[repldoinfo]

My point is instead of forcing people to live by fiqhi rules derived long ago and make people's lives difficult by letting them harassed by corrupt law enforcement officials as demanded by 'islamic parties' they dont concentrate on welfare.
These days women are getting educated and increasing participating in the public sphere, but traditional fiqh rulings seem to almost treat them like children who dont know what is right for them.

[freeringsf]

My point is instead of forcing people to live by fiqhi rules derived long ago and make people's lives difficult by letting them harassed by corrupt law enforcement officials as demanded by 'islamic parties' they dont concentrate on welfare.
These days women are getting educated and increasing participating in the public sphere, but traditional fiqh rulings seem to almost treat them like children who dont know what is right for them.

ok can you give me an example of a ruling from traditional fiqh or the 'fiqh derived long ago' that you find is incorrect.
please specify fqih rulings on women education and fiqh rulings that 'make people's lives difficult'

quote directly from the source you get the rulings from sha Allah.

[nTDsD0aU]

Islamic state based on antique fiqh is a fantasy and we should instead concentrate on improving the life of people

If what you mean by that is 'the Shari'ah is outdated and not suitable for today,' then you need to re-take your shahadah.

[freeringsf]

If what you mean by that is 'the Shari'ah is outdated and not suitable for today,' then you need to re-take your shahadah.

let him give his proof

[nTDsD0aU]

let him give his proof

I am not interested in his proof. I'm just stating a fact. If that is what he means, then there is no disagreement among any jurist concerning it.

[freeringsf]

I am not interested in his proof.

well i am

[repldoinfo]

I will give you specific examples :
* Imrana case Google for it
Imrana accused her father in law of raping her , the ulema ruled she had been automatically been divorced for having a physical relationship with her father in law.
Her father-in-law Ali Muhammed raped Imrana Noor Elahi, mother of five children and resident of Charthawal town of Muzaffarnagar district in western state of Uttar Pradesh allegedly on June 4. The Islamic seminary Darul Uloom Deoband has ruled that a woman raped by her father-in-law could not be allowed to live with her husband any longer and issuing a fatwa (decree) that her staying with her husband Noor Elahi has become untenable as per the Islamic law after the rape.

The All India Muslim Law Board (AIMPLB) also concurred with the Darul Uloom of Deoband fatwa, while the lone woman member of the board Naseem Iqtedar Ali Khan too approved the edict and said that as per the Qur'an, Imrana's conjugal relationship with her husband stands dissolved, since she had been raped by the latter's blood relative. Had she been raped by anyone other than a blood relative, she could have stayed with her husband, but here, a sacred relationship has been violated, the consequences of which has to be borne by Imrana and her husband Noor Elahi and pointed out that the responsibility of the couple's five children would have to be shouldered by Elahi as long as required. "India is not a Islamic country were a rapist is stoned to death. Here it is the law of the land which prevails in cases of granting relief to a rape victim and punishing the offe




Mufti Habib ur Rahman of Darul Uloom, who issued the fatwa, however stated that they had been hustled into doing so after queries were raised on Imrana's marital status. The mufti said that he told the parties that raised the queries that the issue ought to be decided by a Shariah court and added that after repeated queries supported by evidence, he issued the fatwa.



As uproar mounted, South Asia's most influential Islamic theological school waded in with a Fatwa or order saying Imrana, a mother of five children, was prohibited from living with her husband under the Shariah, the Islamic law that governs how Muslims should live.

* Gudiya case: Gudiya' husband was missing. Gudiya moved and married another man . But after four years he returned and gudiya was forced to move to her first husband.

* Hudood laws in Pakistan. Due to corruption women raped are instead arrested for adultery.

[nTDsD0aU]

You should really answer the question.

[repldoinfo]

If what you mean by that is 'the Shari'ah is outdated and not suitable for today,' then you need to re-take your shahadah.

So you decide who is a muslim or not ?

[nTDsD0aU]

So you decide who is a muslim or not ?

Allah decides who is a Muslim and who is not.

In saying 'the Shari'ah is outdated and not suitable for today,' you are rejecting parts of the Qur'an, and anyone who rejects the Qur'an in whole or in part is not a Muslim.

[repldoinfo]

In practice what does shariah mean ? It means fiqh rulings and collections of fatwas worked by ulema. These are all human and often thus different from each other. They are an attempt to understand what Allah wants from us

[repldoinfo]

Thankfully Allah decides not you. In a 'Islamic state' peopled by you I could be persecuted.

