[endulundaSauh]

...

[Karensmith]

Ethyl alcohol from any source such as grape, dates, corn has the same chemical formula of CH3 H2 OH, same physical, chemical properties and has the same quality of intoxication. So ethyl alcohol from grape and date is same as ethyl alcohol from corn technically. As Hadith mentioned in above postings that any intoxicant is Haram either in small or large quanitity. Our Mufti saheban said when you add alcohol in a natural or artificial flavor as a solvent and add to a food formula of Halal ingredients then you contaminated the pureness of Halal ingredients then all the Halal ingredients became nagus like alcohol itself. This man added alcohol to flavors process is not same as minor quanitity of alcohol created in mature fruits by natural fermentation of sugar of fruits. Another thing, a flavor house or flavor company has choice of avoiding alcohol in flavor, Halal solvents such as Propylene Glycol, water, vegetable oil and maltodextrin for dry flavors are available to the flavor chemist but they prefer alcohol unless food scientist like me who request a alcohol free flavor for developing a new food product. There are many flavors in use in US food industry which do not have alcohol as a solvent. Many Muslims countries with their buying power never ask Us food companies to make their food products alcohol free. Instead they made artificial rule of .05% man added alcohol in food products as Halal foods.

Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
Muslim Consumer Group
www.muslimconsumergroup.com

[HcMkOKiz]

Ethyl alcohol from any source such as grape, dates, corn has the same chemical formula of CH3 H2 OH, same physical, chemical properties and has the same quality of intoxication. So ethyl alcohol from grape and date is same as ethyl alcohol from corn technically.

But that shouldn't matter, as the hadith made clear that the source of the alcohol does matter.

[Karensmith]

Assalam O Alaikum

There is no Hadith which says alcohol from other than grape and date is not Haram. The Hadith mentioned in above postings is that Qamer is made from grape and date.

As a food scientist and Cereal chemist, technically there is no difference in chemical, physical characteristic, intoxication quality of alcohol obtained from any source such as grape, date, corn. Majority of alcohol in USA is made from discarded grape after picking up for table grape and wine grape. Now a days corn is used to make alcohol to be use in flavors and also blending with gasolin.

As one ulema said in above posting that synthetic alcohol is not Haram, the Ulema has to know that the synthetic alcohol is made from natural gas and petroleum derivatives. It is not obtained from fermenting fruits. This synthetic alcohol is also Haram because it has same chemical formulaCH3 Ch2 OH and it has the same chemical, physical characteristic, intoxication quality like other alcohol obtained from fermentation process.

It is very important for ulema to consult with food scientists to know the Halal status of an food ingredient or a food product based on science and food processing methods.


Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
www.muslimconsumergroup.com

[lalpphilalk]

Assalam O Alaikum

There is no Hadith which says alcohol from other than grape and date is not Haram. The Hadith mentioned in above postings is that Qamer is made from grape and date.

As a food scientist and Cereal chemist, technically there is no difference in chemical, physical characteristic, intoxication quality of alcohol obtained from any source such as grape, date, corn. Majority of alcohol in USA is made from discarded grape after picking up for table grape and wine grape. Now a days corn is used to make alcohol to be use in flavors and also blending with gasolin.

As one ulema said in above posting that synthetic alcohol is not Haram, the Ulema has to know that the synthetic alcohol is made from natural gas and petroleum derivatives. It is not obtained from fermenting fruits. This synthetic alcohol is also Haram because it has same chemical formulaCH3 Ch2 OH and it has the same chemical, physical characteristic, intoxication quality like other alcohol obtained from fermentation process.

It is very important for ulema to consult with food scientists to know the Halal status of an food ingredient or a food product based on science and food processing methods.


Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
www.muslimconsumergroup.com

I agree with you. We are mainly talking about alcohol(ethanol) and there is no difference in chemical formulae and it's intoxicating effect of the one produced by fermentation example of grapes and by other synthetic methods.

In chemistry Alcohol contains wide range of products. Alcohol that is used in food such as propylene glycol and the sugar alcohols are not intoxicating, in large or small amount.

[AlekseyZubkov]

Assalam O Alaikum

As one ulema said in above posting that synthetic alcohol is not Haram, the Ulema has to know that the synthetic alcohol is made from natural gas and petroleum derivatives. It is not obtained from fermenting fruits. This synthetic alcohol is also Haram because it has same chemical formulaCH3 Ch2 OH and it has the same chemical, physical characteristic, intoxication quality like other alcohol obtained from fermentation process.

Wa 'alaikum asalaam brother.

I believe this statement is based on the very old position of Imaam Abu Hanifa (rah) since he used to distinguish between alcohols and Mufti Ebrahim Desai (rah) mentioned the basis for this from Miskhat. And according to Sheikh Hamza Karamali (Shafi'i), there is a "world of difference" (at least in fiqh) between adding ethyl and it being a naturally present process.

I don't know about the other madhahib, but the amount of alcohol present in a substance is also relevant (and not just whether the alcohol was 'naturally' there or 'added').

And though chemical composition may be the same, in fiqh, it's how a product was derived that also counts and not just the end result - so for example, water boiled with heat that emanated from burning filth (najasah) is no longer purifying water, even though the chemical composition of the water remains the same (since the najasah never came into contact with the water either). Wassalaam

[OvDojQXN]

as-salaamu 'alaykum,
I had a previous exchange with Sh. Abu Hajira regarding this same issue:
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33870

I am still not convinced of the sense, or even possibility, of differentiating in the source of the alcohol if it has *exactly* the same chemical formula. Br. Rasheed can you comment on on some of the issues mentioned in the thread above, especially regarding the facts behind carbonated drinks have traces of alcohol and fermentation in orange juice, etc. -- is it so that fruit drinks, for example, would have traces of ethyl alcohol naturally, or is that different chemical formula?

