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Old 12-27-2011, 01:56 PM   #21
Doctor-CTAC

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I think if those opinions had been followed in the Indian subcontinent, the state of Muslims in India would have been a lot stronger. It was this complacency that allowed Muslims to become influenced by Hindus and incorporate many bid'aat such as saint worship and syncretic practices that eventually lead to many within the Mughal empire (including the emperors themselves) declaring themselves to be murtadd - a prime example is Akbar. Allahu a'lam.


Perhaps, or perhaps the entire excursion could have failed and India altogether would have remained kaffir.

We'll never know, and it's rather pointless to speculate, is it not?
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Old 12-27-2011, 02:01 PM   #22
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Perhaps, or perhaps the entire excursion could have failed and India altogether would have remained kaffir.

We'll never know, and it's rather pointless to speculate, is it not?


Well, we can see the example of the Arabian Peninsula under the sahaba . There were no polytheistic idolators found on the peninsula from their time until globalization began in the 20th century. Similarly, in Africa, you don't see many (if any) animists in northern Africa.

It isn't really a speculation - speculating about the past is almost always pointless if there is nothing to be learned - but it should act as something to remind ourselves as we move onwards to the future.
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Old 12-27-2011, 02:17 PM   #23
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Abdulwahab's comment was too general and broad. Emperor akbar was one of the earlier mughal ruler.
If you have bothered to study the growth of islam in indo pak, it is not simple as that. In parts it was a gradual conversion to islam rather then overnight. The inroad of various philosophical view influenced the elite and as such caused deviation in some sphere much like that of arabia where mutazilte, khawarij, zahemiyah etc. The scholars have spoken out and written against these batil trend and some of their work like Maqtubat of Alf Thani's work has impacted the muslim world over as it traveresd the muslim centre of learning over 50 years. Both from east to west around this time there were various reviver and Indo pak is no different.


Well, another example I can give is the use of music. Many mubtadi'oon justify music by saying how it allowed Hindus to become Muslims but in reality, what had happened was the Hindus had corrupted the Muslims into going against the shari'ah and utilizing the tools of Shaytan. The entire reason that the Tablighi Jama'at started, for example, was because Muslims were acting too much like Hindus.
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Old 12-27-2011, 04:34 PM   #24
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Well, we can see the example of the Arabian Peninsula under the sahaba . There were no polytheistic idolators found on the peninsula from their time until globalization began in the 20th century. Similarly, in Africa, you don't see many (if any) animists in northern Africa.

It isn't really a speculation - speculating about the past is almost always pointless if there is nothing to be learned - but it should act as something to remind ourselves as we move onwards to the future.


Africa is a bad example. Don't forget that Spain (which runs along the same current as the North African Ulema) not only had Islam ripped out of it, but it was full of corruption prior to the Crusaders taking it over. Not only that, but the further south you go, the more polytheists you find.

And look at Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. These are Shafi`i countries, and yet they are full of kuffar, shirk, bid`a, etc.

So the problem is you're only looking at examples that serve to further your argument. But I would say the more likely reason for the lack of polytheism in Arab Shafi`i lands is due to the fact that those are closer to the heartland of Islam, and not because they happened to be primarily Shafi`i. Don't forget that they were mainly ruled by Hanafis just like India.

So the issue is most likely one of proximity to the centers of Islam, and not one of certain Madhabs being strict or lax with regards to their treatment of kuffar.
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Old 12-27-2011, 04:49 PM   #25
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Eh, there are a lot of opinions with regards to jizya- in the case of somewhere like India, the logistics of taking the Shafi'i opinion would have been... well, daunting to say the least...
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Old 12-27-2011, 08:40 PM   #26
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Africa is a bad example. Don't forget that Spain (which runs along the same current as the North African Ulema) not only had Islam ripped out of it, but it was full of corruption prior to the Crusaders taking it over. Not only that, but the further south you go, the more polytheists you find.

And look at Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. These are Shafi`i countries, and yet they are full of kuffar, shirk, bid`a, etc.

So the problem is you're only looking at examples that serve to further your argument. But I would say the more likely reason for the lack of polytheism in Arab Shafi`i lands is due to the fact that those are closer to the heartland of Islam, and not because they happened to be primarily Shafi`i. Don't forget that they were mainly ruled by Hanafis just like India.

