing more to say to you after this post. You accuse us of not respecting scholars, so which scholar are you qoting from now? Same question regarding your "undesirable" hukm

If kufr symbols are haraam then this means nike is haraam too, are nike trainers haraam? I can pull out a million brands which have greem mythological symbols and you will also need to brand them haraam, but I know that you wont as your only interest is your fanatasism in attacking saudi arabia, which gets attacked so much you'd think its the worst muslim coutnry in the world, and get more criticism than the rest of the muslim countries combined

I expect a direct response to this

Also, if this clcok tower is merely makrooh, why make threads on this? Arent their clear shariah violations in virtually every muslim country? Why post about something which you accept is not even haraam. Its because of your fanatical hatred of saudi, thats why. I think its sour grapes because saudi is not controlled by brillo's

[Suvaxal]

I think I'm experiencing deja vu because I remember responding to an identical thread by this same OP. To the OP: why on earth are you making an issue out of something that is completely a non-issue? It is hardly a bid'ah that the clock lights up - even according to the Salafi understanding of bid'ah. Salafis don't believe advances in technology to be a bid'ah. If the lights were a replacement to the adhaan, then you'd have a point, but they aren't. If how you believe the Salafis understood bid'ah was the case, then the loudspeaker is also bid'ah. Driving cars is also a bid'ah. Even using carpets in a masjid is bid'ah! Your understanding of how Salafis understand bid'ah is really flawed.

And your saying that light was present at the time of Rasoolullah is irrelevant. The lights serve little purpose in this case and could hardly be called a replacement to the adhaan. They are used for decorative purposes. If the adhaan was replaced or if something that is used by non-Muslims was used (e.g. horn, bells, etc.), then there would be a problem.

Also, not everyone likes the clock tower - including Salafis. It is the Saudi monarchy that does a lot of these things that seem strange and sometimes even contravene shari'ah. For example, the King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST) is a co-ed institution - the first of its kind. Co-education is not permissible since it eliminates segregation but any 'alim that spoke out against it - and yes, I'm talking about the "Wahhabi" ulama - was removed from his post by the government. Why are you bent on equating the Saudi monarchy with Salafism? The Saudi government is made up of a large monarchic family. Even within this family you have differing views - sometimes diametrically opposed views. Every knows what kind of a fitnah monger Waleed bin Talal is but he is hardly the typical "Salafi" - he has no issue with unveiled ghayr mahram women surrounding him, has no issue with music (after all, he owns Rotana, an Arabic music television), has no issues with riba (he has his money invested in various international interest-based ventures) - and if we're to believe the Western press, other members of the family like him (and possibly himself) have no issue with eating/drinking haraam. But this is hardly the case with the ulama of Saudi Arabia. And this is hardly the case with some other members of the royal family.

We have to be just in our approach and not go foaming at the mouth at the sight of a "Wahhabi".

[Liaiskelile]

“You accuse us of not respecting scholars, so which scholar are you qoting from now? Same question regarding your "undesirable" hukm”

I clearly said it’s “my opinion” so quite clever of you to portray it as a “hukm”.

Now I never accused you with regards to scholars etc…, I don’t even know you, This is a clear lie towards me. Who are you? and who is this “us” you talk about?

Boxes, boxes, boxes. People of small thinking always keep to their boxes, it’s easier that way. Lailaha ilallahu muhammadur rasullah. There you go which box do you want to put me into now?

If any prominent muslim e.g. scholar makes a criticism of the Saudi royal family etc… Do you think they’d ever be able to visit the house of God in Mecca ever again? I’m a nobody, me and a lot of people like me do issue a lot of criticism against SA just like we do against Israel. And saudi’s know they have people like you in the world to defend them. So they don’t fear people like me, which is good for me also, don’t want the mossad after me do I.

"If kufr symbols are haraam then this means nike is haraam too, are nike trainers haraam?....."

Now that is the thing, i've sat patiently through saudi sponsored "salafi" lectures/talks where they said this very thing, giving nike as an example, that it is haram to wear symbols like that!!!! Wallah. masallah.

So here i'm asking why is there one rule for me and another for you (not you personally but all wahabis)? isn't that hypocrisy? When did I become a second grade citizen of the Islamic ummah?

[ulnanVti]

brother, are you saying that you are allowed to preceed the ulema? So your a ghayr muqalid then?

Or your saying not a single alim in the world will dare speak against saudi lest their visa applications get rejected. Does this apply tothe deobandi ulema? Sounds like quite a heavy accusation to make, that all the deobandi ulema are in such fear of a visa rejection that non of them mentioned this clock and so you, an unknown random from the internet needed to inform us all of it. what is even the point of this thread? Do you hope we all get worked up into a frenzy and demlolish it whilst on hajj?

Also why are you equate salafis with the saudi royal family. You do realise that we dont take out fatawa from king saud.

Dont sidestep my question on taqleed. do you affirm the need for laymen to make taqleed, and if so, why are you preceeding scholars on this issue?

