[wrefrinny]

brother,

From the outset, it seems that the dynamics of your and my Masjid are different.

First of all, the waqf get abused in daytime too, so what are you going to do now? Close the masjid during daytime? Also, books are taken away during prayer times too. And what would a homeless person searching for money do with books of hadith and qur'an? This is no argument.

I was informing you about people in general who stayed in the Masjid in the past, whether homeless or not.

You are stating yourself that they don't pray so what are they going to do with Islamic books? Besides, these books are taken away during daytime too simply because people do not understand the rulings of waqf or it is not mentioned clearly that books are supposed to stay in the mosque.

I was telling you about the unfortunate situation of random, continuous events from the Masjid in my locality. All actions that I mentioned were not necessarily carried out only by the homeless or the same person/people.

You would wonder about that (if one's not making salah why take Deeni books?) but it's a reality where I live. That behavior usually comes from those with drug addictions who'd barter anything, even if it may be things stolen from the best places on earth, to satisfy their drug addictions.

So yeah, unfortunately the Masajid here have to be locked even during the day time, in between salahs or when no activity is taking place.

About breaking down sadaqa boxes. You simply take the money outside before the night they sleep. SIMPLE.

We have done that and continue to do that till this day but you know what? This is around the 3rd or 4th time where the sadaqah box has been ripped off the Masjid wall or stolen. We recently had a welder make a sadaqah box that is screwed into the Masjid floor. So if anyone wanted to stoop so low to steal it they'd have to use a car to pull out the box from the Masjid.

I am not saying you are supposed to sleep everyone and making it a camping place. But brothers who even PRAYED salah with us are turned down!! And even if they do not pray, why not let brothers talk to them first about the importance of prayer? Why kick them out immediately? Also, most of the mosques have rooms NEAR the mosque, like classrooms. Even in such rooms they are not allowed to sleep, where nothing can happen and nothing can be stolen!

How is that possible? What kind of sick attitude can a Muslim have to tell him to go to the church or let him sleep on the streets in the cold?

Tell me HOW please.

...Yes, that is a clear cut problem. Turning Muslims away from the Masajid to Churches is just crazy. Plus if a person who is a regular musalli in the Masjid desires to make itikaaf or is in need of a place to stay, and the Masjid property has vacant rooms somewhere, then why not?

Trying to look at the issue objectively, I see two problems. One from the Masjid administration and the other from the Muslim community itself.

1.Many times administrations do not know how to handle these situations of Muslims in need or, similar to example you just gave, need to be removed from their positions of administration because the lack of fulfilling their Islamic responsibility.

2.The Muslim community giving more importance to their own property and belongings than to the houses of Allah or needy Muslims by not opening the doors to their own homes in the first place and not giving to those in need from their own possessions.

[kranfid]

In my own community we have had instaces where homeless Muslims have done drugs in the Masjid when we used to have it open from Fajr to Isha, even between prayers. Furthermore, we had an individual attempt to steal the Sadaqah box but who was unable to do so because it was chained quite well. Since those incidents, our Masjid is open only 15 minutes before each prayer begins and for only 15 minutes after each one ends, excepting Jumah (where the Masjid is opened about an hour before and closed about an hour afterward, except during the winter when Asr comes in fairly early) and on Sundays during the time that they have weekend classes for kids.

However, despite the above, me and my family have opposed the closing of the Masjid between prayers and the Masjid Council's unwillingness to let homeless Muslims stay in the masjid. I am all for thinking of solutions to deal with issues like potential drug use, theft of property, etc. but I think that even while we are attempting to come up with solutions we shouldn't put a "freeze" on homeless or needy Muslims staying in the masjid temporarily when they really have nowhere else to go and there is no Muslim who is willing to take them into their own home (something that some people coming from some ethnic backgrounds are FAR MORE willing to do than others which is quite unfortunate) or put them up in a hotel or something of the sort.

There's something unsettling to me about turning someone away from the house of Allah.

[tactWeiccaf]

Brother Sunnistudent has mentioned some good points. The masjid collection box could be chained and no money should be kept on the premises. What is needed in the West is that instead of sending millions to our countries of origin to build another daruloom or another fancy masjid these resources should be used locally. We can then build plenty of shelters for the homeless and provide them with food and shelter etc. A dedicated place for this away from the masjid would be a good idea.

[ptmQqoxw]

Assalam alikum wa rahmat Allah,

The adminstration in our masjid is similar , very intolerant toward poor. Also I work with many new convert muslims in the prisons. often times brothers who learn about islam and brotherhood in islam from the books and ahadith they come for the first time with high expectation of experiencing brotherly community in the masjid. their skin color, tatoo and needy looks does not help the situation either. 90 percent of time that becomes the first and last time they visit the masjid, bangladeshi and paki brothers i find a lot more conscious of color and status then other muslim brothers
May Allah SWT help us it is all due to love of dunya
Wassalam

[greekbeast]

This is certainly a disturbing reality of living in the West: that masajid are run as private property of an organization with an exclusive membership, rather than the house of Allah for all humanity.