So the issue is most likely one of proximity to the centers of Islam, and not one of certain Madhabs being strict or lax with regards to their treatment of kuffar.
Can you give specific examples from this statement "And look at Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. These are Shafi`i countries, and yet they are full of kuffar, shirk, bid`a, etc."? As in full = majority, otherwise I doubted you would use the word "full" there. Splinter won't constitute "full". Less than majority would also not be termed as "full". So does your statement mean that shirk, bid'a are rampant in the two countries? If so, that statement warrants further proofs.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:32 AM   #27
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Africa is a bad example. Don't forget that Spain (which runs along the same current as the North African Ulema) not only had Islam ripped out of it, but it was full of corruption prior to the Crusaders taking it over. Not only that, but the further south you go, the more polytheists you find.


Only northern Africa was conquered during the time of the sahabas and you don't find any animists there. I'm talking about Egypt to Morocco. Also, Spain was not corrupt during the time of the sahaba . The Christians weren't considered to be idolators.

And look at Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. These are Shafi`i countries, and yet they are full of kuffar, shirk, bid`a, etc.

So the problem is you're only looking at examples that serve to further your argument. But I would say the more likely reason for the lack of polytheism in Arab Shafi`i lands is due to the fact that those are closer to the heartland of Islam, and not because they happened to be primarily Shafi`i. Don't forget that they were mainly ruled by Hanafis just like India.

So the issue is most likely one of proximity to the centers of Islam, and not one of certain Madhabs being strict or lax with regards to their treatment of kuffar. Sorry brother, but I'm not saying it has anything to do with the madhahib but all to do with what the sahaba did. The sahaba did not conquer Malaysia or Indonesia and that is why you're able to see many Hindus and other polytheists in Malaysia. Also, even though Malaysia and Indonesia are Shafi'i, you'll find most do not adhere strictly to the madhhab. An issue is that of the niqab, where the Shafi'is place great importance on it but you'll be hard pressed to find a niqabi in Malaysia or Indonesia. Similarly, Yemen is a Shafi'i country and you'll be hard pressed to find women who do not observe the niqab.
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Old 12-28-2011, 05:29 AM   #28
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@brother nahda, i thought you were hanafi till yesterday. Now I see "don't know". What happened?
I still adhere to the Hanafi madhhab but i am a bit confused at the moment.
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Old 12-28-2011, 06:44 AM   #29
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I still adhere to the Hanafi madhhab but i am a bit confused at the moment.


Don't be confused bro, continue being Hanafi. Since you must be knowing Salah and other Fiqh matters more from Hanafi Madhab. To change Madhab will be like beginning from zero again. Besides Hanafi Scholars are abundant, its easier for you to get information too. .
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Old 12-28-2011, 06:46 AM   #30
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Sorry brother, but I'm not saying it has anything to do with the madhahib but all to do with what the sahaba did. The sahaba did not conquer Malaysia or Indonesia and that is why you're able to see many Hindus and other polytheists in Malaysia. Also, even though Malaysia and Indonesia are Shafi'i, you'll find most do not adhere strictly to the madhhab. An issue is that of the niqab, where the Shafi'is place great importance on it but you'll be hard pressed to find a niqabi in Malaysia or Indonesia. Similarly, Yemen is a Shafi'i country and you'll be hard pressed to find women who do not observe the niqab.
guys.

First of all, a brief reminder, it's dangerous to speculate and start taking that speculation as "facts". Please don't make it a culture to speculate and make open blanket statements without studying the matter first. That's not what the Prophet taught us.

Hindu and polytheists are many in Malaysia not because sahaba didn't conquer the place to spread Islam. Hindu and polytheists are many in Malaysia because they were brought in by the British colonialist in the 1900s. Indeed, Hindu and polytheists were majority in the peninsular during 1940s before Japanese conquered the land from British. Only after that Muslims started becoming majority again.

Indonesia was the major land for Hindus since eon agos. That's why the largest (or one of the top 5 largest) temple is in Java Island. And Hindu still is prevalent in especially Bali Island. But majority of the land was converted into Islam with da'wa lead by Muslims from Yemen.

