[AnthonyKing]

The original poster comes off as someone very condescending. She claims to be very knowledgeable about Islam. When a brother replied that she lacks knowledge, she got on her high horse and implied as if she had mastery in all the facets of Islam and that the only explanation that should make sense to us is that she is supposedly possessed by the devil since she is obviously too learned about Islam. She also misquotes the brother by implying that she prostrate to the 'ulama and then calls the suggestion "un-Islamic" when he never suggested such a thing.

Also, the thread title "Thank you all!" - she's trying to say that WE are responsible for her reaching her irtidad. It is only Allah that guides and lets go astray. She obviously did lack real knowledge about Islam as we can tell from her response to brother "UserInvalid". She is obviously NOT after the truth but she appears to be a slave to subjective morality. Moralities created by mankind are flavours of the day. It isn't considered immoral in some parts of the West to walk around naked. It isn't considered immoral in some parts of the West to indulge in all sorts of drugs. She wants to look at Islam through Western moralities that are fragile and always changing. Well, guess what? You won't like Islam if you approach it with such subjectivity.

Islam is an eternal and complete religion. Its moralities won't change. If you want to satisfy your nafs - your ego - Islam is not something you're going to like. The original poster obviously suffers from this. Her level of Islamic "knowledge" is apparently limited to her browsing through various forums. Real knowledge cannot be gained through books and reading.

All in all, objective truths do not matter to her. If Allah even directly told her that he has forbidden homosexuality or forbidden pork, she would reject Him because His commands do not fit in with her ego and her subjective morality. I don't know why we are patronizing her when she wasn't sincere in her approach to Islam to begin with.

[RalfDweflywex]

the OP is just an attention seeker and only came on here to get a reaction. if she wants to leave then that is her choice. islam will not suffer in the least due to her apostacy. she obviously thinks she knows better than Allah and His Rasool then so be it. she will find out one way or another when she leaves this world. if she is willing to listen to good advice from the members then advise her. if she isnt willing to listen but just wants to gloat and try to show how superior she is then just let her go. Allah does not need her. If Allah wants to guide her then she will come back to the deen. If Allah does not then it is her loss and no one can do anything about it.

this thread should be deleted as others can get influenced by this. sunniforum should not be a soapbox for apostates, munafiqs and kuffar.

[klubneras]

Either the poster is :
1. Telling the truth, she is not convinced of Islam.
or
2. She is just faking it, just another evangelical christians doing Taqiyya.

If its the 2nd case I have nothing to say. May Allah protect us. Ameen.

If she is actually telling the truth, then she is just another apostate. It can happen to anyone with lack of Imaan (faith). Its the defect of the person, not that of Islam. Islam is a perfected religion. All we can do is advice the person and make Dua for that person, we will get its reward. Only Allah Ta'ala guide a person and He won't change a persons condition unless he/she mends the heart.

@peach
I request you to re examine your stand. I don't think a 'debate' style discussion will be of any use, as it will fuel ones ego and won't help much. Rather you can do your own soul searching, if you want help please do post here.

If anyone rejects Islam, its thats persons loss alone. Islam doesn't lose anything. May Allah cause us to live and die as a Muslim. Ameen.

".....and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy.
And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you."
(Suratul Muhammad: 38)

[ServiceColas]

It is strange when people reject Islam because it does not follow their own personal moral code. For starters, their own code is subjective and they want God to give commands according to the will of the Creation instead of changing their own morality according to the Will of God

[Rufio]

Bismillah Ir-Rehman Ir-Raheem

Peace, Sister Peaches:

May Allah guide you, me, and all of us to the Straight Path.

When I was in college freshman, a program director hired me as tutor to highschool students from low socioeconomic and disadvantaged backgrounds who were struggling academically in school. During this time, in one of the one-on-one meetings with student to find out their academic challenges, I was confronted with an insolent and blatantly rude attitude from one of the students. The ebony girl was large and tall, and she was confident she could intimidate others, including me. I had no doubt that the girl adopted the same attitude with teachers, and they probably gave into her “don’t-mess-me” attitude probably by ignoring the behavior, secretly hating her, or chewing her out in front of her peers.