If a salafi da'ee deamed nike to be haraam then that doesnt mean king abdullah is instantly going to follow his fatwa. Salafis in general dont believe there is much benefit blasting rulers for the sake of blasting rulers so they arent going to shout about every little thing that saudi or any other muslim country does wrong. Much can be said for virtually every muslim country today, I could keep posting about their errors till i reach old age, but what will that acheieve. I dont see deobandi ulema blasting the rulers either. Its because the salafi and deobandi ulema have wisdom and knowledge far above ours and they understand what the important things are for the ummah and tell us what will benefit us. Its eems some people will scream and shout about taqleed till the cows come home but then folllow their desires and start banging on about things which the ulema have placed absolutely no importance on

I wish people would actually start following the ulema because wallah a lot of our problems would be resolved

[Liaiskelile]

"I think I'm experiencing deja vu because I remember responding to an identical thread by this same OP"

search for that thread, somehow someone deleted it, i wonder why

"It is hardly a bid'ah that the clock lights up"

it's not just the clock lighting up, go and check on youtube for what actually happens. and I'm NOT saying it is REPLACING the azan but IN ADDITION to the azan that makes it bida. i.e. previously it was just SOUND but now it's SOUND and LIGHT.

The prophet(pbuh) could have said to the muezine to call for prayer and at the same time way a torch (for whatever reason) but the call to prayer is specified in Islam and it doesn't include signalling by light. That is why it is bida distinct from speakerphone etc... because speakers marely project the sound further, wheras signalling by light is a totaql new thing.

" the "Wahhabi" ulama - was removed from his post by the government........Why are you bent on equating the Saudi monarchy with Salafism?"

goes to prove the point in my previous post. Salafis and Wahabis need to acknowledge their way of thinking was made prominent by the western sponsored saudi government. It is unfortunate but it's the truth.

[ulnanVti]

"I think I'm experiencing deja vu because I remember responding to an identical thread by this same OP"

search for that thread, somehow someone deleted it, i wonder why

"It is hardly a bid'ah that the clock lights up"

it's not just the clock lighting up, go and check on youtube for what actually happens. and I'm NOT saying it is REPLACING the azan but IN ADDITION to the azan that makes it bida. i.e. previously it was just SOUND but now it's SOUND and LIGHT.

The prophet(pbuh) could have said to the muezine to call for prayer and at the same time way a torch (for whatever reason) but the call to prayer is specified in Islam and it doesn't include signalling by light. That is why it is bida distinct from speakerphone etc... because speakers marely project the sound further, wheras signalling by light is a totaql new thing.

" the "Wahhabi" ulama - was removed from his post by the government........Why are you bent on equating the Saudi monarchy with Salafism?"

goes to prove the point in my previous post. Salafis and Wahabis need to acknowledge their way of thinking was made prominent by the western sponsored saudi government. It is unfortunate but it's the truth.

you clearly havent read my post. Bid'ah according to salafis is an newly introduced RITUAL. If I start doing star jumps and believe that if I keep doing them I will earn reward of Allah, this is an innovation. If I do star jumps in order to get fit in order to serva Allah its NOT innovation. An innovation is where you do an act as a ritual in and of itself for reward with no worldly benefit. Examples include in the time of shaikh ul islam muhammad ibn abdul wahhab, people used to put their babies in tree's hoping that it would bless the child.

here is a nice salafi article on bid'ah:

http://www.bidah.com/articles/ssxgw-...ted-part-5.cfm


the lights wouldnt be considered innovation because they are not ritualistic, they are just a means of people seeing that its salaah time. Its just a practical thing. You havent understood what salafis oppose if you think this falls under their definition of bid'ah

[Liaiskelile]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKtmcNdmt7E

here is a link, now it's best to see various videos to get the full picture, so please browse using the sidebar.

it looks like the lights start flashing atleast about 10 seconds before the azan, so people are called to prayer first by the lights and then by the azaan.

[ulnanVti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKtmcNdmt7E

here is a link, now it's best to see various videos to get the full picture, so please browse using the sidebar.

it looks like the lights start flashing atleast about 10 seconds before the azan, so people are called to prayer first by the lights and then by the azaan.

brother, do you put up christmas lights during mawleed? Serious question. Because im pretty sure if otehr groups did this adhaan clock thing you would be praising it, I think its only because its the "wahhabis" doing it that you hate it so much. Please bare in mind this is a forum full of people who are opposed to ghayr taqleed so you cant expect them to base their oppinion on a random unknown fatwa/"oppinion". Why not contact an alim for a fatwa on this and whether its worth posting up your objections and what the hukm is etc and then post the response up here inshAllah. You yourself agree its not even haraam so surely there are more important issues to raise

I watched the video but you started this thread talking about how islam used symbols of islam like the cresent moon, minarets etc to raise islam up high but the clock has the name of Allah and a cresent moon at the top. I just think your making a big deal out of nothing just because of your hatred for "wahhabis". I just dont think this is a pressing issue for muslims. Its not even haraam. We have rulers who are forcing our muslim brothers to make sajdah on their images right now and bombarding whole towns. I just dont feel this clock is a particularly pressing issue