Sunni Student 786,
the circumstances surrounding your community masjid have been common in masajid in various other Muslim communities. One such solution was for the community to form a social services which purchased and ran a small house where homeless, ex convicts, and addicts might reside.
Incidently, the social services "resident house" in one Florida community was burnt down by a disgruntled transient who apparently didn't get along.
In another community, a Muslim brother who was being assisted lashed out and attacked a shaykh, my dear friend. He had diabetes and was elderly, but this 'brother' attacked him because he didn't want to be restricted from doing something on masjid property (eg.sell his products at the door of the masjid).

(the shaykh suffered a broken arm and the "brother" was arrested and sent to prison).



The reality in America is there are truly good, decent people in desperate conditions and are homeless.
And there are people struggling to do good but fall into bad things.
And then there are permanently transient people who have adopted a counterculture lifestyle which almost amounts to abandoning contemporary civilization, whether they are ill, or not.

For some years I worked as a paramedic part time which placed me in contact with this permanent transient population in Florida.
Many commute between northern cities during the summer down to Florida in the winter, where the wather is milder.
I met one who jumped on and rode a freight train from New York to Florida each year. Like in a Steinbeck novel.


This transient lifestyle is often seen as antisocial, anticivilizational. People don't normally hold jobs, don't maintain their health, don't usually recognize customs or even laws, and live in tents which can be moved at a moment's notice. Many suffer from mental illnesses and severe chronic health conditions, including infectious and contagious diseases. Governments are unable to effectively deal with these transient communities, as they often congregate and set up camps in vacant forested lots out of the way, but in access to the rest of society.

Muslim communities have to discern with whom they will deal and by which rules and how. Indeed, in Florida several masajid have been broken into and attempts were made to steal donations.

[tactWeiccaf]

brother Usama2 in my own experience masjids in the West are generally run in a better way than most muslim countries. In the muslim country that I'm in the imam cannot do anything and the masjid has zero activities. The imam is given a khutbah to read. The only activities the imam does is lead salah, read the khutbah on fridays (government prepares it and imam parrots it) and read some hadeeth from a book twice a week after Asr for 5 mins in arabic (which the majority don't understand). Compare this with http://www.eastlondonmosque.org.uk/events and notice the massive difference.

[greekbeast]

brother Usama2 in my own experience masjids in the West are generally run in a better way than most muslim countries. In the muslim country that I'm in the imam cannot do anything and the masjid has zero activities. The imam is given a khutbah to read. The only activities the imam does is lead salah, read the khutbah on fridays (government prepares it and imam parrots it) and read some hadeeth from a book twice a week after Asr for 5 mins in arabic (which the majority don't understand). Compare this with http://www.eastlondonmosque.org.uk/events and notice the massive difference.

You are correct, brother London786.
It is a sad state of static, of being frozen. Where is the vibrancy of the Islamic way of life?
This is how they stifle Islam here. Everyday my wife and I see new lows for Muslims here.

[yqpY4iw6]

And if they rob from us, we leave their affairs to Allah and if they have a drug habit, we pray that they are rehabilitated and enter jannah like we would pray for our own blood brother..

Um, no. If they rob from us we make sure they don't return to the mosque property and if so, the police will be called. And if they have a drug habit, they are to be excused, as our mosque doesnt tolerate drug use.

[kranfid]

Um, no. If they rob from us we make sure they don't return to the mosque property and if so, the police will be called. And if they have a drug habit, they are to be excused, as our mosque doesnt tolerate drug use.

Although your point is well-reasoned, there is a story that might be relevant to cite here. This story was told to us by our former Imam (of 7 years) who was from Alexandria, Egypt.

He was once serving as an Imam in a Masjid in Egypt. One night, either immediately after or just prior to a prayer, a well-known criminal tried to steal the Sadaqah box. He was almost successful and he had it in his grasp and was making his way out of the masjid when somebody noticed and summoned the rest of the masjid's attendees and they caught a hold of him. They wrestled the (unsuccessful) thief to the ground and collectively they engaged in a bout of beating and kicking him. In the middle of this, someone asked him, "What kind of person are you? The child of what kind of parent are you (i.e. "what kind of human") that you would stoop so low as to steal from the Masjid?" To which he replied, "Is this your house or the house of Allah?" They said "It is the house of Allah?" He then said, "If it is Allah's house, then these donations were always given to Allah, so what business of your's is it that I took this? Leave it between me and my Lord." When he said that, everyone immediately stopped and began to give the man Sadaqah from their pockets (not the box) that was far in excess of anything that could have been in the box. He refused the money saying that "I had repented from stealing from other human beings but when I found myself in need of money I felt it more proper to take from that which was given to my Lord than to outstretch my hand to another human, to steal or to beg from him and I still do not want your money."

After that incident, he came to be known among the most steadfast worshipers and attendees at the mosque and Allah made him repentance sincere (insha'allah).

The point of the story is not to say that the thief was correct in his actions but that sometimes they may look at their actions from a different perspective than we may perceive them and rather than being harsh with them, or assuming the worst of others because of them, let us not forget that the Masaajid are all for Allah and that as Allah is merciful to his creation, perhaps we should be so too.

Wa'salaam.

