[hablyShappY]

Slmz, mospike

No, not the 'inlaws' .... I was told this by a nationally respected Moulana in the Strand some years back (he is still the Moulana of Al Jamia Masjied today.)He was the Shafii Moulana that taught me the Arkaan and other basics of Deen. (May Allah make him lofty in the hereafter.) Also in the Strand the Masjied is open to all as it should be....I do not judge other muslims beliefs - Let us leave that for Allah (SWT),I did not originally ask for advise on wether I personally should follow any of the Ulema (being referred to Ulema who's Aqeeda is not the same as my frame of references.My original question was (in simple terms) can someone out there give me info on the permissabillity of using a drum/drums whilst making Ratipul Gadat, loud zikr (standing), making a gadat if it is someone's birthday, celebrating our beloved Nabi (SAW's) birthday.

Any one out there ....?

Wslmz,

Bro Mo.

Allah (SWT) knows best.

[Cogebrego]

What a sad sad predicament...

Honestly, how many out there have been fooled into believing that the 'Ulama of Deoband have 'batil' 'Aqidah and false beliefs? How many are more concerned with extra (and some doubtful) practices while the true and emphasized Sunnahs are being totally disregarded? My guess is that there are MULTITUDES of such people out there...

That is not to say you are one of them brother. I am talking in general.

Wassalam

[hablyShappY]

Slmz, Bro SunniWaqas

I am not too concerned with what the actual Aqeeda of the Deoband scholars are, I am sure they are Saligh and of solid convictions-as for the 'proof' posted about the 'deviant beliefs' I can not comment on that as I am definately no scholar myself . The main thing is as you correctly stated is to follow the Sunnahs. Once again I am requesting (out of personal curiosity) some strong hadith based responses to the permissabillity of the 'extra' acts that are performed by some of the local Jamaat in South Africa. It was never my intention to cause any form of Fitna.

The reason for me asking this is that I am regularly invited to these Gadats etc. and I am sure it is 'OK' for someone who was born into Islaam (and into those specific traditions) not to even question it/the permissabillity in view of the Deen.

However as I've stated being a revert and a layman I naturally want to follow a 'pure path' and I've encountered brothers from both convictions (Deobandi and Sunni (?)) and they are forever putting each other down instead of embracing each other as brothers in Islaam.

So much then for the brotherhood in Islaam.....

These issues never used to bother me but as time goes on and I became exposed to Muslims with differing opinions I started thinking is there not a middle road, why the extremeness, bit scary.

May Allah (SWT) guide us all.

Wslmz,

Bro Riyaaz

[Cogebrego]

Slmz, Bro SunniWaqas

I am not too concerned with what the actual Aqeeda of the Deoband scholars are, I am sure they are Saligh and of solid convictions-as for the 'proof' posted about the 'deviant beliefs' I can not comment on that as I am definately no scholar myself . The main thing is as you correctly stated is to follow the Sunnahs. Once again I am requesting (out of personal curiosity) some strong hadith based responses to the permissabillity of the 'extra' acts that are performed by some of the local Jamaat in South Africa. It was never my intention to cause any form of Fitna.

The reason for me asking this is that I am regularly invited to these Gadats etc. and I am sure it is 'OK' for someone who was born into Islaam (and into those specific traditions) not to even question it/the permissabillity in view of the Deen.

However as I've stated being a revert and a layman I naturally want to follow a 'pure path' and I've encountered brothers from both convictions (Deobandi and Sunni (?)) and they are forever putting each other down instead of embracing each other as brothers in Islaam.

So much then for the brotherhood in Islaam.....

These issues never used to bother me but as time goes on and I became exposed to Muslims with differing opinions I started thinking is there not a middle road, why the extremeness, bit scary.

May Allah (SWT) guide us all.

Wslmz,

Bro Riyaaz

brother,

Your points are well-taken. You have every right to ask questions. InshaAllah, some of the South African brothers will be in a better position to comment on the specifics of your query and the practices. I will leave it to them.

Wassalam

[ASSESTYTEAH]

Okay let me explain what Ghadat and Rateebul Ghadat is:

Ghadats are gatherings which the Malay muslims used as a tool to learn deen and make the Thikr of Allah way back in the days of slavery, it's was the Slaves who were brought over from Malaysia and Indonesia who first used this as a tool for keeping Islam alive.......