[nTDsD0aU]

In practice what does shariah mean ? It means fiqh rulings and collections of fatwas worked by ulema. These are all human and often thus different from each other. They are an attempt to understand what Allah wants from us

Ok, so let's be more basic then.

The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment. You good with that?

[As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah . And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise. And this?

[repldoinfo]

Why should I have problem with that ?

[nTDsD0aU]

Why should I have problem with that ?

Ok. How about rajm (stoning)? Is your only issue with purdah? What is an 'ancient fiqh ruling?' Do not use language like that because it sounds like mocking the idea of enforcing Islamic law, and enforcing Islamic law is an act of Ibadah.

[repldoinfo]

Women not being equal witnesses in a court of law. Forcing women out of the public sphere where they are seen as fitnah.
Why should only women bear the responsibility of preventing 'fahashi' in society ?

[nTDsD0aU]

...And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon... Part of al-Baqarah 282.

[repldoinfo]

Part of al-Baqarah 282.

Yes it is for financial transactions. But these days women are increasingly managing thier own finances while working in offices .
So in pakistan in signing a legal paper educated women are lesser than a illiterate man.

[freeringsf]

I will give you specific examples :
* Imrana case Google for it
Imrana accused her father in law of raping her , the ulema ruled she had been automatically been divorced for having a physical relationship with her father in law.
Her father-in-law Ali Muhammed raped Imrana Noor Elahi, mother of five children and resident of Charthawal town of Muzaffarnagar district in western state of Uttar Pradesh allegedly on June 4. The Islamic seminary Darul Uloom Deoband has ruled that a woman raped by her father-in-law could not be allowed to live with her husband any longer and issuing a fatwa (decree) that her staying with her husband Noor Elahi has become untenable as per the Islamic law after the rape.

The All India Muslim Law Board (AIMPLB) also concurred with the Darul Uloom of Deoband fatwa, while the lone woman member of the board Naseem Iqtedar Ali Khan too approved the edict and said that as per the Qur'an, Imrana's conjugal relationship with her husband stands dissolved, since she had been raped by the latter's blood relative. Had she been raped by anyone other than a blood relative, she could have stayed with her husband, but here, a sacred relationship has been violated, the consequences of which has to be borne by Imrana and her husband Noor Elahi and pointed out that the responsibility of the couple's five children would have to be shouldered by Elahi as long as required. "India is not a Islamic country were a rapist is stoned to death. Here it is the law of the land which prevails in cases of granting relief to a rape victim and punishing the offe




Mufti Habib ur Rahman of Darul Uloom, who issued the fatwa, however stated that they had been hustled into doing so after queries were raised on Imrana's marital status. The mufti said that he told the parties that raised the queries that the issue ought to be decided by a Shariah court and added that after repeated queries supported by evidence, he issued the fatwa.



As uproar mounted, South Asia's most influential Islamic theological school waded in with a Fatwa or order saying Imrana, a mother of five children, was prohibited from living with her husband under the Shariah, the Islamic law that governs how Muslims should live.

* Gudiya case: Gudiya' husband was missing. Gudiya moved and married another man . But after four years he returned and gudiya was forced to move to her first husband.

* Hudood laws in Pakistan. Due to corruption women raped are instead arrested for adultery.

have you contacted a mufti regarding these issues?
and have you checked the classical books of hanafi fiqh to decide whether a 'mufti' is acting as per shariah or not?
after all if you are saying the ulema were wrong in these cases then obviously you believe your interpretation is more accurate..


i asked for evidence from this 'antique fiqh' about matters which you disagree with. what you have quoted are fatwas made by the deoband in the first case, God-knows-who in gudiya case and zia in the third case. there is no evidence of how they reached their decisions.
if you think they are incorrect then provide evidence from classical hanafi books of fiqh so that we can all see where the ulema were at fault in understanding fiqh and where you were correct.

[freeringsf]

Yes it is for financial transactions. But these days women are increasingly managing thier own finances while working in offices .
So in pakistan in signing a legal paper educated women are lesser than a illiterate man.

the ayat of the Quran are sacred and not open for laymen to interpret. read what is written in a reliable tafsir of the Qur'an and then state how the early muslims understood this ayat.

again, pakistan is a secular country. why do you assume everything that happens in pakistan is hujjat and islamic?i urge you to read what the ulema have said regarding the witness of women and then let us know what you think.