Jazaakumullaah,
--- nadeem

[gfkasjhfg]

Brother Rasheeduddin Ahmed holds the view that such alcohol is haram, following his Ulama who are of the Barelwi maslak, while the majority of our Deobandi Ulama view such alcohol as halal.

Br. Rasheeduddin Ahmed insists on creating the impression that our Ulama who classify it as halal, don't liaise with food scientists, thus they fall into such blunders.

Alhamdulillah, we not only have Ulama qualified in these fields in our Halal bodies here in South Africa, but also have numerous Muslim experts in these fields who liase with our Halal bodies.

Brother Rasheeduddin Ahmed corresponded with the Dar al-Ifta in Camperdown on the issue and I responded to his concerns. This was four years ago.

It is obvious that we hold two completely different views with no chance of reconciliation between them.

His view is similar to that of "The Majlis" here in South Africa, on a variety of issues, so we hold ours and leave him to his.
That is more or less where our correspondence ended.

I will post it here soon, for the benefit of the public, however we aren't going to entertain another discussion on this issue, during the month of Ramadan.

If someone wants to discuss it, they may do so after this Blessed month.
No in-depth discussion/debates are allowed on this forum during this month, as they waste too much time.

And Allah Ta'ala knows best
Husain

[Karensmith]

Assalam O Alaikum

To answer the question from Br. Nadeem. The orange and apple juices in USA are pasteurized so that any bacteria or yeast will be killed at the pastuerization temperature of 160-165 Degree F, so there is no fermentation of sugar in those juices. You have to be careful about the use of gelatin in filteration processes of apple juice. The carbonated drinks are prsereved by acid in the formula and absorbing Carbon dioxide CO2 by water. The source of alcohol in carbonated beverages comes from natural or artificial flavors. In some flavor alcohol or propylene glycol(Halal solvent) is used as a solvent. Some beverage companies do not use use alcohol as a solvent. You have to find out from the beverage companies because they are the only one who has the knowledge of alcohol as a solvent. They received specification from flavor houses or flavor companies in which flavor companies must provide the information of solvent in the flavor.

Regarding Br. Hussain post, yes, he has contacted me 4 years back but my question is how come their food experts do not tell the ulema about the same chemical formula and intoxication quality of alcohol obtained from other sources than grape and date.

It is nothing to do with Aqeeda whether you are a Deabandi or Barelwi. I am just presenting the scientific facts regarding alcohol from different sources.

Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
Muslim Consumer Group
www.muslimconsumergroup.com

[gfkasjhfg]

Regarding Br. Hussain post, yes, he has contacted me 4 years back but my question is how come their food experts do not tell the ulema about the same chemical formula and intoxication quality of alcohol obtained from other sources than grape and date.

It is nothing to do with Aqeeda whether you are a Deabandi or Barelwi. I am just presenting the scientific facts regarding alcohol from different sources.

Could I ask the basis on which you claim that our food experts didn't inform our Ulama of this?

Ahamdulillah, our food experts know that their job is to inform the Ulama the nature and reality of the ingredients, not to tell the Ulama whether these ingredients are Halal or not.
That is the responsibility of the Ulama.

While it isn't a Deobandi/Barelwi Aqidah issue, the Deobandi Ulama have granted leeway for these alcohols, based on the madhab of Imam Abu Hanifah, while the Barelwis haven't.

So you will rely on your Ulama, while we rely on ours.

[Karensmith]

Assalam O Alaikum Br. Hussain,

There is no posting in Sunniforum about the advice from your food experts to Ulema that the alcohol from different sources has the same chemical formulas and same intoxicant quality. When I could not find above in the postings, I wrote about it in Sunniforum for the benefit of Muslims to know what are the scientific facts of alcohol.

Many food scientist which has degree in food science & related majors and has many years of food industry experience can provide the Halal/Haram status to food ingredients and food products for Muslims except few and educate them. You do not have to use the Ulema only.

I was reading about the Halal status of whey powder given by Mufti Ibrahim Desai in Sunniforum without mentioning the Halal status of Starter Culture bacteria, the media upon which these bacteria grow which are added to milk and source of rennet. He has to refer to real food scientists before guiding the Muslims about it. Ulemas are not food scientists, they need help from food scientists. The starter bacteria, media and rennet are the hidden ingredients in whey. On the ingredients statement of a food product, it is mentioned only whey. Only food scientists has the knowledge of hidden ingredients.

Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
Muslim Consumer Group
www.muslimconsumergroup.com

[Karensmith]

Assalam O Alaikum Br. Khan

How could you justify when Mufti Ibrahim Desi provided Halal status to "Whey" without investigating the Halal status of Starter Culture Bacteria, the media upon these bacteria grows and source of rennet. These are the requirements for assigning Halal status to ingredient "Whey". Unfortuntely the food experts which provided the scientific information may not be food scientists or they are not aware of the knowledge about how whey is made. You can not provide wrong information to the Muslims. This is like the same thing that a Mufti can not make a sick Muslim to healthy. The Muslim has to see a medical doctor for the treatment.

I have great respect for all mufti and their knowledge regarding sharia. But there certain area where they need the help of real food experts. it is nothing to do Devbandi or Hanafi. It is all about food science and food industry experience. The experts has to be qualified to give the advice to a mufti for fatwa. If they are not educated in food science nor they have food industry experience then they are not qualify to give advise on food ingredients and food products to a mufti. There are very few ingredients which require the fatwa from muftis after explaining how the ingredient is made. For example Shellack which is a secretion of insects, whether it is Halal or not. I have contact the muftis and they said it is Halal. But most of shellac is dissolved in alcohol then it became Haram.

