[ranndomderr]

I've read it yes i dont see the need to assume things about the Ikhwan what's up with the derogatory comment there's nothing wrong with my intellectual abilities don't worry and you aren't as clever as you think either focus on your own mess (Pakistan/India) first before you criticize Misr.

hmmm,
sounds little bit more nationalistic then it should be, may be.. ?
Why you are so touched? .... and I dont think any here was attacking your country.
This over-sensitive attitude is so typical for us muslims, I dont know why it is so, as we would be afraid of bottom naked truth.
We must to get any information wrapped into softness, but there is not enough softness - person can do utmost best and be gentle, still that is not enough
w alikum assalam

[b3JOkwXL]

one of the diseases currently afflicting the ummah is the disease of being too easy to criticise and too difficult to dn anything else besides sit on your lazy backsides and do more criticising.

If you look at any successful politicaql movement in history, it started off by uniting the people. UNity of the arabian peninsular. Unity of mongolia. american civil war. salahuddin. europes union followed by muslim explusion from spain and the renaisance of europe. and the list goes on. ANy successful movement started off by sorting their own house out first. Whenever muslims were destoryed, the destoryers somehow started to become muslim and that has been taking place from the time of the quraysh to the western onslaught against islam today.

so our focus should be 2: 1 dawah in the western lands 2 sort our house out and bring unity and power to the muslims.

1 dawah is clear cut and staright forward

part 2 is the real meaty issue that needs to be looked into, political unity and stergnth.



My advice, at the very least, stop criticising otehr people who are making efforts and instead focus on the efforts you see as most beenficial. If you dont like tablighee jama'aats, dont aid them, but dont waste time criticising them. If you dont like the gulfs efforts, leave them alone and foicus your efforts on malaysia or turkey or indonesia or pakistan or north africa or wherever you feel can be supported and holds promise and potential. if you disagree with the gradual approach taken in some muslim lands currently, dont support it but dont sit there criticising them.

My advice, stop criticising people and focus on whats important, restoring power to the ummah. People are finding it so easy to criticise otehr muslims these days when their own achievements are zero. "Speaking out" doesnt really constitute as restoring izza to the ummah unless there is a clear benefit. people have a ridiculously high standard by which they judge everyon else, they will settle for nothing but a perfect khilafah and as a result they become people who do nothing but criticise and do nothing contructive. We need unity so if you wont aid the muslim lands or groups, at least dont waste your time attacking them.

The muslim groups in north africa are tryiong to do something so leave them alone and ask yourself what are YOU doing for this ummah that is any better? This is not directed at anyone specifically but ive noticed this in general that every attacks saudi and attacks ikhwanal muslimeen and attacks turkeys president etc because they arent perfect, what they dont realise is that an imperfect effort that is united and has our full support is better than some theoreticaly perfect idea that a few people hold and have zero ability to implemnent.

just try to be constructive and let people make their efforts, find the place where your most happy to contribute and do that inshAllah and leave other muslims to do their work in their way

[Triiooman]

Shalom,

I dont think we are supposed to force people to follow Islam. At the same time, this does not mean that we have to allow WHATEVER they come up with. There should be moderation and limits.

Peace
-------------- Student of Allah

[ClapekDodki]

Whenever muslims were destoryed, the destoryers somehow started to become muslim and that has been taking place from the time of the quraysh to the western onslaught against islam today.

There is a relevant point made by Mufti Taqi Usmani Sahab(DB) at, I think, two places in his travelogues. He attributes this observation to his father Mufti Muhammed Shafi Sahab (RA). Muft Shafi Sahab (RA) said that whenever you see non-Muslims prospering then they must be doing something Islamic for the falsehood does not have the property of prospering. So whenever you see sucess in a society then some elements of truth are being implemented there.