However, I decided not to play her game. Instead, I calmly called her out on her attitude, undoubtedly surprising her. I don’t know what she expected, but it probably wasn’t my telling her that I thought her “attitude” was bluster and a front and she had better realize that I saw beyond it to the person she was and could be.

In those few minutes, I think we forged an understanding that went beyond our tutor-student relationship and she dropped her guard. No, she didn’t magically transform into a model of propriety from that session onwards, but I can honestly say she never from that moment of our acquaintance behaved with me the way I saw her still often behave with others, most especially her teachers and peers.

In that same way, I refuse to play your game.

If we are to play a game, let’s change the game, shall we, my sister in humanity?

Life is precious and scary; people can be mean and critical. Bad things happen. That’s just life. However, I refuse to accept your excuses. You cannot camouflage your own inadequacies and lack of understanding in regards to Islam to tell me that you left Islam because of Islam and not because of your own limitations and insecurities.

Frankly, my dear, misguided Sister, Islam is perfection. Having been once an atheist, I can tell you this as a 21st century modern, highly educated independent woman. I am 100% sure that Islam is the truth and I now find /agnosticism an intellectually inferior and spiritually deficient position and view with grimness my own blindness and ignorance to the truth.

You and I…we have walked different paths in life…made different choices. However, let’s not pretend with one another that you have found the “answers” to life’s problematic questions. Instead, all you have really done is chosen a different path and run away from facing all the questions to which you do not possess answers.

You know, when I was in high school, I remember watching The Oprah Show on successful people. However, what stood out that day to me that day was one particular story of all the others because of the human aspect that rung true, even if sad and pathetic. The successful businesswomen featured in the show said that before her success, she was in a committed relationship with a man whom she believed she was going to marry. However, one day, that same man, after years of refusing to take the plunge into matrimony with her, married happily to another woman within one month or so of dumping her. She was shocked, not to mention angry. So, she found out where he lived with his wife and slashed his car tires. When she shared the story, mortified color flushed her skin. Since she was denied the means of lashing out at him, as she had obviously then desired, she thought up the next best thing in her mind. In that same way, you came on the Forum as a means of lashing out. Oh, you did in a very gentle and subtle way, but to me, it could not have been more pronounced than if you had in bold, big font text written, “Happily ex-Muslim, you idiots.”

Also, your words belie your saying that you have studied Islam with any care or precision, apart of course from some rules and injunctions at a superficial level that had your eyes roll in disbelief at what you considered outmoded ideas. Many points about Wahabbism, spirituality, and other relevant points pertinent to homosexuality underscore your lack of knowledge about what Islam is, let alone why you or I or anyone else in the world would want to submit to Islam.

If you can, imagine life as a vehicle in which you are in the driver’s seat with death as a destination.

If the driver’s seat is occupied by a competent and knowledgeable person, the person is able to navigate. Without knowledge and competence, a person is bound to get lost. Whether you believe me or not, you are presently lost because you have neither knowledge nor competence. Competence requires knowledge, and because you do not have knowledge, you lack the competence required to judge your knowledge. When I say knowledge, it will surprise you to know that I refer to not only Islam as a way of life but practicalities and realities of the status quo world.

To underscore this point, I refer you to the results of a study of two men from the Department of Psychology at Cornell University, which measured in quantifiable and viable terms how profoundly people miscalculate their skills or knowledge in relation to actual knowledge or abilities. The article is called, “Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing in One’s Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments.”

You see, my dear, misguided Sister, the reason you feel competent to judge Islam is because you do not have the requisite knowledge of Islam to understand its spirit or any of its underlying depth of wisdom. Also, from your own sweeping statements and generalizations, I do not believe you have studied human nature or its myriad perversities manifested in the world. If you did, you would see from every which way that you would look at Islam, you would see the answer.