Not all alcohols are Harm except ethyl alcohol which has intoxication quality. From scientific point of view any alcohol which do not intoxicate is Halal.

My opinion is that a qualified Muslim food scientist who has degree in food science and several years of food industry experience can provide the Halal/Haram status of a food ingredient or food product. He does not have to go to a mufti for Halal status unless case like Shellac ingredient. He can say an Enriched wheat flour is a Halal ingredient if all ingredients of enrichment are Halal.

We are not talking about dean so that we can approach the Muftis, we are talking about complex food ingredients and food products which are made on the principles of science. You have to take advise of a chemist for the Halal status of a food ingredient because Muftis are not chemists.

Yes it means both ethyl alcohol are Haram if they obtained from two different sources because there is no scientific difference of intoxication quality in them and both has the same chemical formula. Any intoxicant is Haram either in small quanitity or large according to a Hadith.

Science played an important role in Islam specially chemistry , many Muslim scientists developed many things which are still used by many people of the world. They were not muftis but scientist.

Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
Muslim Consumer Group
www.muslimconsumergroup.com

[Smabeabumjess]

Assalam O Alaikum Br. Khan

I have great respect for all mufti and their knowledge regarding sharia. But there certain area where they need the help of real food experts. it is nothing to do Devbandi or Hanafi. It is all about food science and food industry experience. The experts has to be qualified to give the advice to a mufti for fatwa. If they are not educated in food science nor they have food industry experience then they are not qualify to give advise on food ingredients and food products to a mufti. There are very few ingredients which require the fatwa from muftis after explaining how the ingredient is made. For example Shellack which is a secretion of insects, whether it is Halal or not. I have contact the muftis and they said it is Halal. But most of shellac is dissolved in alcohol then it became Haram.

Br Syed,


Each ingredient will play its role.. Once you agree that the Muftiyaan knowing that ethanol derived from other sources has the quality of intoxicant.. yet have ruled that it does not fall under Hurmat of Nusus Qat'ii.. THEN you have to agree to disagree. Now thereafter if the shellac is halal and is mixed with synthetic alcohol, it will not change the mufties decision.

Not all alcohols are Harm except ethyl alcohol which has intoxication quality. From scientific point of view any alcohol which do not intoxicate is Halal.

....


Yes it means both ethyl alcohol are Haram if they obtained from two different sources because there is no scientific difference of intoxication quality in them and both has the same chemical formula. Any intoxicant is Haram either in small quanitity or large according to a Hadith.

As you have mentioned before...that according to you alcohol whether khamr or non khamr is all najis .. So now here are a couple of twisters for you..

a. Rasulullah has been reported to have used nabeez. Which is a date juice.. rather soaked water of dates over night and drunk early in morning.. If it is kept unattended for merely more than a few hours it starts to bubble because of the fermentation and thus becomes proper khamar. Please tell us how soon does fermentation starts.. because according to your usool as soon as even one molecule of khamr got formed there, the nabeez would become completely najis and haraam. So did Rasulullah drinking this nabeez

b. The above nabeez is also najis because of that particular molecule.. and Rasulullah at one point also made wudhu with it.

c. You eat bread, which uses yeast for ferementation. We know that the ethanol made from this fermentation gets evaporated thus there is no intoxication...but while the fermentation is being done.. from the time of dough till baking.. the bread comes in contact with the ethanol.. so by your usool that bread should be najis too.

d. If two molecules being same was a good enough argument to make something halal and haram.. then pork should have been halal to consume .. unless the protein strands that make the pork meat are completely different from normal meat.. please enumerate the scientific difference between pork meat and cow meat.

e. What is the scientific difference between a flowing blood and non flowing blood.


My opinion is that a qualified Muslim food scientist who has degree in food science and several years of food industry experience can provide the Halal/Haram status of a food ingredient or food product. He does not have to go to a mufti for Halal status unless case like Shellac ingredient. He can say an Enriched wheat flour is a Halal ingredient if all ingredients of enrichment are Halal.
Your "opinion" is just that.. an opinion.. Over and above it is an opinion that cannot govern Islamic ruling. In your opinion you have unduly given the "food scientists" a post which he has not authority oven. Yes, no doubt, he is a food scientist.. his information and research in the field is worth consideration but to appoint him in the seat of a mufti to givern halal and haram of the item is way off line.

Above in this very post you said that food scientist should give advice to the mufti for the fatwa.. and now you are trying to corner yourself a fatwa authority for the food scientists, subhanAllah... If the food scientists does not know what is the difference between hurmat qatt'i and hurmat dhanni.. hurmat bidalalat and hurmat bilasbaab... what good would his chemistry/nutritional knowledge do in making halal haram?

We are not talking about dean so that we can approach the Muftis, we are talking about complex food ingredients and food products which are made on the principles of science. You have to take advise of a chemist for the Halal status of a food ingredient because Muftis are not chemists. Exactly! and chemists are not mufties.. leave mufties they are not even Maulanas.. They do not have a say in deeni matters. ALL they can do is give their researched information to the mufti .. THATS IT.. anything beyond that is intervening into deeni matters.

Science played an important role in Islam specially chemistry , many Muslim scientists developed many things which are still used by many people of the world. They were not muftis but scientist. And can you show in this same history how many of these scientists gave religious verdicts? Please do not cite those who have had religious standings, because that would make them mufties.. Give few names who were authorized to give fatwas of halal and haram, while Qadhi has a seperate mufti for other religious verdicts..