[b3JOkwXL]

There is a relevant point made by Mufti Taqi Usmani Sahab(DB) at, I think, two places in his travelogues. He attributes this observation to his father Mufti Muhammed Shafi Sahab (RA). Muft Shafi Sahab (RA) said that whenever you see non-Muslims prospering then they must be doing something Islamic for the falsehood does not have the property of prospering. So whenever you see sucess in a society then some elements of truth are being implemented there.

did u ever realise whenever the muslims got militarily defeated our enemies ended up accepting islam? Mongols became muslims. Turks. Quraish. Now europeans too. it seems whoever attacks islam ends up becoming muslim

[ClapekDodki]

did u ever realise whenever the muslims got militarily defeated our enemies ended up accepting islam? Mongols became muslims. Turks. Quraish. Now europeans too. it seems whoever attacks islam ends up becoming muslim

I shall love if the Americans accept Islam but I am bit unenthusiastic about getting attacked by a would be Muslim.

(And yes we discuss such curiosities often.)

[b3JOkwXL]

I shall love if the Americans accept Islam but I am bit unenthusiastic about getting attacked by a would be Muslim.

(And yes we discuss such curiosities often.)

its no different to the situations of the mongols who ransacked the ummah and demolished the muslim lands and then accepted islam. Obviously we dont reat tehm as muslims until they take shahada but alhamdulillah islam is growing in europe and the west in general so inshallah we need to support this effort with time, money, wealth skills etc

[ClapekDodki]

Russian too must be in the queue because of the Afghanistan and before that the annexation of Central Asian countries.

[b3JOkwXL]

russia is about 15% muslim alhamdulillah and the muslims have about 7 or 8 kids and the russians have one child maximum and die very early:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_i...a#Demographics

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005...-muslim-russia


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia

[b3JOkwXL]

http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08...lam-to-russia/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CK_zS9mAvo

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4177312.stm

http://www.asiantribune.com/index.php?q=node/211

[ClapekDodki]

http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08...lam-to-russia/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CK_zS9mAvo

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4177312.stm

http://www.asiantribune.com/index.php?q=node/211

Out of these only the third one follows the Tatar theory and in that case too there is use of force.
And another thing - has nothing happened after 2005 -2006?

[alenbarbaf]

I've read it yes i dont see the need to assume things about the Ikhwan what's up with the derogatory comment there's nothing wrong with my intellectual abilities don't worry and you aren't as clever as you think either focus on your own mess (Pakistan/India) first before you criticize Misr.

Stop drowning in that nationalistic bilge man and stop crying Misr, Misr, Misr...Its sickening.

[alenbarbaf]

As brother Beale says that gradual implementation of Shariah should not discourage us and Dr Abu Tamim should have made consideration for that. Some how we have not reached the required level of maturity to handle our problems. One obvious thing to do is not to start fighting with each other. Our western brothers manage it better than the rest of us. If they were only slightly larger in number the we shall be reduced to mere onlookers. I kid you not.

Sidi Maripat, are you saying that the gradual implementation of Shariah allows for selling alcohol and prostitution in Muslim countries like Misr, Misr, Misr, Mighty Misr?

[ClapekDodki]

Sidi Maripat, are you saying that the gradual implementation of Shariah allows for selling alcohol and prostitution in Muslim countries like Misr, Misr, Misr, Mighty Misr?

I hereby declare that Shariah does not allow for selling of alcohol and selling of human body.
Oh, you were talking about gradual implementation? That is left as an exercise.
On the serious note I really do not know the solution to the ground reality. And I accept that the question can not be ignored because some decision has to be taken. They are taking some decisions and fingers can be pointed. So again I shall admit that armchair activism has its limitations and reality demands real actions and it is demanding right now. Like many of others, I fear it might be most of the others, I too came here to get an idea about the solution. The same question was debated by very knowledgeable brothers in the Ron Paul thread and my Friday forenoon has been eaten up by thread. There were lots of ideas exchanged but unfortunately I can not say that I came out with an answer to real life problems. May be we can change the questions. What should the Egyptians do? Who should the American Muslims vote for? How should the business and governance be conducted in UK?
Wassalam

[patrycjakolekk]

Is there not a way that the Egyptians could just seize the wealth of Husni Mubarak and use that to help the country instead of allowing alcohol, nudity, etc on their beaches?

[alenbarbaf]

Is there not a way that the Egyptians could just seize the wealth of Husni Mubarak and use that to help the country instead of allowing alcohol, nudity, etc on their beaches?

grrrr...if i could get my hands on that husni manhoos........

