[BrodiKennedy]

Some months ago I had a short visit to London. I requested my relative to send me someone
to pick me up from the airport.

Well, a bearded man with sunnah dress came .

I got into his car and started chatting. I was really impressed by the man's sunnah dress.

During the conversation , I have discovered that the man is the son of a Mufti who is well-known to me.

He then told me that he graduated from a madrasah in the UK. In the morning he works as a taxi-driver. Then,
after zohr prayer, he goes to a mosque where he works as an Islamic teacher.

I was wondering why he was doing taxi driving. I am not a snob. I was just thinking why an Islamic scholar would
waste his precious time in taxi-driving.

His teaching job should earn enough money for a decent living in the UK. Oh !! May be , he need to pay some debt or he has some other troubles. So, he needs to work as a part-time taxi driving temporarily. Anyway , I forgot the incident.

Recently, my wife told me that one family living in the UK has some good marriage-aged girls. Their
eldest daughter was married to a Mawlana who teaches in a maktab ( or may be madarash ) in Birmingham. However, the salary is quite low.
So, they want to find a non-Mawlana bridegroom for their second-eldest daughter.


This news woke me up and reminded me of the earlier incident. I am now wondering again why the Muslim society in the UK
can not respect their Islamic teachers or madrasah graduates by offering decent salaries.

Do you know the reason ?

[T1ivuQGS]

its not due to just one reason, but will be due to many different type of reasons.

[BrodiKennedy]

its not due to just one reason, but will be due to many different type of reasons.

Such as ?

[dexterljohnthefinanceguy]

asalamolikum
if i were aalim, i dont accept any financial favour for my islamic services. but i let my reward for akhra. and for my wordly necessities, i dont think there is some guilt in driving taxi. AbuBakar RA when he was choosen Chalipah, he do business, but Umar RA and other muslism says, that will cause harm in muslims collective affairs as u r now ameer. so they arrange montly stipend for him from baat-ul-maal. But abubakar RA return all that money while he was dying by selling his some property (i think so).
its just my personal view. and Allah SWT knows the best.

[tactWeiccaf]

This unfortunate situation is not just limited to the UK but many other countries. However it is a lengthy topic. There are 2 ways of looking at it.

1. Ulema should not accept any money for islamic related duties. The problem with this is that ulema spend at least 7+ years studying and maybe 10+ years if you include hifz. If a person becomes an alim say starts at the age of 16 (let us assume that he does hifz before 16 so starts hifz at 12). So the earliest the alim graduates is the age of 23. Thereafter we are telling the alim to work full time but he has no qualifications/experience? What kind of religious services will he be able to provide? How about marriage? This way the alim is left working long hours as a taxi driver. This is just something to think about.

2. Second scenario is the community makes the maulana profession a good profession with a decent wage and thus the maulnaa can devote all his time to studying, teaching islam etc.

This is a major major problem these days.

The problem is tigerkhan is that if we decide to not take any money for islamic services the maulana will not be able to do ANY service of deen as he is busy working long hours. Even if we assume the alim is a zahid the cost of living is too high in the west.

All in all it's a major problem.

[dexterljohnthefinanceguy]

one good hope is that alhumdullaih i see in pakistan, now boys of very well setteled families are going to mudrassa and bcming aalim and ahd such ppl if they have zuhud need to do nothing. one big example is Molana Tariq Jameel sb and many othres. my younger bro is also in mudrassa but Alhumdulliah we dont have any mind for him to take any stipend for islamic service after completing his aalim course.

[BrodiKennedy]

one good hope is that alhumdullaih i see in pakistan, now boys of very well setteled families are going to mudrassa and bcming aalim and ahd such ppl if they have zuhud need to do nothing. one big example is Molana Tariq Jameel sb and many othres. my younger bro is also in mudrassa but Alhumdulliah we dont have any mind for him to take any stipend for islamic service after completing his aalim course.

So, you mean that only boys from rich families should take the risk of becoming mawlanas ??????
Because, even if the society will not pay them a good salary, they can still maintain a decent standard due to the support from the family .
Am I right ?

[dexterljohnthefinanceguy]

there was diffrence in islamic education system of now a days and in salaf. ilum was taught to upper class of society that time and thsoe who have thrist for it. but now a days rich families dont like their child to bcm aalim but mostly a person who seems to be not much skilled to get successful into professional career was sent into mudrassa. so i am not saying that poor should not bcm aalim but the good things is the skilled and rich children should be sent into mudrassa so that their abalities used for the uprising od islam.

[PPActionnGuys]

I think there was another thread on the same issue please search for that and read through. I dont think there was any bright idea or final conclusion on that thread either.

[seooptiman]

So, you mean that only boys from rich families should take the risk of becoming mawlanas ??????
Because, even if the society will not pay them a good salary, they can still maintain a decent standard due to the support from the family .
Am I right ?

I will try to provide a different perspective inshaAllah.

I work in the finance sector and I can tell you that you will have absolutely no time for deeni activities in such a field. You will also be facing a lot a prejudice at work (which will be almost invisible behind the smokescreen of Diversity).