Science has a role in Islam.. and it is no where near the knowledge of Quran and Sunnah.. It is given respect as much is due to it.. As Imam Ghazali r.a said that the extent of secular knowledge required to learn is only the much which will instill the tauheed in oneself,.. beyond that is not required nor necessary.

[Karensmith]

Assalam O Alaikum

Quote: "Each ingredient will play its role.. Once you agree that the Muftiyaan knowing that ethanol derived from other sources has the quality of intoxicant.. yet have ruled that it does not fall under Hurmat of Nusus Qat'ii.. THEN you have to agree to disagree. Now thereafter if the shellac is halal and is mixed with synthetic alcohol, it will not change the mufties decision. "


According to Hadith all intoxicant are Haram this includes ethyl alcohol obtained through fermentation of sugar from any source including synthetic alcohol because of its intoxication quality. The saying of Imam Abu Yousuf is not accepted by all Muslims but every Muslim accept the above Hadith. It is possible at time of Abu Yousuf the knowledge was not avaialble that the alcohol from any source has the same intoxicant quality, same physical and chemical characteristics.

Quote: As you have mentioned before...that according to you alcohol whether khamr or non khamr is all najis .. So now here are a couple of twisters for you..

a. Rasulullah has been reported to have used nabeez. Which is a date juice.. rather soaked water of dates over night and drunk early in morning.. If it is kept unattended for merely more than a few hours it starts to bubble because of the fermentation and thus becomes proper khamar. Please tell us how soon does fermentation starts.. because according to your usool as soon as even one molecule of khamr got formed there, the nabeez would become completely najis and haraam. So did Rasulullah drinking this nabeez

b. The above nabeez is also najis because of that particular molecule.. and Rasulullah at one point also made wudhu with it.

c. You eat bread, which uses yeast for ferementation. We know that the ethanol made from this fermentation gets evaporated thus there is no intoxication...but while the fermentation is being done.. from the time of dough till baking.. the bread comes in contact with the ethanol.. so by your usool that bread should be najis too.

d. If two molecules being same was a good enough argument to make something halal and haram.. then pork should have been halal to consume .. unless the protein strands that make the pork meat are completely different from normal meat.. please enumerate the scientific difference between pork meat and cow meat.

e. What is the scientific difference between a flowing blood and non flowing blood. "

It is depend upon the amount of yeast and other microorganism how fast the fermentation occur. This is the reason all fruit juices are pasteurized to kill yeast and bacteria which causes the fermentation of sugar in fruits. This pasterization was not discver at the time of Prophet Mohammed Sallallahu alaihi wasallum. The minute amount of alcohol in ripe fruits and in bread is due to natural fermentation and ripe fruits and bread is not consider Haram. But it is different from man added alcohol to natural or artificial flavor. This natural alcohol in fruits and bread do not intoxicate but it has to be natural. I did not discuss about one molecule of alcohol in my posting. But according to a Hadith small quantity or large quantity of intoxicant is Haram. Prophet Mohammed Sallallahu alaihi wasallum was drinking the nabeez before it get fermented.

Pork meat has the different amount and sequences of Amino Acids than cow meat. The amino acids are the building block of protein. It also has different poly peptide bounds attaching to peptides. Pork fat has different fatty acid chains than beef fat. Amount of amino acids and its sequence of pork meat will not change even during the processing of gelatin. Meat basic unit is amino acid not the molecule because it is not liquid, molecule is for liquids. The flowing blood do not exposed to air so ther is no oxidation of blood in human body. Air expose blood is subjected to oxidation because of air. But the basic unit of flowing and non flowing blood is same. Blood obtained from same person do show same homoglobin, protein and lipid in flowing and non flowing blood.

Why you have to go a mufti who does not have the knowledge of food ingredients and food products and who borough the knowledge from others to give fatwa. If a food scientist assign a Halal status to a food ingredient based on Quran, Hadith and science, it will be good enough. Two major food websites in USA are run by food scientists and they also have Ulema for advices on certain ingredients. They have lot traffic from Muslims to learn the Halal status of food ingredients and food products. There is no literature in Islam for Halal status of food, you have to go to Mufti when mufti do not have the knowledge of food technology.

Yes a food scientist with knowledge of Quran, Hadith and science can give the Halal status to a food ingredient or a food product. But he will not give the wrong information about the Halal status of whey to Muslim as given by Mufti Ibrahim Desi with the help of his food experts. Please answer my question why he gave the wrong information to Muslims.

In 12th and 13th century, Professor Maher Ali's wrote article about medical schools. But he is not a Mufti, Al-Khwarizmi discovered algebra in 830. I do not know whether he is a Mufti or not.

Finally a food scientist with knowledge of Quran, Hadith and science can assign the Halal status to food products.

Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
Muslim Consumer Group
www.muslimconsumergroup.com

[ChexEcodece]

Assalaamualaikum wr wb,

Isn't it great, how everyone says salaam at the start of their posts.

----

I think everyone should step back and just assess what it is they've all written. So let's see...what can I summarise so far from this thread..

I'd like to ask, what is everyone's mother tongue language? And second languages if they have any?Where do you all come from, where are you all based? Maybe that'd help give people a better picture...

Then I'd like to point out that a fact is a fact - in the scientific world, with the way scientific minds are construed, of course the end chemical formula of 'alcohols' derived from different sources will be the same. I'd like to say that alcohol is broken down by the liver enzymes P450 in the body, this is fact. Whatever the type of alcohol, often the same alcohol.