Also, with regards to aspects of the spiritual such as witchcraft or the like, I have to say that they are true. If I brought a glass of water with salt dissolved in the liquid, you would not be able to tell that the salt is present until you tasted it. Therefore, it is foolish to deny something that falls under the realm of the Unseen, just as the salt in the transparent liquid would be in the realm of unseen to you and therefore unknown to your naked eye until you drank from the glass. Frankly, my dear, misguided Sister, spirituality is far too advanced a topic for you right now, because a baby must first learn to crawl before it can walk and walk before it can run. And since you deny the first principle of Islam, “La la ilaha illa allah muhammad rasool allah,” I would say that you should first concentrate on that if you were interested in learning about Islam instead of theorizing and speculating on Islam as an edifice.

Tell me something. Does the answer to 2 + 2 change? Does it ever become 5 or 6? Why does it remain 4? In that same way, as you know, Muslims say that Islam is the Truth. Therefore, you are right. Islam cannot change. However, that is in the nature of the Truth. Truth does not change because it is All (Objective) Reality for All Time.

After I read your words, a memory niggled me. It was the memory of a car bumper sticker, of all things. One day, when I was in the car with my parents a long time ago, I saw a car bumper sticker that had read, “If you live like there is no God, you better be right.” The words had spooked me even when I did not believe in God. I wanted to share them with you because they might be food for thought.

Allah has said in the Quran, “But Allah is free of all wants, and it is ye that are needy. If ye turn back (from the Path), He will substitute in your stead another people; then they would not be like you (47:38)!”

Sister Peaches, the above is the importance Allah gives to people who turn back from Islam. In some ways, many of us assign ourselves some outward value, but Allah tells humanity that far from the importance we assign ourselves as individuals, we should realize we are not irreplaceable. Therefore, if we desire good for ourselves, we will do as Allah says and not our own imperfect will because His Will is Perfect.

Presently, Sister, what you have done is exchanged gold for dross. Islam is gold, and the world is dross. You have made an inferior choice.

You may hope that you have made the right choice for yourself, but you will never have the certainty, will you? My advice would be study Islam again (and this time do it right). If you wish, you may begin with these two videos: Divine Speech Prologue 1 and Divine Speech Prologue 2. Or you may not.

In the end, however, as you know, the choice is really yours. Allah never forces anyone to believe, because He wants us to exercise our free will.

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things (Quran 2:256).
If I have said anything that is good and true, it is from Allah, and anything other that is my own mistake.

[irrascaft]

@peach - Quick question for you, do you believe in Judgement day ?

[Lgcjqxlw]

@Anybody: Thanks for replying to my post. I intended to make my previous post the last one, but after seeing your reply I had to respond. And thank you for your kind words, and for taking my words at face value unlike many other members, although I don't blame them for that.

I'm not playing any games but now that you said it, one of the reasons that drove me to create this thread was the 'lashing out' you were talking about. But I was not lashing out at Muslims or Islam, it was because I have to live with the fact that I cannot really tell my family or most of my friends about this decision out of fear of being an outcast. I'm not looking for acceptance of my ideas, certainly not on this forum. As far as knowledge is concerned, it would be arrogant for any person to assume they know everything, especially about a religion as diverse and as voluminous in text as Islam. I don't think by not believing in Islam I've gained any peace of mind - it is forcing me to live a double life and in fear of what would happen if the truth were to slip out to my family. I have not stopped believing because of some personal issues or a tragic encounter. I actually have a comfortable life, a great husband and a decent career. And for long, Islam was only a secondary aspect in my life. I could have chosen to live like that forever.

When I first traveled to Western countries, I swallowed everything as cultural difference, thinking we all just do things differently. Only when I returned to my country, and lived in Saudi I realized what we've turned ourselves into. Now, I'm no apologist for Western culture either. Their treatment of women is equally degrading as ours, if not worse. The constant portrayal of women as sexual objects, the naked casino capitalism and a superficial sense of freedom doesn't fool me. But I think we Muslims have trapped ourselves in mundane, fruitless banter about religion while our economies, political systems and societies are rotting away.