Todays format is as follows

Brothers and Sisters gather either in the Musjid or at someones home

They read Surah Yaseen 3 times
Tabarak; Alif La Meem and Lillahi and then the last three surahs
Then Different kinds of Athkaar are recited
Then dua
Then you eat

Variations include using a drum and sometimes singing the islamic praises

Rateepul Ghadat

I've only seen this twice or thrice. Basically the dancers go into a trans out of making thikr, they then stab themselves through the ears and stomachs, some bleed others dont.....

you make up your own mind

[hablyShappY]

Slmz, brother mospike

Jazak-Aallah for that response, now that makes more sense to me....

Ok, so what I've witnessed and been invited to are basically Malay customs/traditions and me not being of Malay descent (actually my wife is also not Malay but Indian however being from CT she is used to /familiar with these customs), I should not feel obliged to participate (it would not make me a 'lesser Muslim' if I do not.)

So if I am invited to a Gadat etc. I do not have to go or observe etc...I can stick to the basic Sunnah like Salaah (which I believe is the most important act of Ibaadah.)

As I have said before I am a layman and prefer to keep things basic and simple. On the other hand I am apprehensive (let us call it cautious of critisism), of being called a Salafi/Tablighi brother (which I also am not!)

May Allah (SWT) guide us and keep us on the straight path Insha - Allah.

Wslmz,

Bro Riyaaz

[ASSESTYTEAH]

Asalamualykum Riyaaz

Did you attend any islamic classes since you embraced Islam?

[hablyShappY]

Slmz, mospike

Yes, I've reverted about 8 years ago. I attended evening classes in CT at the local Madrassa in the Strand for a couple of months on Aqeeda, basic Arkaan and Sunnah after embracing Islaam.

Also I have various Hanafi and Shafii Fiqh kitaab on Zakaat, Salaah etc.

Also have Ar Rissallah at home for quick reference at times.

Wslmz,

Bro Riyaaz

[hablyShappY]

Slmz, mospike

Am I correct in assuming that you are not a Malay brother ?(According to one of my dear brothers the Ratipul Gadat is not just practised by Malays but also by millions of Muslims in the Holy Makkah, Malaysia, Africa, Indonesia, USA and rest of the world .)

He also reffered me to this link :

www.iqra.net

Wslmz,

Bro Riyaaz.

[ASSESTYTEAH]

Wasalaam

I am a Indian who was born and raised in a Malay community...

I always believe that the format of our Ghadats were unique to South Africa. You will find (and my uncle in New Zealand told me this) that South Africans who move overseas tend to hold on to this tradition and thus they further initiate this format in their adopted countries....

The problem is that when these gatherings are held outside the musjid you will find that Intermingling of the sexes is prevalant, the quraan is read without tajwid because of the screaming of all in unision (alsmost as if the louder you recite the more sincere you are)

Lets put it this way,,,

Our internet conversation aint gonna stop them from doing what they are doing....
However should you or anyone else for that matter wish to refrain from joining them and then they brand us in nasty way, this is where we have the right to oppose them and highlight their ignorance...

[hablyShappY]

Slmz, mospike

If you do not follow the 'Malay style' (by the way I also do not as I am of European descent) as you mentioned in one of the earlier threads, then which 'style' do you follow ?

This raises another question.....If most 'uneducated' Muslims from previous generations (Indian, Malay, Turkish, Uzbeks Chechiyans etc.) followed traditional practices (and it seems that the viewpoint is that these are Bidat's to be avoided (?)) - meaning your forefathers (from India, similarly my wife's from Gujarat) even held on to these traditions, then what would their status be ?

Are they deemed as 'sinners' , because they did not make Taubah for commiting these 'Bidats' ?

I was taught that one should have the utmost respect for one's parents in Islaam.

Wslmz,

Bro Riyaaz

[hablyShappY]

Slmz, mospike

If you do not follow the 'Malay style' (by the way I also do not as I am of European descent) as you mentioned in one of the earlier threads, then which 'style' do you follow ?

This raises another question.....If most 'uneducated' Muslims from previous generations (Indian, Malay, Turkish, Uzbeks Chechiyans etc.) followed traditional practices (and it seems that the viewpoint is that these are Bidat's to be avoided (?)) - meaning your forefathers (from India, similarly my wife's from Gujarat) even held on to these traditions, then what would their status be ?

Are they deemed as 'sinners' , because they did not make Taubah for commiting these 'Bidats' ?

I was taught that one should have the utmost respect for one's parents in Islaam.