On the other hand, black cab Taxi drivers can earn up to £50,000 p.a. which is much higher than the average London salary. If they choose not to disclose it, it will all be tax free. They have the luxury to stop working any time and go off anywhere for months.

In fact, I know a brother who chose not to go for a Masters at Oxford and a graduate offer from KPMG. Instead he went back to Pakistan to study at Maulana Tariq Jameel's madrasa. His plan is to spend 6 months in London (make money) and study in Pakistan for 6 months (spend money). In fact, he is on this forum

If I am honest, for a true Talib ul 'Ilm - there is perhaps no better arrangement. Once you are shackled by your career, that's the end of your quest (maybe a bit over dramatic but it's true in 90% of cases).

[BrodiKennedy]

I will try to provide a different perspective inshaAllah.

I work in the finance sector and I can tell you that you will have absolutely no time for deeni activities in such a field. You will also be facing a lot a prejudice at work (which will be almost invisible behind the smokescreen of Diversity).

On the other hand, black cab Taxi drivers can earn up to £50,000 p.a. which is much higher than the average London salary. If they choose not to disclose it, it will all be tax free. They have the luxury to stop working any time and go off anywhere for months.

In fact, I know a brother who chose not to go for a Masters at Oxford and a graduate offer from KPMG. Instead he went back to Pakistan to study at Maulana Tariq Jameel's madrasa. His plan is to spend 6 months in London (make money) and study in Pakistan for 6 months (spend money). In fact, he is on this forum

If I am honest, for a true Talib ul 'Ilm - there is perhaps no better arrangement. Once you are shackled by your career, that's the end of your quest (maybe a bit over dramatic but it's true in 90% of cases).

I want to give you another perspective on this issue. Every culture and society has a tendency to respect some professions while belittling some other professions.
This issue of respect teaches the young generation which profession they should pursue. If a pop singer or film actress is highly respected , every kid will like to
be film actors and this will surely bring the demise of that society or culture within few decades.

What is the social prestige of a taxi driver in a Muslim society ? If it is bad , how can you expect a mother or father to encourage his boys to become a Mawlana plus taxi driver ?

If talented boys are discouraged to become Islamic scholars , how do you expect an Islamic revival in the Muslim countries ?? This may be the reason why you
get charismatic secular leaders in Muslim countries.

[seooptiman]

I want to give you another perspective on this issue. Every culture and society has a tendency to respect some professions while belittling some other professions.
This issue of respect teaches the young generation which profession they should pursue. If a pop singer or film actress is highly respected , every kid will like to
be film actors and this will surely bring the demise of that society or culture within few decades.

What is the social prestige of a taxi driver in a Muslim society ? If it is bad , how can you expect a mother or father to encourage his boys to become a Mawlana plus taxi driver ?

If talented boys are discouraged to become Islamic scholars , how do you expect an Islamic revival in the Muslim countries ?? This may be the reason why you
get charismatic secular leaders in Muslim countries.

Salaam I know where you are coming from as I know my parents would flip if I said "I want to become a Taxi driver".

But this is a shortcoming in our community. Until we place Knowledge of Quran and Sunnah above mere professions, Maulanas will never be respected. A fundamental attitude change is needed.

A Phd in the sight of Allah does not mean anything, unless it is used for the service of the deen.

[glagoliska]

Salaam I know where you are coming from as I know my parents would flip if I said "I want to become a Taxi driver".

But this is a shortcoming in our community. Until we place Knowledge of Quran and Sunnah above mere professions, Maulanas will never be respected. A fundamental attitude change is needed.

A Phd in the sight of Allah does not mean anything, unless it is used for the service of the deen.

You have hit the nail . This thread has touched my heart. So , I want to add some info from my own experience.
I think, the victims of this belittling attitude towards Mawlana has affected greatly the activists of Tabligh Jamat. I mean, I have seen a family where the father is a high ranking govt official in my native country. He became religious and sent his sons to madarasah. They became Hafiz and Mawlanas in due time. But now what they are doing ? One son is doing full time taxi driving in the UK . But, in Ramadan he acts as an Hafiz . Another son is now working in a pizza shop in the UK.However, at least , one son is working as an Imam at a mosque near London.

And look at the cousins of these mawlanas -- all went for secular education. And earning good salaries . But, now this TJ family needs to hide the job status of their sons from the rest of the extended families !!!

This is just only one example. You can see many examples of TJ brothers who were doctors , engineers and university teachers. These brothers sacrificed a lot
to revive the Deen and expected their sons to do the same. But, the ugly reality has crashed their dream (or utopia ! ). How can you expect a doctor TJ guy to tell his relatives that his madrasah-graduated son is working in a pizza shop !!!

[aLZ9zKsO]

You have hit the nail . This thread has touched my heart. So , I want to add some info from my own experience.
I think, the victims of this belittling attitude towards Mawlana has affected greatly the activists of Tabligh Jamat. I mean, I have seen a family where the father is a high ranking govt official in my native country. He became religious and sent his sons to madarasah. They became Hafiz and Mawlanas in due time. But now what they are doing ? One son is doing full time taxi driving in the UK . But, in Ramadan he acts as an Hafiz . Another son is now working in a pizza shop in the UK.However, at least , one son is working as an Imam at a mosque near London.