[patrycjakolekk]

Um, no. If they rob from us we make sure they don't return to the mosque property and if so, the police will be called. And if they have a drug habit, they are to be excused, as our mosque doesnt tolerate drug use.

If a homeless person tries to rob money put into the sadaqah box, then you may have reason to not let him stay overnight. But if a guy just walks in and automatically people start assuming he is a thief or a druggie, then this is wrong. And if in the end, it turns out that the brother was INDEED a thief, then Allah will deal with him as He Wills... I won't cry over the stolen money and neither should anyone else. To hear of brother's being turned down just on the basis that they MIGHT be criminals is not acceptable, especially since the person can walk down the road and sleep in a Church without any trouble or hassle. I don't want the Muslims to have to take help from kuffar when the Muslims have the resources to help them themselves

[space-on-s]

comments here blaming the masjid committee (and on other threads blaming commitee for other reasons) .. if you have a problem with the 'system' either (a) become a member of the masjid and then put your selves up for election to be on the Committee to deal wiht this issues and other issues or (b) start your own masjids/orgs to addrress the issues.

Stop whinging / bickering and blaming others ...

[space-on-s]

comments here blaming the masjid committee (and on other threads blaming commitee for other reasons) .. if you have a problem with the 'system' either (a) become a member of the masjid and then put your selves up for election to be on the Committee to deal wiht this issues and other issues or (b) start your own masjids/orgs to addrress the issues.

Stop whinging / bickering and blaming others ...

or (c) join/help a masjid/org that already proactively deals with these issues ..

[T1ivuQGS]

Stop whinging / bickering and blaming others ...

its not about that...

its about highlighting a need and a problem in our community. the 'need' are those muslims that need help and have no where else to turn to, and the 'problem' are those muslims who are in control of the resources to help those in need, but will not allow for these resources to be used which belong to the muslim community in the first place.

i understand what you are saying, that instead of talking get out there and do something. but opening your own masjid is a massive leap. instead we can take small steps and and make people aware of the situation that we have on our hands where muslims are turned away by their own brothers and told to get help from the church!

[BEKREUNSEPBERw]

given the monstrous amount of widescreen tv's and otehr useless junk taht i see in most muslim houses, why do we not have the funds to set up a hostel for people to stay in like the christians have salvation army? pure wahan

[CIAFreeAgent]

.....but opening your own masjid is a massive leap. One needn't start a new masjid to do a charitable deed, if there are already many around in the community. Get involved. In more ways than just turning up at the doors and demanding change. Volunteer, work discreetly behind the scenes without feeling the need for recognition or appreciation, help out in any way you can- whether that be washing the towels, mopping the floor, cleaning the urine from the toilet seats, tidying the shoes or helping out at events and programmes. Once we increase our participation in these ways, we have more appreciation for the way a masjid works and the things that need to taken into consideration. It is very easy to criticise from the sidelines.

Yes, I'm the first to admit that many committees get it wrong and many of them see their position on the board as position of power, but that means the community just needs to work harder to make the masjid and the environment a better and more welcoming place.

Next time someone is turned away from the masjid, whether that's a homeless person, a traveller, someone coming from far-away lands to raise money for a madrasah/hospital/orphanage etc, make up for the lack of compassion shown by offering them a nightcap at your own home. Give them a meal, a gift of money and drive them yourself to their next destination.

[BEKREUNSEPBERw]

its difficult to put brothers up in a mosque in the wesy because there are a hige number of people who would abuse it and you woudl end up with an unclean mosque, drugs, alcohol, thefts etc, it would lead to a lot of problems.

I dont see why muslims arent making charities speicifically to aid teh homeless. Prob your too busy disssing salafis.

Speaking of salafis:

http://www.iwantjannah.org/#/homeless/4542398458

looks like they arent busy smashing you guys as they are too busy with soup kitchens for the homeless. How much charity work are YOU doing? When there is one finger pointing at someone else tehre are three fingers pointing back at you

[T1ivuQGS]

given the monstrous amount of widescreen tv's and otehr useless junk taht i see in most muslim houses, why do we not have the funds to set up a hostel for people to stay in like the christians have salvation army? pure wahan

very true.

[T1ivuQGS]

I dont see why muslims arent making charities speicifically to aid teh homeless. Prob your too busy disssing salafis.

are you serious?

dont salafis diss deobandis?

dont barelvis diss deobandis?

dont deobandis diss barelvis?

dont salafis diss barelvis?

etc etc etc?

so why do you keep having a go at deobandis? everyone does it.

[BEKREUNSEPBERw]

if i hear them i tell them the same thing "perhaps you are bored of saving the youth from apostacy and gangs and so you fealt that backbiting is more interesting". I regularly defend deobandis and have learned many of the hanafi evidences to spread awareness among salafis of the stregnth of their daleel on fiqh issue etc

but this is a majority deobandi forum

[Sadsidioribre]

Br. Dawud, with all due respect, why do you have to make every single thread about Salafis and Deobandis? What next? We will have a discussion about global warming, and you'll say: "The glaciers are melting at an unprecedented rate, yet all you Deobandis can do is bash Salafis." I agree with your message of unity 100%, but the way you go about doing it tends to really turn people off.