Then you have the blessed learned ppl of fatwa giving rights - who deem that if not consumed in large quantities and if produced naturally, and if not from grape and dates, then by their deduction, such alcohol is fine.

But you have to wonder about Shellac and alcohol as a solvent?

And while we're at it, what's the issue with Starter Bacteria and medium? Surely once you have the bacteria, they act on the protein in milk and do the job of turning it into curds and whey? Are the bacteria themselves haram? And as for rennet - we've already been told that if the rennet comes from baby pig stomaches or non-halal-slaughtered calf's stomachs, then its haram - and that such rennet used to make cheese (curd elements - whey thrown off which is the liquid aspect containing enzyme rennet and dried off to be used in all sorts of products..)

I think both parties are not acknowledging each other's sentiments. I reckon that the food scientist bro is only trying to make the point that in this day an age a whole bunch of **** goes on in making processed foods and unless he feels reassured that the learned people are aware of this, then he cannot really rest knowing that people in his mind are potentially not living as halal as possible. Especially if a fatwa is being made based on a particular countries way of processing food. eg. maybe in the middle east, the rennet is halal. hence whey is halal. But in the west, it may not be from a halal source.

And I reckon that those people who feel the religion has answered the issues sufficiently are not making it clear enuff - we all have to look at our failings in trying to help each other understand....maybe if both parties can show some acknowledgement, then maybe we'd get somewhere? eg. it's true ...bread even smells alcoholic after coming straight out the oven...mmmm tastey (I joke in all seriousness)...unless the scholars say categorically that such small amounts of naturally made alcohol is haram - then bread is still okay to eat. Does make you wonder though, why many countries eat pitta bread.

Finally - i think the moral of the story is that we should all own a plot of land somewhere and make our own cheeses, and eat fresh fruit and vegetables and not eat harmful foods like donuts that might kill our pancreas' and lead us to the land of diabetes.

By the way - don't krispie kremes contain stearates? is that a plant or animal derivative - I was under the impression that this was derived from some sort of animal fatty acid. Perhaps our Br.Rasheed may provide some light on the matter.
http://www.krispykreme.com/nutri.pdf

Apologies in advance for stepping on anyone's toes. I just get pretty tired of this back and forth obsessive compulsive argumentation....that's why its obsessive and compulsive.



May God bless all of you who are trying to argue your points. May we take time to learn and understand each other, and may peace always reside in our hearts. May God forgive me for giving in lol and writing.

Wasalaam.

[Smabeabumjess]

sister,

your sentiments are acknowledged.. and I must confess for endulging yet again in a discussion.. My resolution dictated that I keep aside atleaste for this month.

With that said, I think it is unfair for anyone (scientists or engineers alike) to comment on the knowledge of Muftiyaan and people in religious fields..simply because the rules and laws that govern the field of Religious Sciences are completely different than the science.

In the same breath, only a person who spends time in these darul iftaas can take a shot at how thorough or shallow the process of authentication is. As I mentioned from a muftis side, a food scientist is an information source.. nothing more. Once he provides the information, his job/duty in deen is finished, from there on the mufti will handle the decision making. Have we seen an army where a scout will make the decision for the general where to sen the next set of troops?

Br. is adamantly arguing the ability of these scientists to having the ability of passing decrees. If that is the case, then why not let all the scientists give decrees in their respective fields.. food scientists can do so here...just like an Electronic Systems Engineer can decree ruling in circuit mechanisms ..while understanding the processing of the digital imaging (see other thread).

A accountant can make his decree according to Quran and Hadith as to what is shariah compliant and not..

A lawyer can do the same about the legal bounds of Shariah.

And in that trend .. why stop there .. let a mother decide what her sharii rights are and let the husband decide whether his three talaqs are to be counted one .. when and wherever he best understand in the light of Quran and Sunnah..

Sister, on face value..what brother is saying makes some sense, but hidden within it is a chimera. Let the monster out of the box and say bye bye to religion. If all can carry out their respective fields.. then what are we keeping our muftiyaan for? polishing our boots?

A mufti's perorogative is to give a fatwa on the information he is provided with or the information he can gather. He is not liable for more than that. Do we think that the mufti in bhatinda , 30 years back will wait for Mr. Food Scientist from this age to go there and do the job of explaning what is halal and not.. Obviously no.. He will give the fatwa on the information he is provided. Sometimes mufties make mistakes.. but they have the honesty of rectifying themselves.. I can present one case of chocolate liquor with mufti Saheb.. (you can search the fatwa on the web)..

I understand that the brother is frustrated that his field or rather his knowlege in the field is not being acredited, but that does not give him the right to step beyong his field either. Just like he feels that a mufti cannot encompass his field.. the mufti cannot expect him to understand the fine points of iftaa and knowledge.

As Hanafis our dietery boundries will be determined by the same usools which determine our worship and ibaadiyaat. Mufti Hussain aptly said in the other thread about the Hanafi opinion with regards to ethyl alcohol..

The results of my findings is that many of our Akaabir were of the view that it is permissible to consume minute amounts of alcohol if it is not from grapes and dates based on the view of Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Abu Yusuf because of Umoom Al-Balwa.
The Ulema who gave fatwa to this effect include Mufti Shafi, Mufti Taqi, Mufti Rashid Ludhyani, Mufti Nizamuddin, Maulana Abdul Haqq Haqqani, Maulana Thanwi (if one cannot avoid it), Mufti Sacha, Mufti Ebrahim Desai, and others. That is the end of story. Ulama and Mujtahideen were consuming Malts at the time of our Imaams because of it not being khamar and having the ability to provide strength.. YET laid down the rule that when it reaches the level of intoxication it will become haram.. shows that they knew its quality of intoxication...even after that the brother comes up and claime "...how come their food experts do not tell the ulema about the same chemical formula and intoxication quality of alcohol obtained from other sources than grape and date..."