And look at the cousins of these mawlanas -- all went for secular education. And earning good salaries . But, now this TJ family needs to hide the job status of their sons from the rest of the extended families !!!

This is just only one example. You can see many examples of TJ brothers who were doctors , engineers and university teachers. These brothers sacrificed a lot
to revive the Deen and expected their sons to do the same. But, the ugly reality has crashed their dream (or utopia ! ). How can you expect a doctor TJ guy to tell his relatives that his madrasah-graduated son is working in a pizza shop !!!

This is UK. My husband is an engineer and believe me, his bring home money is far less than a taxi driver ( don't look at per anum before tax and NI). Don't belittle taxi driver job. Plus it's easy for them to go for jamaah prayer in the masjeed. What a plenty reward for them in hereafter than people who stuck at the office and operation room and cannot attend 5 times jamaah prayer in the masjeed.

[Ruidselisse]

This is UK. My husband is an engineer and believe me, his bring home money is far less than a taxi driver ( don't look at per anum before tax and NI). Don't belittle taxi driver job. Plus it's easy for them to go for jamaah prayer in the masjeed. What a plenty reward for them in hereafter than people who stuck at the office and operation room and cannot attend 5 times jamaah prayer in the masjeed.

People shouldn't belittle any job so what if a scholar is a taxi driver or a watchmaker that doesn't say anything about a persons intellectual abilities or his dignity.
Mostly Pakistani's Afghani's and other Hindu influenced cultures think you are at the top when you are a doctor and they will look down on people with a more humble job.

[kranfid]

...
Mostly Pakistani's Afghani's and other Hindu influenced cultures think you are at the top when you are a doctor and they will look down on people with a more humble job.

Somalis, Ethiopians, Senegalese, Yemenis, Egyptians, Sudanese, Moroccans, Palestinians, and Iraqis, from my personal experiences, feel the same way (generally).

[kranfid]

.... I am now wondering again why the Muslim society in the UK
can not respect their Islamic teachers or madrasah graduates by offering decent salaries.

...

What do you consider to be a decent salary? When answering, please be more specific than simply saying that they shouldn't have to work as taxi-drivers.

[Percocetti]

unfortunately those that have this mentality that deeni education = uneducated person...and not financially able to support family

are also the same people who if they see a maulana doing well for himself, he may drive a nice car...have a nice house...then these people will be the same who will go around saying these maulanas are robbing the community...they take money for teaching the deen..they have used the deen as a money making scam etc etc

these people also think that a secular degree is everything and boast about their son who has an office job even though that son makes far less than a taxi driver or a bus driver in London!

[T1ivuQGS]

i dont have an opinion on this topic as i have conflicting views. here are some of my observations....

1. there are many people who serve the deen one way or another, for example people who spend a lot of time with tabligh jamaat, people who volunteer for charities, people who take part in the 'other effort'. all of these people also have family that they need to look after and homes to run, yet they find time to serve the deen for free and spend their own money in the path and dont expect any handouts from anyone for serving the deen. they will look after their family and homes using their own money which they have earned themselves.

2. it is possible to live comfortably on a low wage if a person lives an austere life based on the sunnah and does not spend his money on vain and haram things. a person only needs 4 walls and a roof over their head, but instead they want to have a nice house in a middle-class neighbourhood, with a nice driveway, landscaped garden, mod-cons in the kitchen, leather sofas, leather beds, latest cable or satellite TV, latest wafer thin TV with blueray etc etc.....people are not happy to have a simple inexpensive car or even not have a car at all, instead they want a new car with tinted windows, nice wheels, leather seats, air con, etc. expensive branded clothing, latest iphone, ipad, isomething else etc ect ect you know what im getting at....

i know a tablighi brother who has been going in jamaat ever since i can remember since i was a little kid. i have been to his home many times. he lives a very simple life. he does not make much money but still he has enough to spend on his jamaat activities and for going for hajj and umrah every year with his wife....every year!!!

3. there are just too many ulama being churned out through the madrasas (in the UK at least) that there just isnt enough work for them to put them on a salary and give them a full time position. if they were being paid for a full time position then how would they get utilised? how would the money given to them by the mosque be put to good use? they cant be paid for the sake of being paid. they need to earn their wage or salary........and to be honest, a lot of them would not be value for money! at least in the UK, the ulama that are being churned do not do justice to the title of ulama. why should they get paid top notch when they spent their 7 years of studying on the streets of manchester smoking sheesha!

4. maybe every community (not every mosque as in some towns there are upto 5 mosques in just one small community) should have one full time paid alim who has experience and excellent ilm and piety, education, knowledge of the local language, social skills etc who the community can go to for their deeni needs. he should treat his position as he would any job and the employer should treat him like any employee. give him a good salary, a place to work from like an office, assistants if required, etc....but at the same time he should work hard to benefit and serve the community and be available to carry out his duties on time and professionally.

[Beerinkol]

Nice topic....very interesting arguments.