[Ruidselisse]

hmmm,
sounds little bit more nationalistic then it should be, may be.. ?
Why you are so touched? .... and I dont think any here was attacking your country.
This over-sensitive attitude is so typical for us muslims, I dont know why it is so, as we would be afraid of bottom naked truth.
We must to get any information wrapped into softness, but there is not enough softness - person can do utmost best and be gentle, still that is not enough
w alikum assalam

It has nothing to do with nationalism it has everything to do with Pakistani arrogance they will never hesitate to attack and criticize Arab countries but when it comes to their own country they think it's paradise on earth wich is plain stupidity because Pakistan is just a client state of the USA it's far worse than any Arab country so people should look at their own mess first before they criticize people who had the courage to stand up against their Pharaoh i wonder when Pakistani's will rise up against their beloved Zardari who is a secularist and a shi'ite.

[greekbeast]

I hereby declare that Shariah does not allow for selling of alcohol and selling of human body.
Oh, you were talking about gradual implementation? That is left as an exercise.
On the serious note I really do not know the solution to the ground reality. And I accept that the question can not be ignored because some decision has to be taken. They are taking some decisions and fingers can be pointed. So again I shall admit that armchair activism has its limitations and reality demands real actions and it is demanding right now. Like many of others, I fear it might be most of the others, I too came here to get an idea about the solution. The same question was debated by very knowledgeable brothers in the Ron Paul thread and my Friday forenoon has been eaten up by thread. There were lots of ideas exchanged but unfortunately I can not say that I came out with an answer to real life problems. May be we can change the questions. What should the Egyptians do? Who should the American Muslims vote for? How should the business and governance be conducted in UK?
Wassalam

Dear respected brother,
what else do we believers have except holding to the principles of the Deen of Allah?
This is what the Prophet (saaw) did in Makka- hold to the principle and integrity of Islam and work towards gaining full political authority, not partial, not shared power, so Sovereignty resides solely with Allah.
That meant no compromising, or partial implementation to satisfy the whims of our enemies.

Remember the request of the Quraishi leaders? Rule by Islam for a year, then rule by jahili for a year, or some variation?

TMQ 5:47-49:

And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge/rule [fahkum] between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. (48)

So judge/rule between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers. (49)

Those who hold the power in Muslim countries are enemies of Islam. They are evil-livers, hypocrites who's likeness is described here.

5:50-52
Is it a judgment of the time of (pagan) ignorance that they are seeking? Who is better than Allah for judgment to a people who have certainty (in their belief)? (50)
O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. (51)
And thou seest those in whose heart is a disease race toward them, saying: We fear lest a change of fortune befall us. And it may happen that Allah will vouchsafe (unto thee) the victory, or a commandment from His presence. Then will they repent them of their secret thoughts. (52)

In the end, the kufar WANT us to compromise so they can avoid submission to Allah, to avoid accountability for their deeds and to retain a degree of impunity and power. The secularists from our midsts cannot be trusted, as they are "diseased". They have no allegiance to us believers, and Allah has informed us of them.

Thus, having partial power is not sufficient, because it causes us to compromise Islam, to succumb to the same traps and dead-ends which the kufar have set up for the Mubaraks, the Ben Alis, the Asad's, et al.

There is no way to gradually reimplement Islam to the point of fulfilling our duty to Allah. There is no smooth gradual incline. The Prophet (saaw) exemplified the path as steep- 7 years of embargoes, 10 years of torture, murder, harassment, lies- the same if not more difficult than previous generations.

TTMQ27:2.3:
Do men imagine that they will be left (at ease) because they say, We believe, and will not be tested with affliction? (2)

Lo! We tested those who were before them. Thus Allah knoweth those who are sincere, and knoweth those who feign. (3)

[ClapekDodki]

Dear respected brother,
what else do we believers have except holding to the principles of the Deen of Allah?
This is what the Prophet (saaw) did in Makka- hold to the principle and integrity of Islam and work towards gaining full political authority, not partial, not shared power, so Sovereignty resides solely with Allah.
That meant no compromising, or partial implementation to satisfy the whims of our enemies.