Regarrding Shafi'i in Malaysia, the lifestyle is "dilluted" through British based education system. However there are efforts to revive the madrasa school system again (quite a number of new madrasas are already in operation). Indeed, if you study the history of the area, during the 1800s till 1940s, there were a few ulama who were quite famous from the area, mostly from Pattani area (Southern Thailand where the Muslims are waging jihad there to liberate the land and to apply sharia law).
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Old 12-28-2011, 06:59 AM   #31
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Yes, don't be confused.

Imam Abu Hanifa is called Imam Azam (the greatest imam).

In Mufti Zar Wali's tafseer, he mentions a few things:
1) Imam Abu Hanifa did 55 Hajj and met 17 sahaba and most of them he observed while they were praying. So he was a Tab'ee
2) Imam Shafi was a student of Imam Muhammad's students (who was one of the most prominent students of Imam Abu Hanifa)
3) Imam Hanbal became interested in Fiqh after hearing about the fame of Imam Yusuf (who was also a student of Imam Abu Hanifa)
4) In the book "Ma Wafaqal asghar bil Akbar", are listed all the rulings where Imam Hanbal followed the same rulings as Imam Abu Hanifa.

All 4 madhabs are acceptable in the court of Allah. They were the auliya of Allah without a doubt. So it is best to follow one of them in the matters of fiqh, because each one established their rulings based on proofs. Fiqh is based on usool (one of the highest sciences of deen). And Allah knows best.
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Old 12-28-2011, 06:23 PM   #32
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Hanafi because:

- The virtue of Imam Abu Hanifah (Rahimahullah) being from among the Tabi'een.
- The students that he had and how they benefitted the Ummah.
- How the Scholars of India and the rest of Sub-continent protected and are still protecting the Science of Hadeeth and its asaneed.
- Hanafi scholars are easily accessible in my locality

And it is NOT because I was born into Hanafi family. I am familiar with a few Shafi'i and Hanbali Scholars, so it wasn't an issue that I can't access Scholars from a different School. I remember that I once nearly became 'Salafi', lol.
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Old 12-28-2011, 06:36 PM   #33
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guys.

First of all, a brief reminder, it's dangerous to speculate and start taking that speculation as "facts". Please don't make it a culture to speculate and make open blanket statements without studying the matter first. That's not what the Prophet taught us.

Hindu and polytheists are many in Malaysia not because sahaba didn't conquer the place to spread Islam. Hindu and polytheists are many in Malaysia because they were brought in by the British colonialist in the 1900s. Indeed, Hindu and polytheists were majority in the peninsular during 1940s before Japanese conquered the land from British. Only after that Muslims started becoming majority again.

Indonesia was the major land for Hindus since eon agos. That's why the largest (or one of the top 5 largest) temple is in Java Island. And Hindu still is prevalent in especially Bali Island. But majority of the land was converted into Islam with da'wa lead by Muslims from Yemen.

Regarrding Shafi'i in Malaysia, the lifestyle is "dilluted" through British based education system. However there are efforts to revive the madrasa school system again (quite a number of new madrasas are already in operation). Indeed, if you study the history of the area, during the 1800s till 1940s, there were a few ulama who were quite famous from the area, mostly from Pattani area (Southern Thailand where the Muslims are waging jihad there to liberate the land and to apply sharia law).


There is nothing wrong with speculation if it doesn't lead to lamenting the past - as what has happened was what was meant to happen by the qadr of Allah . But, we have to look back at history to learn from it and to better ourselves. Everything is from Allah but we have to make the correct effort.

It does require noting that there were no polytheists in the Arabian peninsula, as well as northern Africa. Even in Iran, Zoroastrianism became a tiny speck of its former glory, with many Zoroastrians actually fleeing to Hindu India when the Muslims arrived during the time of the sahaba . The Qur'an gave an ultimatum to the non-Muslim mushrikeen of Arabia - become a Muslim or leave your land. We see the result with the lack of these polytheists after the Muslims conquered Arabia, northern Africa, and Persia. On the other hand, when the time for conquest of India came, no such ultimatum was given to the Hindus. Over time, Muslims and Hindus blended with each other, with only the righteous ulama staunchly adhering to the sunnah and the evil people adopting personalities that nowadays both Hindus and Muslims seek shafa'a from by visiting their shrines (e.g. Sai Baba). Even Sikhism came about because of this intermingling.