I have known a few Muslims who stop believing in Islam, and after several years turn back. And I've read about a few famous ones too. You yourself say that you've been an atheist before, so you should perhaps understand better than some of the hyper-reactive users on this forum. I don't know if you were born Muslim, but I bet you can't even describe the joy, the peace of mind of believing in Islam after being an atheist. To finally know that you have arrived, on your own, to the truth. I know most people around me believe in Islam because they were told so at a young age. Their belief is a matter of ego, that what they've always been told has to be right. At least that's how I felt. Why is it that so many Muslims, even on this forum, worry more about rather peripheral issues like how women dress or why polygamy should be allowed or debunking various sects within Islam and declaring them kafir, than focusing on the most important things in Islam: belief in Allah and the Messenger, prayers, fasting, etc.?

So do you wish to deny me that quest for truth? I do not hold any grudge against Allah or the Messenger, as people here appear to have assumed. I'll be happy to believe in Islam but on my own accord. I want to be a Muslim not because I was born as one, or for fear that my society won't accept me otherwise. Right now, many things in Islam appear wrong to me and I believe continuing as a Muslim would be hypocritical. I may arrive at something else that would give me spiritual bliss, but there is something inside me that just hopes it is Islam, so that I can be at peace with the world around me.

You talk about me judging Islam. Your real issue is that I've a negative judgement of Islam. If I were to be ignorant and said flowery things about the religion, you wouldn't really care, would you? I do not claim to be a scholar in Islam, yet my knowledge isn't as limited as you'd like to paint. And even though I hate this patronizing attitude, I do not take offence because I understand your perspective. However, for meaningful dialogue I'd prefer you don't treat me with kid gloves ("I do not believe you have studied human nature or its myriad perversities manifested in the world". Seriously?). I've not exchanged Islam for any other (established) belief, but I'm open to that. Meanwhile, I'm very much interested in a mature, dispassionate dialogue about Islamic theology.

Thanks again for your response, and peace.

PS Sister, when Allah doesn't force us to believe, why do we Muslims do that to each other?

[epPtsDno]

i am dissapointed with your decision but i respect it

[mudozvonf]

Peace be to those who seek Guidance.

All Glory belongs to the Most High, the Independent One, the Lord of the Worlds who is far above and beyond the petty imperfections and failings of men AND women.

I am NOT impressed by Peach's personal declaration against Islam and Muslims on this forum. It is disgraceful, and beyond proper etiquette to take the company of people who welcome you, only to at one point declare allegiance against them, despite enjoying their company.
How treacherous! And to expect that her treachery and insult is accepted and respected?


Islam IS a mercy from Allah to mankind.
It always has been and continues to be until the Last Day.
But Peach rejects this mercy while selfishly enjoying other mercies of Allah.
How is your health, Peach?
How are your provisions?
How is your family life?


I converted to Islam and faced many difficulties over the years to hold to Islam while living in the Darul shaytan that is American society.
By Allah, I made many sacrifices to hold fast to the Deen of Allah and worship the Most Merciful, the Most Loving, the Author of Peace.


In contrast, Peach has openly stated that she was raised in a Muslim household as a Muslim, taught all about Islam, surrounded by Muslims, has a good marriage and profession and life and Islam is secondary to her.

She has implied that she sacrificed little and done nothing for Allah, while HE, the Most Sublime, the Almighty, has been granted everything for her life. And yet, she has chosen a form of secular humanism propagated and preached by Western liberal ideologues who likely seem appealing and attractive to her.

It should be clear by her points of contention and her faulty logic.
Homosexuality is her point of contention?
Women's treatment is her point of contention?

She doesn't agree with Islam's social engineering, but subscribes to the social engineering of men, or what appears to more likely, the social engineering promoted by gay men and feminist women.

She would rather remain in Sodom and keep the company of its inhabitants because she doesn't like The Lord of the Worlds to command her to do anything.