Remember the request of the Quraishi leaders? Rule by Islam for a year, then rule by jahili for a year, or some variation?

TMQ 5:47-49:

And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge/rule [fahkum] between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. (48)

So judge/rule between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers. (49)

Those who hold the power in Muslim countries are enemies of Islam. They are evil-livers, hypocrites who's likeness is described here.

5:50-52
Is it a judgment of the time of (pagan) ignorance that they are seeking? Who is better than Allah for judgment to a people who have certainty (in their belief)? (50)
O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. (51)
And thou seest those in whose heart is a disease race toward them, saying: We fear lest a change of fortune befall us. And it may happen that Allah will vouchsafe (unto thee) the victory, or a commandment from His presence. Then will they repent them of their secret thoughts. (52)

In the end, the kufar WANT us to compromise so they can avoid submission to Allah, to avoid accountability for their deeds and to retain a degree of impunity and power. The secularists from our midsts cannot be trusted, as they are "diseased". They have no allegiance to us believers, and Allah has informed us of them.

Thus, having partial power is not sufficient, because it causes us to compromise Islam, to succumb to the same traps and dead-ends which the kufar have set up for the Mubaraks, the Ben Alis, the Asad's, et al.

There is no way to gradually reimplement Islam to the point of fulfilling our duty to Allah. There is no smooth gradual incline. The Prophet (saaw) exemplified the path as steep- 7 years of embargoes, 10 years of torture, murder, harassment, lies- the same if not more difficult than previous generations.

TTMQ27:2.3:
Do men imagine that they will be left (at ease) because they say, We believe, and will not be tested with affliction? (2)

Lo! We tested those who were before them. Thus Allah knoweth those who are sincere, and knoweth those who feign. (3)

O no brother Usama - just when I was enjoying, like a student, the wisdom flowing in the Ron Paul thread you expect me to make contributions on the similar topics? Very unfair, very unfair.

Even in my keyboard activities I try to avoid controversies. And then I also strive to keep in touch with the express reality. This reality is what you are insisting upon. I do not remember whether I have asserted it earlier or not but it had come to my mind many times and I'll state it again even if it is a repetition. If the Shoura decides, thinking of an imaginary situation, that we shall not adopt the gradual approach but we shall implement the full fledged Shariah in a go then I shall very meekly submit myself to the Mashwirah. I have my opinion but that is not something which is very valuable - opinions are most worthless things that we have.

Coming back to the reality as it is unfolding around us now. Parvez Musharraf asserted that Israel is a reality that Muslims should accept. Now there is this historical fact that before 1948 Israel was not there and the retreating British thought it as good parting shot to leave a long lasting reminder of their divide and rule strategy. And then the whole western world has been nurturing the Zionist experiment at the expanse of Muslims. Now when we see as to who is making these noses we are surprised to learn that it is a person who had lead till very short while ago the most sophisticated Muslim Army. What a let down. What happened to Syed Ahmed Shaheed in Balakot also forces one to think as to what went wrong. In spite of it being an old incidence it still leaves lots of unexplained things. We have already discussed the FIS assertion and the military action. It was heart warming to hear the news that Rajab Tayyab Erdughan is taking the former Army Chief to court. This certainly will send a loud and clear message to those adventurous soldiers who get easily manipulated by the CIA money to do damage to the interests of Ummah. It is also true that in this time when the detractors of Islam and Muslims are busy in trying to figure out ways out of their recession and depression then it might be the right time to implement those laws in our life that we have been deferring for so long - waiting for the right time. Now might be the right time. But again the lessons of Balakot and Lal Masjid pop up their head. Wallaualam.

[alenbarbaf]

It has nothing to do with nationalism it has everything to do with Pakistani arrogance they will never hesitate to attack and criticize Arab countries but when it comes to their own country they think it's paradise on earth wich is plain stupidity because Pakistan is just a client state of the USA it's far worse than any Arab country so people should look at their own mess first before they criticize people who had the courage to stand up against their Pharaoh i wonder when Pakistani's will rise up against their beloved Zardari who is a secularist and a shi'ite.

sigh.....