So, we can easily take a lesson from this.
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Old 12-28-2011, 06:47 PM   #34
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Yes, don't be confused.

Imam Abu Hanifa is called Imam Azam (the greatest imam).

In Mufti Zar Wali's tafseer, he mentions a few things:
1) Imam Abu Hanifa did 55 Hajj and met 17 sahaba and most of them he observed while they were praying. So he was a Tab'ee
2) Imam Shafi was a student of Imam Muhammad's students (who was one of the most prominent students of Imam Abu Hanifa)
3) Imam Hanbal became interested in Fiqh after hearing about the fame of Imam Yusuf (who was also a student of Imam Abu Hanifa)
4) In the book "Ma Wafaqal asghar bil Akbar", are listed all the rulings where Imam Hanbal followed the same rulings as Imam Abu Hanifa.

All 4 madhabs are acceptable in the court of Allah. They were the auliya of Allah without a doubt. So it is best to follow one of them in the matters of fiqh, because each one established their rulings based on proofs. Fiqh is based on usool (one of the highest sciences of deen). And Allah knows best.
JazakAllah khayr!
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Old 12-28-2011, 07:10 PM   #35
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What was the dominant Madhhab in places like Islamic Spain?
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Old 12-28-2011, 07:12 PM   #36
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Maliki and Dhahiri, I believe. Ibn Hazm's work revived Dhahiri, but Maliki was the commonality. The muhaqqiq Ibn Abdul Barr lived there.
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Old 12-28-2011, 08:07 PM   #37
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There is nothing wrong with speculation if it doesn't lead to lamenting the past - as what has happened was what was meant to happen by the qadr of Allah . But, we have to look back at history to learn from it and to better ourselves. Everything is from Allah but we have to make the correct effort.

It does require noting that there were no polytheists in the Arabian peninsula, as well as northern Africa. Even in Iran, Zoroastrianism became a tiny speck of its former glory, with many Zoroastrians actually fleeing to Hindu India when the Muslims arrived during the time of the sahaba . The Qur'an gave an ultimatum to the non-Muslim mushrikeen of Arabia - become a Muslim or leave your land. We see the result with the lack of these polytheists after the Muslims conquered Arabia, northern Africa, and Persia. On the other hand, when the time for conquest of India came, no such ultimatum was given to the Hindus. Over time, Muslims and Hindus blended with each other, with only the righteous ulama staunchly adhering to the sunnah and the evil people adopting personalities that nowadays both Hindus and Muslims seek shafa'a from by visiting their shrines (e.g. Sai Baba). Even Sikhism came about because of this intermingling.

So, we can easily take a lesson from this.
When it's wrong, it still is wrong. Two wrongs won't make a right. The Prophet never taught us to speculate on things we don't know.

What's bad about speculation is;
- It's not based on the truth. Therefore, what could be possibly gained from made up event or a speculation from a person who doesnt't have the knowledge about the real circumstances? And I mean this about any event at all, not just about what you wrote earlier. We've had many good beautiful stories about the Prophet which turned out that there was no source to back it up at all. This is something we should avoid as the akhlaq of the Prophet is above any standard we've seen and there's no need to "spice it up" with beautiful stories, even if someone did it for a good cause. We Muslims stand for the haqq, and there should be no compromise in it, and we never take the route of "the end justifying the means". We should and must stick to what the Prophet has taught us all.

- Speculations tend to overlook the hard facts available. It's not the characteristic of a good Muslim to speculate on stuffs we don't know. Otherwise it'll be open ended. Just imagine what if every one starts "speculating" without checking the hard facts? Would you do da'wa this way?

- Regardless of what happened to sikh and some of the former Muslims who traded/blended their faith with other faiths in the sub-continent, that events can't be used as a yardstick to generalize as if the same thing happened to the Muslims from other far away places from the Arabian Peninsular. If that's the case, then would you speculate about "the blending" of the Islamic faiths with other faiths of our brothers in Chechen, Xinjiang, Gansu, and Ningxia in China, and other parts of the world? Or are you gonna use the same yardstick to judge our brothers who live in the West? Moreover, the West tend to have more colorful "cultural transitions/events" in the history compared to other places.