Do we not realize that Ulama in this aspect did not even had to wonder about whether it has that quality or not.. that was already known that alcohols besides grapes and dates can also intoxicate.. Their kutubs from time of Imaams mention this..

I just have one last point here though.. Br. rasheed (I am only using 3rd person form b.c I am adressing the sister..pls do not be offended by that)...is adamant on his decision so much that he is using the american policy.. "Say something repeatedly long enough that people starts to accept it as reality"..

Yes a food scientist with knowledge of Quran, Hadith and science can give the Halal status to a food ingredient or a food product.
...
Finally a food scientist with knowledge of Quran, Hadith and science can assign the Halal status to food products.
...
a qualified Muslim food scientist who has degree in food science and several years of food industry experience can provide the Halal/Haram status of a food ingredient or food product. He does not have to go to a mufti for Halal status
... Furtheron, br again and again questioned the fatwa of Mufti Ebrahim Saheb db. I ask .. how many times did he send his research on the matter to Mufti Ebrahim ? If he knew that a certain fatwa was incorrect.. then it was his perorogative to let the mufti know that he has been misinformed. Mufti Saheb is such a person who does not hesitate to change his ruling .. when a new information is given to him he changes his ruling as well ( http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.p...57fbe42540c81e )

However, keeping in mind that the decision making with regards to shariah is still in the mufti's hand.. just because you have given your information would not necessitate him changing his position. the information has to affect the ruling for that. In case of ethyl alcohol..no matter what your research was.. it didnt affect because the opinion of Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Abu Yusuf r.am was adopted.. and thus the fatwa ruling didnt change..

Now Br. Rasheed.. which date did you send your email to daruliftaa I will inshAllah track it down and place it on mufti's desk firt thing when he returns from london.

[Karensmith]

Assalam O Alaikum Sister,

First I will give the information about Halal status of a cheese.

CHEESES AND ITS HALAL STATUS:

The following things have to be Halal in order for a cheese to be considered Halal:

1.Ingredients used to make the Mother Starter Culture growth Media
2. Ingredients used to make the Bulk Starter Culture growth Media
3. Starter Bacterial culture are Halal if they obtained from milk source and not from meat source, usually in practice they obtained from milk.
3. Milk Coagulating Enzyme, such as Microbial rennet used to coagulate milk or Rennet obtained from Zabiha slaughtered calves
4. Fat Hydrolyzing Enzyme, such as Microbial Lipases
5. Dairy ingredients such as Non Fat dry milk solid or cream or dry milk added
6. Artificial color such as artificial blue or green color is added to neutralize natural yellow color in curd for Asiago or Blue cheese
7. Media to grow mold Penicillium roquefortti providing blue color in blue cheese
8. Harmless plant based enzyme is added for curing or flavor development and growth media for biological curing agent used on the surface of Brick cheese
9. Flavoring, hydrolyzed lactose, whey for cold packed cheese food, gelatin is allowed in cream cheese but most manufacturer use gums instead of gelatin.
(obtained from www.muslimconsumergroup.com/ingredients/description)

Requirements for the Halal status of Sweet Whey powder(it is mostly used in food products not acid whey):

Starter culture bacteria such as Lactobacillus are generally desirable bacteria which provide texture, consistency of milk, ripening of milk and flavor for whey and cheese. Fisrt they are grown on media to multiply in numbers. These bacteria can be obtained from meat or milk source. Only bacteria obtained from milk source is Halal. The media upon these bacteria grow is made of milk or whey, yeast extract obtained from beer making processes or in some company or countries pork based Pancreatin(In USA, it is not use), lactose. Only Milk media is Halal or if Halal whey or lactose used then they are Halal. This media consists of above one or combination of few above ingredients.

Sister, starter culture bacteria do not coagulate protein of milk or make curd.

Rennet obtained from pork or beef stomach or zabiha beef stomach or microbial(yeast) is used to coagulate milk to produce curd. Only Zabiha cow rennet and microbial rennet are Halal. The water left after curd taken out is called whey. Then it is dried on spray dryer. This spray dryer should not be used to dry pork containg material because it is very hard to clean the spray dryer. It will contaminate Halal whey. Drum drying can be used. If the whey is certified Halal or Kosher(if they meet the Halal requirements) then it is Halal. This is the common procedure of making whey in USA and Europe.

Br. Abuhajira, I will send this information to Mufti Ibrahim Desi through www.askimam.org to correct his fatwa on whey powder. Any Ulema can go to our websites www.muslimconsumergroup.com or www.canadianhalalfoods.com for technical information or can write to me at halalfoods@hotmail.com

Sister, the pita bread is also contain yeast for fermentation of sugar. Only Indian/Pakistani Rooti or Parahata do not contain yeast and no fermentaion happens in rooti and parahata.

In USA, all the ingredients used in donuts and topping are Kosher certified, they used emulsifier from soy fat such as mono & diglycerides but I do not know they use stearic acid but if they use it will be from soy fat. I do not know the sources of ingredients in krispikreme made in Europe. I do not think they are kosher certified in Europe.

Krispikreme called me to Halal certify their donuts in Dubi or Abudhabi, I refused because the flavor in donuts and topping contains ethyl alcohol as a solvent.