This is what I read from her contributions in this thread.
She reflects the level of "freedom" that is alluded to by Western ideologues- that WOMEN in particular can rise above men, rise above family, even rise above God. The Guardian website has an CIF Comment from a woman author who loves and showers praise on parents, in particular a mother, who has attempted to diminish her 5 year old's son's masculine tendencies by dressing him in girl's clothes.

"Lucky Boy Raised Without Gender Roles"

This is what Peach seems to desire: social engineering to emasculate men, to deify women, to androgynize genders. And sadly, this is NOT of her own logical conclusion- this is a result of Western ideological propagation. When the US Sec of State Hillary Clinton demands "gay rights are human rights", it should be clear that people like Peach will bow down in obedience.


That is all for now.

May Allah guide those who submit to Him and seek His Mercy.

[epPtsDno]

Peace be to those who seek Guidance.

All Glory belongs to the Most High, the Independent One, the Lord of the Worlds who is far above and beyond the petty imperfections and failings of men AND women.

I am NOT impressed by Peach's personal declaration against Islam and Muslims on this forum. It is disgraceful, and beyond proper etiquette to take the company of people who welcome you, only to at one point declare allegiance against them, despite enjoying their company.
How treacherous! And to expect that her treachery and insult is accepted and respected?


Islam IS a mercy from Allah to mankind.
It always has been and continues to be until the Last Day.
But Peach rejects this mercy while selfishly enjoying other mercies of Allah.
How is your health, Peach?
How are your provisions?
How is your family life?


I converted to Islam and faced many difficulties over the years to hold to Islam while living in the Darul shaytan that is American society.
By Allah, I made many sacrifices to hold fast to the Deen of Allah and worship the Most Merciful, the Most Loving, the Author of Peace.


In contrast, Peach has openly stated that she was raised in a Muslim household as a Muslim, taught all about Islam, surrounded by Muslims, has a good marriage and profession and life and Islam is secondary to her.

She has implied that she sacrificed little and done nothing for Allah, while HE, the Most Sublime, the Almighty, has been granted everything for her life. And yet, she has chosen a form of secular humanism propagated and preached by Western liberal ideologues who likely seem appealing and attractive to her.

It should be clear by her points of contention and her faulty logic.
Homosexuality is her point of contention?
Women's treatment is her point of contention?

She doesn't agree with Islam's social engineering, but subscribes to the social engineering of men, or what appears to more likely, the social engineering promoted by gay men and feminist women.

She would rather remain in Sodom and keep the company of its inhabitants because she doesn't like The Lord of the Worlds to command her to do anything.

This is what I read from her contributions in this thread.
She reflects the level of "freedom" that is alluded to by Western ideologues- that WOMEN in particular can rise above men, rise above family, even rise above God. The Guardian website has an CIF Comment from a woman author who loves and showers praise on parents, in particular a mother, who has attempted to diminish her 5 year old's son's masculine tendencies by dressing him in girl's clothes.

"Lucky Boy Raised Without Gender Roles"

This is what Peach seems to desire: social engineering to emasculate men, to deify women, to androgynize genders. And sadly, this is NOT of her own logical conclusion- this is a result of Western ideological propagation. When the US Sec of State Hillary Clinton demands "gay rights are human rights", it should be clear that people like Peach will bow down in obedience.


That is all for now.

May Allah guide those who submit to Him and seek His Mercy.

i am not welcoming her or any thing but well its her choice and me and you are not going to get punished for her actions lets all hope that allah guides her to the right path

[bactrimtab]

Assalamu alaykum

Sister Peach:

From your vast amount of knowledge about Islam you have quoted negatives (which you think). You have experienced the west, now from your knowledge please quote what Islam gives better than the west to both men and women. You will be doing justice to this forum members by posting that.

[mudozvonf]

i am not welcoming her or any thing but well its her choice and me and you are not going to get punished for her actions lets all hope that allah guides her to the right path

True, but she has hurt the feelings of my brothers and sisters and she has openly expressed treachery and demands it to be respected. I don't accept this from anyone in any instance. Why didn't she just disappear back into the black abyss of anonymity?