- Have you contacted any local Muslims from the area you mentioned before to know what's exactly the status of the efforts to bring back sharia law and to move the majority Muslims towards the goal of united under one caliphate should the time come? And I mean this not just for Indonesia/Malaysia area, but any regions that we have no knowledge at all. That should be something that we must base our initial assesment on.

We should stop giving excuses to the wrong things. Haqq is haqq, and there's no compromise in that. Otherwise haqq will be dilluted, and will not be pure anymore. Since we all strive to bring haqq to ourselves and the surrounding around us, therefore we should also not be "dilluted" with mere speculations in our thoughts.

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Old 12-28-2011, 08:20 PM   #38
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Shalom Aleikhom,

I do not have any madhab. I am interested to follow this thread and learn about people, how and why they belong to a certain madhab. Interesting. From what I have seen, almost 99.99% time, it is the fact that they were born in to a family that follows the madhab that they belong to.

PEACE
---------------------- Student of Allah
What's up with the Jewish greeting? Muslims greet eachother with Salamu Alaikum not with Shalom Aleikhom.
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Old 12-28-2011, 10:44 PM   #39
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Assalamu alaykum


I still adhere to the Hanafi madhhab but i am a bit confused at the moment. How come you are confused. When great muhadditeen of the salaf were not, they followed hanafi madhab.

1. Al-Khatib al-Baghdadi (392 – 463) narrates in Tarikh Baghdad: Al-Khallal informed me: ‘Ali ibn ‘Amr al-Hariri informed me that ‘Ali ibn Muhammad al-Nakha‘i narrated to them: Najih ibn Ibrahim narrated to us: Ibn Karamah narrated to us: We were with Waki‘ [ibn al-Jarrah] (126 – 196) one day and a man said: “Abu Hanifah erred!”

Waki‘ said: “How can Abu Hanifah err when with him are the likes of Abu Yusuf (113 – 182) and Zufar (110 – 158) in their logic; and the likes of Yahya ibn Abi Za’idah (120 – 182), Hafs ibn Ghiyath (117 – 194), Hibban (111 – 171) and Mindal (103 – 169) in their memorisation of hadith; and the like of al-Qasim ibn Ma‘n (100 – 175) in his knowledge of language and Arabic; and Dawud al-Ta’i (105 – 162) and Fudayl ibn ‘Iyad (107 – 187) in their asceticism and their scrupulousness? The one whose sitting partners are such, he does not come close to erring, because if he erred they would correct him.” (Tarikh Baghdad 16:365)

. With the same chain up to al-Nakha‘i, al-Khatib narrates: Al-Nakha‘i said: I heard Muhammad ibn Ishaq al-Bakka’i say: I heard Isma‘il ibn Hammad ibn Abi Hanifah say: “The [foremost] companions of Abu Hanifah were ten: Abu Yusuf, Zufar, Asad ibn ‘Amr al-Bajali (d. 190), ‘Afiyah al-Awdi (d. 160), Dawud al-Ta’i, al-Qasim ibn Ma‘n al-Mas‘udi, ‘Ali ibn Mushir (d. 189), Yahya ibn Zakariyya ibn Abi Za’idah, Hibban and Mindal the sons of ‘Ali al-‘Anbari, and there was not amongst them the like of Abu Yusuf and Zufar.” (Tarikh Baghdad 16:363)

In al-Jawahir al-Mudiyyah (no. 307, biography of Asad ibn ‘Amr), al-Qarashi quotes from a book by Imam al-Tahawi the following:

Ibn Abi Thawr wrote to me, narrating to me from Sulayman ibn ‘Imran: Asad ibn al-Furat narrated to me: “The companions of Abu Hanifah who would compile books were 40 men. From the ten foremost of them were: Abu Yusuf, Zufar, Dawud al-Ta’i, Asad ibn ‘Amr, Yusuf ibn Khalid al-Samti (122 – 189), Yahya ibn Zakariyya ibn Abi Za’idah, and he was the one who would write for them (i.e. the companions of Abu Hanifah) for thirty years.”
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Old 12-28-2011, 11:13 PM   #40
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Well i am confused in the sense that i have always floated between the Hanafi and Maliki madhhahib but i am aware of the fact that i should make a decision wich one to adhere to fully.
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