Br Abuhajira honestly do you go to a Mufti or to a doctor for curing the disease and doctors make decisions based on their education and experience. When doctors can make decision whey not a food scientist make decision on food products which he or she deals every day. I agree Islamic scholars has the more knowledge of Sharia than a common muslim. As I said before a food scientist can take the advise of Islamic scholars if he does not know the impact from religious point of view on food products. The food products which do not require advise from Islamic scholars because of its simplicity, he or she can make the judgement on its Halal status based on Quran, Hadith and science. I do not agree that a food science is a information source. Please do not follow jewish laws for example which requires only Sachet (A Rabbi who slaughter animal) can slaughter animals not a common Jew. There are certain area where Islamic scholars only can make decision not a common muslim. Yes, I agree all professional(docters, engineer, food scientist, chemists) can give the Halal status based on Quran, Hadith and science. I do not have any hidden objective for this discussion, I am eduacting Muslims about Halal foods since many years without any financial gain. I am doing this job for the sake of Allah. I do not know what date I send e-mail to Daruliftaa.

Please do not label me to follow American policy, I think you have gone beyond the healthy discussion. You have to be sorry for writing that I am following the American policy. I do not think that you do not have fair thoughts. I do not care about accepting my point of view I am not that hungry for that. It is up to Muslims whether to accept my opion or not. I am just bringing the fact that alcohol from any source are same scientifically and they are Haram. It is not a crime that a food scientist can make the decision on Halal status of a food product based on Quran, Hadith and science without going to a mufti. Why you are ignoring the Hadith " Every intoxicant are Haram". There is no special alcohol obtained from grape and date. It happens that in those days Quamer is made from grape and date. I am not looking for my work to be acredited, that is not my objective. My objective is that Muslims should bring only Halal foods from supermarkets to their homes and masajid. Alhumdulillah our website has over one half million hits every year, I have wrote and published 7 editions of Halal food book "A Comprehensive List of Halal Food products in US and Canadian supermarkets". Our website is recieved many e-mails from many countries including South Africa about Halal status of a food ingredient. I do not need any fame, I just want to serve Muslims for providing my food technology knowledge which Allah has given to me to spread among Muslims. You can not convience your opions to me nor me to you let Muslims decide about our opinions.

Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
Muslim Consumer Group
www.muslimconsumergroup.com

[Smabeabumjess]

Assalam O Alaikum Sister,

Br. Abuhajira, I will send this information to Mufti Ibrahim Desi through www.askimam.org to correct his fatwa on whey powder. Any Ulema can go to our websites www.muslimconsumergroup.com or www.canadianhalalfoods.com for technical information or can write to me at halalfoods@hotmail.com

Please use the alinaam@alinaam.org.za for sending any research or emails to Mufti Saheb. Inshallah it will reach him.

Br Abuhajira honestly do you go to a Mufti or to a doctor for curing the disease and doctors make decisions based on their education and experience. When doctors can make decision whey not a food scientist make decision on food products which he or she deals every day. No I do not.. but if I have to know whether a certain treatment is shar'an acceptable in shariah.. the doctor is no help to me. I have to take a Mufti's qawl on it. Just in the other thread someone asked if Transvaginal ultrasound breaks a fast. Which doctor will have that information if not a Mufti.

Why do you have to rest the decision making on the food scientist, when he is not aware of the religious implications? Just like you are not aware of the complete usools of deen, we cannot expect you, even with your intensive knowledge of food, to know what became impermissible when. Or what became permissible when.. This is why you, based on your own limited knowledge, completely ignored a major opinion within the madhab, and stuck to your own limited understanding of deen. While the decision made by the Ulama I have mentioned above regarding ethyl alcohol, is sound within the usools without blemish.

I agree Islamic scholars has the more knowledge of Sharia than a common muslim. As I said before a food scientist can take the advise of Islamic scholars if he does not know the impact from religious point of view on food products. Nope you didnt, you side stepped a mufti's right to rule a fatwa and handed it to a food scientist. Please read your own posts again.. I have even pointed out three instances where you have said it clearly and openly.. and you will say it again before the end of this paragraph.

When a Marketing manager sends out a group of information seekers in the market.. and these seekers go around the country gathering information from the field market itself. After data gathering, who has more knowledge of the market.. the manager OR the information seekers? Obviously the knowledge of the core market is with those in the market.. but the manager knows how to utilize that information in conformity with the marketing strategy at hand, and the mission statement of the company being run. Such the is the situation here.. you as a food scientist are an information seeker.. a specialist within the bounds of learning food types, its intricacies and inner workings... you collect and research the data and then supply it to your managers.. i.e the Ulama. The understand the strategy and the company principles more than you because their speciality lays there. Using your data they will form a marketing decision(fatwa) which will help attain the goals of the company (fulfiling the rules of sharia).

This is as easy and ilustrated I could make it for you.. if you do not understand.. then it is not a fault within me.

The food products which do not require advise from Islamic scholars because of its simplicity, he or she can make the judgement on its Halal status based on Quran, Hadith and science. Those food products which do not require any guidance.. are yet sought guidance about.. What do you want the mufti to say when he is asked about a food question.. "errr.. sorry we dont deal with halal haram.. kindly contact dr so and so" ? Br. be realistic.. masses in the ummah trust the Ulama and Muftiyaan much more than they trust the secular doctors. Yes, your research is all good.. but that does not guarantee that your decision on all islamic issues related to food will be correct too. Yes , go ahead give advice.. no one is stoping you.. but do not do so in the guise of "Fatwa".

I do not agree that a food science is a information source. Please do not follow jewish laws for example which requires only Sachet (A Rabbi who slaughter animal) can slaughter animals not a common Jew. As thorny as it may feel in your throat, but its the truth.. that the right for fatwa is for a Mufti ... Do you not see he is called Mufti for this very reason. And any and every muslim can slaughter provided it is done by the rules of Sharii Zabeeha and not food science..