I left my Christian community by becoming Muslim, but I did not stand at the church door and shout out to the congregation what was wrong about them. Many of the people treated me well and were kind and I still respect them for that. But what kind of person does what Peach did?

[bactrimtab]

Assalamu alaykum


Either the poster is :
1. Telling the truth, she is not convinced of Islam.
or
2. She is just faking it, just another evangelical christians doing Taqiyya. Br Amr
I strongly believe it is the second choice. Reading the first post itself made me convinced on that.

[klubneras]

Assalamu alaykum

Br Amr
I strongly believe it is the second choice. Reading the first post itself made me convinced on that.

bro.

Its certainly a possibility, but there is nothing to lose giving her the benefit of doubt. People do reject Islam. It gives us a chance to convey Allah Ta'ala's message and we will get the reward for that. We should make Dua that both them and us are guided in the right path.

[911_993_911]

But I think we Muslims have trapped ourselves in mundane, fruitless banter about religion while our economies, political systems and societies are rotting away.

I've lived in the US all my life, and I can tell you, that this is true for the vast majority of Western nations as well. American democracy has failed, the family unit is dissolving, and the economy....well anyone who even skims the headlines knows what's going on. The West did not achieve its couple hundred centuries of prosperity because its ideological foundations are sound. Rather, it achieved prosperity through the exploitation and colonization of other people (although, to be fair, the rigorous pursuit of technological advancement was a huge, and admirable factor).

Additionally, there is no "Muslim" state today whose economy, political system or society is based on a correct implementation of shariah. However, the characteristic of apathy and laziness is not exclusive to Muslims. The majority of people in the world are like this; they are not concerned with improving their own communities. The people on this forum, however, I'd say are not part of that majority. Here you will find doctors, engineers, scholars who serve their communities in many different ways, despite participating in religious "banter".

[bestonline]

One more fan of sis Anybody...ha ha!

السلام عليكم

Well, at least I am not fan of the lots in the glamour world. This sister becomes genuinely concerned when she offers ''counselling'' in any context. So mine was an spontaneous shout for help. May Allah grants Barakah in her life. Ameen!

[DouseAuthott]

i am not welcoming her or any thing but well its her choice and me and you are not going to get punished for her actions lets all hope that allah guides her to the right path

She made a decision in which we did not contribute directly. Then she came to tell us that we have helped her in that. She makes us a party to her hideous decision - as already noted by brothers here. When she is making us a party then we have a right to take action. To say the least her decision is not respectable. To respect kufr is kufr. We can not even accept her decision. To apostatize is kufr and no Muslim can accept that. She should not have come here. My suggestion goes in favour of deletion of this thread.
Wassalam

[shinesw]

Many a people have left their faith and come back and those who don't live in the bitter reality of their decision with no happiness, contentment or peace of mind, the concept of the you being welcomed out of your faith with open arms getting rid of the burden of backwardness and turning a new leaf to success is an illussion, islam is a way of life which is why it is so complete from every concept of a persons life, a person is either submitted to his Lord or his nafs and shaytaan, homosexuality is a disease of the heart which like many other conditions of the heart such as extreme lust, passion, pride etc.if weaned in the right manner can go away and the heart can become cleansed if these illnesses are encouraged to spread their roots their evils will manifest themselves more in a persons life, everyone has these illnesses for some in the shape of homosexuality or even worse pride. A person is not born homosexual nor is one punished or sinning only when he agrees with the concept through action.

You say Islam is backward though I feel you are more refeclective of your own personal experience, if the way of life of the 7th century prophet is more advanced then what should we follow, if the way of the 7th century tells us to do istinjaa, and the atheists of the 21st century don't even know how to wash their backside then what should we follow, if the messenger tells us to treat our wives well and be romantic to them and be respectful to them and the atheist of the now tells his wife he loves her but kisses other women, is free to have an affair and divorces his wives without correct procedure or respect. If the messenger tells us to wash our hands before and after eating and the liberal tells us do what you want, if the messenger tells you to wash yourself after you have relations with your wife, if he says to serve your parents and liberals put them in a care home, the messenger showed love to the youth, learn knowledge, love for your muslim brother what you love for yourself, eat together as a family, to feed the poor. These gems are there and the more we follow the better our life will be. Islam is a whole way of life from which there is no alternative for yourself everything else is a mixture of this and that of culture and desire.