Wslmz,

Bro Riyaaz

[Janny2006]

Rateepul Ghadat

I've only seen this twice or thrice. Basically the dancers go into a trans out of making thikr, they then stab themselves through the ears and stomachs, some bleed others dont.....

you make up your own mind

In Indonesia, they call it debus (similar form, but might be different)

[hablyShappY]

Slmz,

786

Show me a nation on the face of this earth without heritage and culture……if you have time please visit this site I gave you yesterday…there is the explanation of the Ratib al ghadat as well as the Ratib al attas.

Wslmz,

Bro Mo.

[ASSESTYTEAH]

I visited the site you linked to,, Mashallah the info is very detailed....

I was speaking to my Grand Father yesterday and he was telling more about the ratibul attas etc... he still remembers the Athkaar and he recited a few lines to me..........

[iiilizium]

Salaams

this is a very old post, sorry to liven it up again. but there are some points made that were very incorrect & misunderstood. if any of you still want clarity on this then let me know.

[hablyShappY]

Slmz,

My search for answers continues.

Your feedback/addressing the incorrect points would be appreciated!

[iiilizium]

I dont think I know you but i lived in Bosmont & still frequent the masjied. If you were ever to go back to Cape town for a visit I sugest you sit down with Imaam that taught you the basics. If Im not mistaken all the masjieds & madrasahs are run by the flag bearing Karaan family. Ml Yusuf once spoke beautifuly on the maulid on the radio in cape town. he also goes to gaddads & maulids. they students of the Darul Uloom go as well & even Hadrah.

what is most disterbing is that you asked about Ratiebul Gaddad- well you idea about it is completely wrong. the event where they play drums & stab themselvs is called Ratib- which is a south african term for the ritual & goes back to the Rifai' tariqah. the gaddad is but a few surahs, some very benificial adhkaar & tehn dua'. it is to be read every night & doesnt need a tune or a large group. In the old days it became a hadrah ( this a broad term & not only used for the rythmic dhikrs) due to the need for it & it remained like that ever since. in my stay with the people who's forefathers wrote the Ratieb I asked about the way we did it & even did it in their presence the way it is done in South Africa & they said nothing wrong with that. our sheikh on his visit to SA also sat in the SA style & all he said was that he could feel the presence of Imaam Gaddad with us in SA.

[hablyShappY]

I dont think I know you but i lived in Bosmont & still frequent the masjied. If you were ever to go back to Cape town for a visit I sugest you sit down with Imaam that taught you the basics. If Im not mistaken all the masjieds & madrasahs are run by the flag bearing Karaan family. Ml Yusuf once spoke beautifuly on the maulid on the radio in cape town. he also goes to gaddads & maulids. they students of the Darul Uloom go as well & even Hadrah.

what is most disterbing is that you asked about Ratiebul Gaddad- well you idea about it is completely wrong. the event where they play drums & stab themselvs is called Ratib- which is a south african term for the ritual & goes back to the Rifai' tariqah. the gaddad is but a few surahs, some very benificial adhkaar & tehn dua'. it is to be read every night & doesnt need a tune or a large group. In the old days it became a hadrah ( this a broad term & not only used for the rythmic dhikrs) due to the need for it & it remained like that ever since. in my stay with the people who's forefathers wrote the Ratieb I asked about the way we did it & even did it in their presence the way it is done in South Africa & they said nothing wrong with that. our sheikh on his visit to SA also sat in the SA style & all he said was that he could feel the presence of Imaam Gaddad with us in SA.

Slmz

Jzk for your detailed answer. When I originally got involved in this thread I was quite ignorant about these matters gadat, Ratib etc.),(actually read it today for the first time again after 2 years and it seemed odd!) I humbly apologise for my ignorance! Maulana Yusuf Karaan and Haji Gosein (his deputy Imaam) was in fact my Ustaaz in CT. However the teachings were basic Islaam (nothing was mentioned about Maulid, gadat etc. - Maybe I should have just asked them at the time (but it did not occur to me...as I thought at the time it was 'standard' Islaam (?) It was only later in my life (as a muslim) that I observed different (conflicting?) attitudes concerning tariqas/sufism etc.

[iiilizium]

you had great teachers go back to CT. you would never find discussions about maulids or gadat on an acedemic level because there was never a need for it. the need has risen now & I know that there are shuyookh looking into this & correcting the dhikrs so that no body can point fingers. I realy dont know you. do you still live in Bosmont. what i can tell you is if you joint a gadat jamaa you would be able to memorise alot of quran in quick time & no effort.