There are certain area where Islamic scholars only can make decision not a common muslim. Yes please enumerate for us how limited and restricted your view of the Muftiyaan is.. what is "certain area" which you have generously allowed a mufti to make decisions for..

Yes, I agree all professional(docters, engineer, food scientist, chemists) can give the Halal status based on Quran, Hadith and science. I do not have any hidden objective for this discussion, I am eduacting Muslims about Halal foods since many years without any financial gain. I am doing this job for the sake of Allah. Alhamdulillah you are doing it for sake of Allah.. now if only you did not see your own understanding to be so concrete as to overthrow the Mufties of deen.

Btw, last time when you asked Mufti Desai an opinion in a religious matter, how much did he charge you? Dont wory it was a rhetorical question.. What I mean is.. we all are sacrificing our time and money and life for sake of Allah.. without taking dimes.. that in itself is not the criteria for being correct in ones endeavor.

I do not know what date I send e-mail to Daruliftaa. A generic guess would also help me search for the email.. because If you had sent something about it.. I would surely have known of it.. Anyway.. out of sincerety .. you can send it again..

Please do not label me to follow American policy, I think you have gone beyond the healthy discussion. You have to be sorry for writing that I am following the American policy. I do not think that you do not have fair thoughts. I do not care about accepting my point of view I am not that hungry for that. It is up to Muslims whether to accept my opion or not. I am sorry if that hurt you.. but better from a sincere person than from some one out to dupe you.. Br. we know you dont care of being accepted.. therefore there is no point typing the same line again and again.. not in different threads .. rather in the same thread.. and in the same post.. It just feels that you are trying to push your opinion down my throat.. so I had to choke.

I am just bringing the fact that alcohol from any source are same scientifically and they are Haram. The first part is correct and the second part is disputed with difference of opinion.. So the second part cannot be a fact. You have misunderstood its shar'an implications and thus cannot grasp the difference of opinion.

Tell me brother.. Quran says Sayd al Bahr is halal.. Is whale a sayd al bahr? If so according to which madhab's definition? And which ever definition that is.. why not the others?? are they any less "factual" than the one you would pursue?

It is not a crime that a food scientist can make the decision on Halal status of a food product based on Quran, Hadith and science without going to a mufti. Is it a crime for a car sales man to give your prescription medication for Glycoma? If so, then yes it is a crime for a food scientist to make a decision n Halal status of a food product based on Quran, Hadith... If you wish to make a decision on the basis of Science.. then sure.. do so.. and do it without going to a mufti. But when it comes to Quran and Hadith.. you are the car sales man and Mufti is the Doctor to give the prescription of Glycoma..

Why you are ignoring the Hadith " Every intoxicant are Haram". Why are you ignoring the fact that you are trying to understand Arabic here and Khamr is a specific word for the juice of grapes. while other names are given seperately for others types of fermented juices... like Sakar, Naqee'...

btw.. can you give reference or arabic for the above hadeeth and then inshAllah I can talk about it..

There is no special alcohol obtained from grape and date. It happens that in those days Quamer is made from grape and date. 1. It is not Quamar.. It is Khamr with Khaa. Quamar is something completely different.
2. All the linguist in arabic are unanimous that Khamr is from juice of grapes. and is a special name for the juice made from grapes. It is not even a name for the juice for the dates - that is refered as either Naqee' Tamar or Nabeez Tamar... for non grapes there are other names.. then how can one say that they only could have khamr from these two dates and grapes!!

I am not looking for my work to be acredited, that is not my objective. My objective is that Muslims should bring only Halal foods from supermarkets to their homes and masajid. Alhumdulillah our website has over one half million hits every year, I have wrote and published 7 editions of Halal food book "A Comprehensive List of Halal Food products in US and Canadian supermarkets". Our website is recieved many e-mails from many countries including South Africa about Halal status of a food ingredient. I do not need any fame, I just want to serve Muslims for providing my food technology knowledge which Allah has given to me to spread among Muslims. You can not convience your opions to me nor me to you let Muslims decide about our opinions. Br.. you are the agressive party here.. you do not need to pleed innocence here. Our Ulama hold their opinion..open and clear.. You deny it so much that you are calling their opinion completely wrong and baseless. Again Alhamdulillah you are doing such good work, now if only there was a sense of accepting difference of opinion in you.. it would play great for future benefit of the ummah.

You told Muftiyaan that ethyl alcohol is same as from dates and grapes.. and intoxicates.. they accepted.. but ruled that if it is not from dates or grapes it does not follow the Hukm or hurmat rather is subjected to the Illah of intoxication as is the usool of Qiyas. Thus they ruled of its permissibility.. now if you follow the view of some other Ulama.. good for you.. but that does not invalidate the opinion of our Ulama who are as sound and as establish within shariah.

[MaugleeRobins]

Br: Abuhajira,

Your comments are much appreciated.

I pray that Allah tala blesses our brother Abuhajira, keeps him steadfast on deen and makes him a very knowledgeable and muttaqi alim.

[Karensmith]

Assalam O Alaikum Br. Abuhajira,

I thinks we have discussed a lot. I will keep my opinion as is and you can not change it and I will follow my ulema and their advise.

I have send the e-mail to Mufti Ibrahim Desi at the e-mail address you have given to correct his fatwa on whey powder and also asked him if he need any technical information on food products he can contact me.

Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
Muslim Consumer group
www.muslimconsumergroup.com