My advice is humble yourself, lower your pride and hurt over your experiences and turn back or you shall be swept away with no intention to come back, imaan look what is imaan. Imaan is worth more than to sell it cheap for a couple of minutes of this life of satisfying some carnel desires.

TURN BACK, as many have done in front of my eyes because there is nothing there, there is nothing there, every sin has a taint of kufr and to be a total kafir is total loss in this life and the hearafter.

There is no alternative to the Quran where is the alternative to the message of the Quran there is nothing comparable in its beauty, its message, its eloquence what is there Newtons book of physics, or poetry. Nothing compares why did the arabs say to messenger you a poet and when the Quran was to much for their poetry you are a magician, the liberals have no match for the Quran they don't look at the arabic they always work on the translation then to rubbish you off to look bad they say your backward, an islamist, a terrorist.

I could go on and on there is no alternative.

Remember islam is not in need of anyone, islam is a blessing of Allah so humble yourself and take the gift being offered to you. Many of the worst people become muslims because Allah is not dependent on anyone to give guidance e.g. sent his messenger to the arabs instead of the jews.

TAKE THE GIFT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dvp7xQib-4

[Stetbrate]

This led me to a critical study of Islam itself. "Don't look at Muslims, look at Islam" I was frequently told by friends. Yet the more I studied, the more I felt it is a doctrine stuck in the 7th century.

The biggest thorn for me has always been Islam's social engineering, its control over even the smallest aspects of human life. Its degradation of women into what Amnesty International calls 'perpetual minors'. Its unbridled, unabashed male chauvinism. Its outdated, retaliatory system of justice. Its denial of homosexuality as evil, and oppressive treatment of homosexuals. Its belief in magic and witchcraft. Its abhorrence to any foreign practice, even if it doesn't interfere with a Muslim's belief system. Its inherent opposition to democratic principles and freedom of expression. Its inability to allow Muslims to respectfully leave the faith for another belief system. Its intolerance for other belief systems in its midst. The various sects of Islam, all of whom try to outdo each other in their narrow-mindedness.

You have made a huge mistake. The Quote above makes various assumptions:

1) You have a template in your mind, it is based on ' how things should be'.

2) The template itself is unexamined you just think it is the standard by which everything must be judged and evaluated.

Some detailed examples your words are in quotation marks:

"I felt it is a doctrine stuck in the 7th century"

Underlying assumption we are better humans than those living hundreds or thousands of years ago, we have progressed. No evidence?

"Its degradation of women into what Amnesty International calls 'perpetual minors'"

Islamic teaching does not do this, and where is the evidence that your standard does not do this? And Amnesty International promotes what? Last time I looked women in the west pay taxes, work very hard to make ends meet and contribute to the upkeep of the family, how is this freedom? Islam gives women the dignity to be women, to own their own property, to be business women, writers, saints, doctors etc., however it makes the man responsible for providing for the family. The western world by making women into wage workers have made all of us men and women into under valued wage slaves. Real wages remain low, if the woman does not work and contribute her wage to the family the mortgage does not get paid. This is freedom?

"Its outdated, retaliatory system of justice. Its denial of homosexuality as evil, and oppressive treatment of homosexuals. Its belief in magic and witchcraft."

Outdated means, it does not compare to your contemporary 'high' standards, again there is nothing to prove no evidence to show that your system of justice is better and why. Many thinkers in the contemporary west eschew State created law, they prefer the British Common Law tradition where laws are discovered not made, and this resembles Islamic law. When parliaments make laws they usually create revenue for the State, they help create an economic elite who benefit from the laws and a vast prison system, in prison people get raped and physically beaten.

"Its denial of homosexuality as evil, and oppressive treatment of homosexuals."

Homosexuality is a minor issue, Islam publicly condemns it, but homosexuals are free to do what they want behind closed doors, no one can spy on them. And public approval of homosexuality gives the message that all is ok, sex has no function other than pleasure, no need to have children they are just a burden (births are rapidly falling amongst westerners). Sexually you can do whatever you like and you are 'free', economically you have to pay all your debts and taxes and so long as you do not rebel against the economic situation and you keep yourself busy fighting for your sexual freedom or trying to ful fill your desires all is ok. This is economic slavery to the state or the ruling elites who have engineered a slave system.

"Its belief in magic and witchcraft."

Despite your desire to make the world into nothing but matter, logic and reason, this whole way of looking at the world and constructing it, is becoming 'outmoded'. The world contains non logic, magic and mystery which your way of looking at the world just cannot admit. You have driven yourself into a cul de sac with no way out, the world is not disenchanted. Quantum Physics says all the matter we see and think it solid is actually made of mostly empty space with particles whizzing around at incredible speeds making it appear to be solid. And the human observer in any experiment, just by being present and observing affects the behaviour of the particles!

"Its abhorrence to any foreign practice, even if it doesn't interfere with a Muslim's belief system."

Such as?


"Its inherent opposition to democratic principles and freedom of expression."

Democracy does not work, it has been made into a type of unquestioned religion. In Britain 2011 just when it was fighting to establish democracy in the Arab world, they had riots by the populace! Why? Why are there people in Democratic Britain who felt it was ok to smash property, loot and in some cases do violence, murder and harm? Politicians are bought by the rich and they serve the rich. The banker bailouts prove this.

Freedom of expression does not exist, Democracy remains unquestioned, the banking system including its fractional reserve banking remains unquestioned. Taxation is theft, yet this remains unquestioned and anyone attempting to bring these subjects to the masses is marginalized and ridiculed.

"Its inability to allow Muslims to respectfully leave the faith for another belief system. Its intolerance for other belief systems in its midst. The various sects of Islam, all of whom try to outdo each other in their narrow-mindedness."

If you leave Islam it is your loss, you can embrace whatever new thing you want, leave the company of Muslims and go live where-ever you please and do what you want. Afterall why would you want to continue to live amongst people who follow an abhorrent religion?

[Abebpabeniemo]

so Peach, you leave Islam because you feel that Islam controls and forbids you from doing whatever you want, and now you feel liberated?

Which part of you is liberated? Your intellect? Or your desires?

If you say it is intellectually enlightening for you to leave Islam, that's just absurd as all the evidences point to Islam being the truth. All the signs of social upheavel are pointing to the coming of events which were told by the Beloved Prophet 1500 years ago. All the signs mentioned in the Quran are being discovered one by one by the humankind. And not even science can disprove it, especially when science itself is still is a moving goal and just relative in its nature.

Got a question for you. Since you said you studied and knowledgeable about Islam, I'm sure you've read about all the signs pertaining to the coming of Qiyamah (small and big). My question is, regardless about the signs are small or big, why didn't the events turn out differently from what was told by the Prophet ? There are myriads of paths for actions by the people from the generations of the Prophet to now, but why didn't the human actions take a different path from what was told to us by the Prophet ? It's easy for one event to turn out right from a "prediction", but to have a 10 out of 10 "predictions" to be right would have a much smaller probablity. And more so for 50/50.

If you say you feel fresh and liberated after leaving Islam since you can do whatever your desire/lust wants, well, Islam is supposed to control the human's desire or lusts. But do not be mistaken about "self liberation", as the real free man or woman is the ones who are free from their desire (materialistics, lusts, etc) for they can clearly see the reason why they are here in the first place. Those who can't will be drowned in the worldly wealth/desires. The ironic is, the deeper they are drowning, the more they will try to cling to their worldly wealths and desires.

Allah Knows Best.